Goodbye R134a, hello HFO-1234yf
 

Since R134a is banned in all new cars in the EU this year, what does that mean for US delivered cars? Are we going to start seeing HFO-1234yf in cars here?

Based on everything I have been reading r134 is going to be getting phased out accross the board over the next year or so. I am thinking that yes, the cars coming over from Europe will have the new refrigerant.

I'm assuming that R134a will still be available for some time. Has anyone seen any info on the R12 -> HFO-1234 conversion possibilities?

Doesn't 1234 run at much higher pressures than 134?

I'll do some reading...

Looks like it's propane based. HA! How many times has that discussion come up :P

EDIT: On paper it looks like a nice gas, with cooling close to R12. I wonder what kind of oil you use, and if there are any material problems with older systems.

My SDL is 134 converted anyway. If there's little risk of the stuff eating my evaporator I'd love to try it.

-J

I had this discussion with an RTI Technologies rep when I bought a new machine a few months back, as it stands only EU has banned R134 but GM will start implementing 1234yf in their new cars over the next 2 years (just a rumor). As far as I know the European car dealers here in Ontario have started putting in orders for the new machines for 1234yf. As far as the gas goes it is supposedly backwards compatible with r134 but it will be completely phased out over the next 5-7 years (no accurate date on this). Just another note one 30lbs tank will supposedly sell for $2000-3000, yes that's not a typo.

Ya, doing some reading it seems the cost of this stuff is 10x the cost of 134A (!!!!). They are also not allowing retrofits.

Great.

-J

here in Canada or at least in Ontario they will allow retrofits but I can't confirm this yet

WOW, interesting. I might be wrong, but as I remember here in Kali land, there is a $10 core fee on ea can of 134A, and is refundable when the can is returned. the catch..............have to use it with in 3 mo, or loose the deposit. they don`t want people to stock pile the stuff.

You guys in other states better be picking this stuff up while it is available, or will be like R12, difficult to find, and pricier down the road.

Charlie

Again from what I have read they are going to put a stiff tax on the 134 to put it in approximately the same price range as the new stuff. This is supposed to prevent the price issues that r12 had when they phased it out. Not sure how it is supposed to help with the hi tax.

I think I will start buying cans of R134A now.

sams club still sells the 30 pound jugs for 170ish...

No refrigerant has been banned. They can still be bought, sold and used in any vehicle. R12 is still available and R134a will be available for decades to come as well.

R12 has been banned from manufacture. Is 134A far behind? From what I read this morning no. But they'll probably tax it to bring the cost up. That's the annoying part, the only foreseeable end to all of this is an increased cost to repair an AC system.

-J

That is not true for outside the USA and its not banned from sale.

I didn't say it was banned from sale. I said the cost is going to go up.

Right now putting r-1234yf in a w123/124/whatev in place of r12 or r134a doesn't seem to be a possibility. The EPA hasn't approved of it for any retrofitting, mostly because they haven't approved of system requirements.Concerning Cost
Further on in the document it stated that only large containers (20lb. or more) would be available and that one would have to contact the manufacturer of the refrigerant to get access to any smaller containers.

So as of right now, unless you buy a container of 20lb. or more YOU CAN'T PHYSICALLY PUT THIS IN YOUR CAR. Not to mention that the EPA has not yet approved of any fittings for smaller containers, so acquiring a smaller container from a foreign source would technically be illegal, but I'm not sure that's really a concern on this board.

I've read quite a few articles on this stuff, and doubt in the near future it will be available to any but auto manufacturers.
the UL listings and design systems are waaaay off the charts for retrofits. (multi million licensing fees etc...) keep in mind it's a PROPANE refrigerant, that is illegal as a retrofit just like envirosafe is in the US... toss that in, and figure the markup we indi mechanics would put on 60/lb (134 is generally available at 3ish a pound, and the average price charged is 40/lb... so 1234y's 50/lb average price would put the retrofit price per pound at 600/lb... not bloody likely anyone is gonna pay that)

If I read this correctly 2013/2015 is the cut off for production of most HCFCs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Protocol

spec sheet on HFO-1234yf
 

Daimler ain't impressed. Seems they have raised concerns about it's flammability. Looks like all the other automakers are falling in line.

HFO-1234yf

I have a refrigerant license and I can buy R-12, in 30 lbs cylinders or 1 lb cans, as easily as I can obtain R134a.

How bout the HFO-1234yf Doc? How much is it?

Our suppliers have estimated $70.00 per pound (cost) and $150.00 (retail) when and if it comes to us....

thanks

I guess it has it's own machine?

That's what we are being told...

So I there's no legal dispute in the US over the new refrigerant like in Germany? I would not want to be working with this stuff.

Killer-Kältemittel - Achtung, Lebensgefahr! - YouTube

HFO-1234yf canister flammability test - YouTube

Mercedes-Benz Independent Study Finds New Refrigerant to Be Dangerous | eMercedesBenz

... not if you only have a $100 bill...:D

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True....
I can still buy 1 lb cans from Napa for $24.50/lb and from E-Bay for a little less. I Bought a 30 lb cylinder last month for $525.00.

guess i need to start hoarding r134 in addition to the r12, no?

yeah, the R12 jugs are all over the place in price this year... it's gone from 425 to 1100 to 550 crazy...

I don't know if stocking up on R134a is wise. I don't think we will ever see the rise in price like we did with R-12. I remember when it was 99 cents a can at K-Mart in 1985...

it was 6.00 a can last year, this year it is 19...

for the 12oz can...
retail that is.
I'm sure my distributor can get them for me by the case cheaper. I use jugs... just got one today for 115.00
134 hype will spike the price, but it'll stay around 200 I think.
R22 on the other hand...

Wow, they are not that much out here....yet!

yup. wallyworld price... the leakseal/coolstuff versions are over 34.00...

I just bought a 30lb bottle of r134 for $120. I need to start recovering my own r12 from all of these refrigerators I go through. I'd have an endless supply.

FYI
 

Because of the season, I am picking up some 30 Lb cylinders of 134A Thursday $99.00 each.
The Mcparts stores here are $19.95 + 6% tax for one pound cans. :eek:
No comment on R22 cost...

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Good prices....

Ah man, I wish it was still that way! I just want one little piddle can and a gauge to see if I can top my system off to work for the summer.....but as it stands I have to flip the coin....spend 60$ a can, hope it works or see it go into thin air...


Hey I just seen a commercial on TV....big lots has r134a for 6.77$ a can....

you can get one pound cans? all the cans around here are 12oz...

most friges have less than 1/2 a can in them... 5 to 8 oz... that's a LOT of recovering... test for burnout first!!!

In A/C terminology, a 12 ounce can is referred to as one pound (troy pound) as opposed to an avoirdupois pound where a pound is 16 ounces.

The new Robinaire A/C machine I was using recently would advance to the next full pound at 12 ounces, FWIW anyways....

... this is news to me. my refrigerant scale goes 16oz to the pound...
then again, I've only been doing this work for 29 years... perhaps I've missed something. automotive cans are rated by troy oz? seriously?:confused:

methinks you are mistaken... the only thing I've ever seen measured in troy oz was precious metals. (now R12 is pricey, but I'm thinking it's still measured by weight and the 16oz/LB )

No argument here, just telling you what I have experienced personally. Like our Robinaire unit advances to the next full pound after 12 ounces.

How would you explain a 12 ounce can when they were always referred to as a 1 pound can????

It doesn't matter either way, I'm just telling you why I call a 12 ounce can a 1 pound can...FWIW anyways...

I see quit a few 30 lb tanks of R134a selling on Craigslist around that price, but you got to watch out for the made in China stuff as I read it could be an inferior product.
A few years ago I got my DuPont Suva for $130, just has 1/4 fitting though, and I was lucky to buy an almost full tank of Arkema Forane R22 for a $100.
R12, been good with that for a while. But would randomly pick some more up if I see a good deal.


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I'll bet the China refrigerants are horrible as their CV boots!!!

It's a good thing I don't own anything that takes R134a. I converted the 300SD back to R12 and I am very happy with it.

Sometimes a mix of propane and isobutane will give a pressure curve close to R12.

Typical fridges have about a pound. Older side by sides can have up to 2lbs.

What is burnout?

Hmm. all the commercial equipment I work on has very little factory charge. those tall glass door/wall beverage coolers in subway hold 5oz... and that's a cooler, with a large evaporator for commercial public CONSTANT door opening... of course, it's R134 also... I've not worked on R12 fridges in 20 years... and then they were Ice Cream dipper boxes... not really applicable to home fridge stuff.

Hi Guys

I see some A/C knowledge here

I have an R22 central air system at home, and it performance is terrible. I recharge my Mercedes with 134a real easy like, has anyone seen similar "can plus hose" kits for home system? Do I need anything special?

Home unit is same thing, just different to set up and different refrigerant.

The best thing you can do with an existing home unit that is cooling is to clean the evaporator and condenser real good. Get all the leaves and trash out/off of the outside unit. Try to have shade over it too.

Speaking of appliances like refrigerators, my R134a tank is set up for stationary units with the 1/4 inch fitting and got me thinking, I assume the appliance industry will also switch from R134a to HFO-1234yf once this becomes widely acceptable in the automotive field.


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