300SDL engine seized?
 

The other day I started up my SDL and drove into town -about 4 miles. I noticed smoke coming from under the hood and pulled over. Fuel return line between #4 and #3 injectors ruptured -I found rat chew marks upon later inspection. I luckily found another piece of tubing in my tool box, installed it and drove off. About a mile later the car suddenly slowed -no bad noises or uneven firing -I pulled over and the engine stalled. I figured I must have knocked a fuel line loose so I popped the hood and checked -nothing. I tried re-starting, but the engine cranked very slowly. I noticed it was a little hot, so I let it cool and tried starting again -nothing -barely a crank. I checked charge and connections and found everything fine. I tried manually rotating the engine backwards via the serpentine belt -my breaker was a home -but it would not budge. The engine does not appear to have gotten very hot (I know what that looks like), the oil is fine -no water emulsion, and the coolant is good too. I had the car towed home and there it sits until I can get to it.

Since experience tells me that the broken return line and the engine seizure are most likely related, I am working under the assumption that I have a case of fuel hydrolock, rather than something mechanical. Does anyone here know best how to check for this? This SDL has 394,000 miles on it and has been running like a top nonstop until this happened.

How could a broken fuel return line lead to engine seizure?

Thanks in advance

Pull injectors & see if it will turn over w/ breaker.

It can't.

You had coolant. How hot is a little hot on the gauge?
You had oil. Did you have oil pressure?

Can you turn it over with your breaker bar now?

Clambake,
Welcome to the forum.
By now you will have realized that we are a helpful group & often lightning fast with responses.
It may also have become clear that the more information you put in your post, the better the answer you get.
If you provide the details requested, it will allow much better diagnosis.
It would be interesting to know what else the rat chewed & where it is now.

Good luck with your car.

There is no way you could turn a motor over by pulling on a serpentine belt, it would have to make zero compression to do that, and even then I doubt you could turn it over with your hand on a belt.

Pull the injectors out and see if it turns over with a breaker bar on the balancer.

Thanks for the lightning fast replies!

Ok -so I removed the glow plugs -all bone dry. Starter was still not able to rotate the engine with them out, but I could with my breaker -a little stiff, but I turned it at least one rotation. Does anyone know roughly what torque reading I should have without the glows in?

The temp reached when engine stalled was between 100 and 120 -nothing cataclysmic, but hotter than normal.

Seems like I've had a false alarm, at least as far as the engine is concerned. I'll take the starter out and get it tested -BUT a bad starter does not cause a stalled diesel. Perhaps a large air pocket from the broken fuel return line caused the stall, and a starter saturated in fuel caused the inability to restart?

Any ideas? I would like to know if my hypothesis about the broken return line causing the stall makes any sense -if it does not, I will never know when this problem could resurface.

I sure hope when rotating the engine you were turning it CLOCKWISE and not backwards. The engine's proper rotation is towards the driver side of the car. Never turn it backwards!

I agree with pawoSD, backward rotation is not a good thing. but since you were trying to rotate by hand with the belts, it's unlikely you did much damage there.
I don't see the fuel return lines causing an issue either. with the glows out, all you'd have is ring resistance. rotating the motor by hand with a bar on the crank bolt should not be difficult. possibly 25 foot pounds? your starter could have siezed onto the flywheel, and it could be dragging the motor down though.
how was the oil consumption on your vehicle?

It does sound like air in the system... I don't know in the SDLs, but the SD has a pump on the driver's side of the engine, you can try that if you have it... See if the starter cranks off the car (easy to do with good jump starter cables, just match the + and - poles and do a short touch-and-go)
If it's air, it will eventually start again once you get it out :)

OK -just to clarify -does anyone here believe that a wide-open fuel return line rupture between #3 and #4 can cause an OM603 engine running at freeway speeds to lose power to the point of stalling?

No. Unless it causes you to run out of fuel.

Reading through the post, I am wondering if it is possible that it could be something else...

Not trying to scare up an issue but here is a thought, could it be something else is binding like the IP?

I noticed you said you pulled glow plugs, maybe that doesn't release enough resistance? A previous post had mentioned pulling the injectors rather than the glow plugs. Might just be nit-picking. Also, test your starter and see how many amps its pulling (if you have the equipment to do so.) You could have two separate problems in starting, but that doesn't explain the stalling out.

Example:
 

With the Injectors out of the Head you should be able to turn the Engine
(Clockwise,Facing the Vacuum Pump end of the engine.)
by hand with a 1/4 inch ratchet,easily.

Zomezing,Other than the Fuel Hose (Return type?) breakage is affecting
your engine.

With the Injectors out the engine should spin very fast when driven by the Starter.

Just a long shot but maybe your AC compressor is stuck on and siezed? Would cause drag on the belt as you attempt to crank the motor.

wellll, IDK about turning the engine with a 1/4" ratchet, but it should not be difficult with any decent ratchet... probably in the 20foot lbs pressure range. if you can't turn it with the GP's out, and the belt disconnected, the next thing I'd do is pull the starter.

A seized accessory is a posibility as I remember he quoted some smoke under the hood. Or the smoke may have just been a figment of my imagination. I am not going to go back and read the thread again.

Other than that a turned rod bearing becomes an unfortunate possibility as well.

Barry
Are rolled rod bearings common in the OM603?
I had A '57 Dodge panel many years ago that "rolled" a rod bearing -and this problem I'm having with my SDL is almost identical, except with the Dodge it just happened out of the blue (I was later told that that engine is prone to rolled rod bearings), and with the SDL the problem was immediately preceeded my a broken fuel return line.

Accessories all turn when I rotate the engine by hand. I also removed and tested the starter and it seems to be running fine.

Turning engine by hand with the glow plugs out takes about 70lbs with my torque wrench.

something's restricting your rotation
 

70Ft Lbs to rotate a OM603 (With it's GP s OUT) is an awful lot of force...

And to answer your question,NO the OM603 s are not noted for Spinning Bearings.
(But Extreme Low (Or No) Oil Pressure will "Spin One" @ Highway Speeds
in a heartbeat.)
[I've never heard of a "Quiet" Spun Bearing,usually they're Screeching At You.]

As someone here already stated I would check and make sure the starter solenoid is not still engaged as well as loosening all accessory belts to check for any seizure of one of them. How is the oil level ( I know it is not at temp etc ) it should at least be on the dipstick.

Not enough information just because the accessories turn with your heavy effort as well. Remove the surpentine belt to check each one individually for excessive drag. You have to be sure before moving on. No the 603 is not notorious for turning a rod bearing. This does not mean it cannot happen. All that is certain at this point is that there is far too much drag present.

"As someone here already stated I would check and make sure the starter solenoid is not still engaged"

Starter has been pulled and works fine.

"How is the oil level ( I know it is not at temp etc ) it should at least be on the dipstick."

Oil level is good.

Barry -I removed the belt and now the torque is closer to 50lbs -all accessories spin easily individually. There is a squeek from inside the engine while turning.

A single Squeek?
 

"There is a squeek from inside the engine while turning."

If you could rotate the engine at say 250 RPM would it be a LONG drawn out Squeek?

(Un-Lubricated Surface, Bearing?)

"If you could rotate the engine at say 250 RPM would it be a LONG drawn out Squeek?"

I don't know -but when the engine "seized" on the freeway there was no noise or irregular firing, just increasing power loss over the course of 2 or 3 minutes, stall, and slow rotation -with no squeaking -upon my attempt to immediately restart it.

I wonder if there is any possibility that my cylinder walls have been "coked" from bad fuel or overheated oil or something? This all did start with a fuel problem. Anyone had any experience with coked cylinder walls?

How bad an idea would it be to inject a LITTLE "Sea Foam" into the glow plug holes and (leaving them out of course) rotate by hand to see if that frees things up any? I'd rather that be the problem than a spun bearing I think.

If you're gonna "Soak" the Cylinders (Sans G.P s)
 

No Seafoam !!!

Kroil or Aerokroil
http://www.kanolabs.com/

Remove G.P.s. Fill cylinder with Kroil. Let sit as long as possible(2-3 days)
Then use the Starter to rotate the engine and Blow Out the Kroil (Rags,Rags,Rags). Change Oil+ Filter. Re-Install G.P.s

'Can't hurt

(But,I'm afraid to mention that it's beginning to sound like a Lubrication Failure.)

The return hoses leaking on the injectors have no possible bearing on the excess friction problem unfortunatly. They are two absolutly separate issues.

Hearing a squeek with the accessory belt off when turning is not the best.

A semi seized injection pump is also another possibility but almost never happens. I do not know the layout of your engine but if possible with part of the oil pan removed you might establish the location of the squeek. Best attempted with two people.

Thanks Compress -I tried it out and turning the engine by hand IS easier -now around 30 lbs and dropping. I'm hoping it's bad fuel glazing and not oil related. I have always been consistant about changing the oil and filter, but I am not sure about the guy who had it before me. One clue to the fuel glazing possibility would be that I have never let the car get below 1/8th of a tank except on that day. Maybe there was something nasty just waiting below an 1/8th of a tank?

"The return hoses leaking on the injectors have no possible bearing on the excess friction problem unfortunatly"

Yeah -it's starting to look like this situation could be one of those virtually impossible mechanical coincidences, unless it is the scenario I outlined above, in which the the link would be the leak dropping the fuel tank level down to where something nasty lay waiting to be sucked up into the system.

Oh -and the squeak has subsided along with turning the engine by hand getting easier.

Take off the fuel cap and smell for gasoline. Just a thought.

With 394,000 miles and as far as I know the tank has never been drained, who knows what is in there.

I put the starter back in today and the engine spins pretty good now. I ordered new glow plugs and will reassemble when they get here, drain the tank and purge all the lines, replace the primary and secondary filters and put in fresh diesel. Is there anything else anyone can think of I should do before I fire it up?

Crank the engine with the starter to see if oil pressure builds. Something or other caused the episode on the highway.

Four hundred thousand if the engine has not been rebuilt or changed is getting up there.

Excellent !
 

CB,

What a Relief!

"Crank the engine with the starter to see if oil pressure builds."

Good point -I could've just looked down and seen, if I had only thought of it when I had it spinning -I didn't even look at the tach. I'll try when I get home. I hope I don't regret ordering those GPs because of what I see.

"Four hundred thousand if the engine has not been rebuilt or changed is getting up there."

There is no record of this engine having had anything major done to it, but it has been running very well, with very little oil usage, for the three years I've owned it.

"What a Relief!"

I hope so -sure looks promising. I know from experience though that even if it fires up and runs fine, I'm going to be steering with my fingertips and the radio off for at least the next 6 months.

Well -no oil pressure with starter spinning engine with GPs out, but no tach reading either. Is the engine turning too slow to build pressure or is the oil pressure reading bypassed during starting? I don't remember noticing before. I hope it's not a spun bearing.

You should get oil pressure from cranking, it could take longer to build though because of the slower turning (5 seconds?). If you had drained/refilled the oil it could take a really long time to show.

Should I be getting a tach reading as well? I did not drain and refill the oil.

Well I may have goofed. If the oil sender is electric. When cranking the gauge may stay low because of low available voltage. Or itis electrically locked out when cranking as another member suggested.

Forgot you had a newer model with a serpentine belt. The quickest test i can think of to eliminate that effect. Remove the oil pressure feed wire from the sendor. Hook an ohmeter on the sendor to ground. Cranking the engine should change the ohm reading.

These engines start to make oil pressure as soon as you start cranking. Or a very few seconds later. Or just start the engine and shut it down if no oil pressure is indicated in five seconds.

Tach reading when cranking is subjective at best. Cranking rpm is not all that fast. Or once again low available voltage while cranking may effect it. Or the tach circuit may be electrically disabled as well when cranking. I think your problem is getting narrowed down hopefully.

I do not own a 603 for comparison purposes. At that milage dropping the oil pump drive chain is a real possibility. Few people ever think to check them unless in the area for another issue. They can wear out and break.

I have changed my mind a little. Especially after reading post number twenty nine. You do not want to start the engine if the rod bearings are dry. First the proof or lack of oil pressure must somehow be established when cranking.

Even if it is just loosening off the oil pressure sendor or removimg it and having a stream of oil come out when cranking. Get someone to hold a cup to minumise the mess if it is flowing. The same person of course will inform you it is present. Remember no longer than five seconds probably less in reality the oil output should be present.

If the glow plugs are still out leave them out for the test.

OK -so I have finally been able to get back to work on this car.

I checked oil pressure while cranking using the Ohmmeter method mentioned above. I started with 8 Ohms before cranking, 13 Ohms while cranking and 11 Ohms after cranking. From this I assumed I had oil pressure.

So I reassembled and fueled the engine and put Lubrimoly in the main filter and attempted to fire it up a number of times. No luck -I got some popping and some smoke, but nothing else -and most disturbingly a "bonk,bonk,squeak......bonk,bonk,squeak", and slower-than-normal cranking with a freshly charged battery.

Looks like gunk in the tank was NOT the problem.

Could I have skipped a tooth on the timing chain? Does that make any sense? I am really puzzled.

Sounds like a spun bearing from your description.

Wouldn't a spun bearing result in zero oil pressure?

No, I don't think it would cause a loss of cold engine oil pressure. Of course we had only a very ineffective read on oil pressure. I would follow Barry, use his plan, remove the oil pressure sender switch and see if it blows oil. If it does you have oil pressure, and yes you might have a bad or spun bearing. Seems you are one of those owners who needs help and yet are determined to do it your way. Smell the fuel tank for gas! Oh, OK, it has gone a half million miles, who knows what is in there? There better be only one thing in there, diesel. Take a sniff. Smell any gasoline?

"Seems you are one of those owners who needs help and yet are determined to do it your way"
Junqueyardjim -I would understand your impatience with me more if this was not the first post you've made with regards to my problem. Others have been very helpful and at least not to my knowlege concerned with the sequence of steps I have chosen to make in the diagnosis of my car's problem -the sequence of which has been at least partly based upon the extreme weather conditions in my area and the fact that the car is out in that weather. I had some indication that the problem was fuel related so I checked that first -nobody else seemed to think it a bad idea.

But thank you very much for the rest of your input. No, the fuel obviously does not smell of gas. Gas would float on diesel, so much of what suggested it was fuel related would not have made sense. High mileage gas cars often have sludge (rust and just random bits that get introduced every time the cap is taken off) that does not show until the tank is below a certain level, that can stop an engine as mine stopped. I have now determined that it is not a fuel problem, so if what you say is true about there not being any reason for there not to be oil pressure with a spun bearing, then that's what I will look at next instead of the other possibilities.

Nope, I drove my 617 with a bad bearing for about 10 miles without losing oil pressure. I new the engine was trashed and it was making a horrible rapping sound, but it still had pressure.

Just to correct your thinking, oil will float on water, but gasoline does not float on fuel oil. Once mixed in by stirring or wave motion, it becomes an inseperatable "homogonized" mixture. Only a refinery could separate it out.

My point being that it would not sink to the bottom and fit the scenario in a way that would make any sense.

My thinking too, but thought maybe some new scientific discovery.

Charlie

A spun bearing might not decrease the oil pressure at all. The spun bearing can be obscuring the oil hole in the block if it is a main bearing, although a rod bearing is more likely in which case the oil is well distributed throughout the engine at that point and a spun bearing shouldn't be able to pass enough oil to drop the oil pressure to abnormal levels.

A spun bearing will often give the clunk-clunk-squeek sound as the rod moves around on the rotating crank through the irregular clearance, and squeek as it is binding in other directions. One of my brothers actually drove a Capri for months this way, ... really knocked once started. The car was worthless anyway (unlike yours).

Babymog
That's a good point -there is only that one little hole in the journal. Could be the half of the bearing that is still flush rotates and blocks it.

Do not use the starter before turning it over by hand first...
if you have some anomaly then you could bend a rod...