240d more clutch problems
 

In June 2011, I had the clutch pedal drop to the floor. I took the car to United Auto Repair on East 83rd St., NYC, and they replaced the master and slave (close to $500 p&l). I had to take it back immediately after for them to bleed the system correctly since I was getting a grind going into reverse. January of this year, the pedal went soft and I took it back to them. They replaced the master cylinder pro bono. A few months later, I'm again getting a grind going into reverse and nasty shifting in general. Pumping the clutch pedal a few times generally gets rid of the problem for a while. I've had it back to them to re-bleed the system and adjust free play -- to no avail.

I'm not visibly losing any clutch fluid, so I don't think it's a leak unless it's very small. What should be the next step in troubleshooting this irritating thing?

I feel like I've given them ample opportunity to fix this correctly, and I'm ready to try something else.

It does sound like an air issue if after a few pumps on the clutch pedal the symptoms go away.

Have you tried to bleed the system yourself? If a job's got to be done properly you've got to do it yourself!

Haven't yet. What is the best way to bleed it (OK, this question may start a holy war). I've heard that black magic and voodoo were involved in the process:
(1) From the slave cylinder "up" by connecting a hose to a brake bleeder and pumping the brake?
(2) From the slave cylinder "up" using a pressure bleeder?
(3) From the master "down" using a pressure bleeder on the reservoir cap?
(4) From the master "down" using a speed bleeder on the clutch slave nipp?

Also, should I remove all connections and teflon tape them to preclude air entering the system afterward?
Should I replace the hard-line between the master and slave to be safe -- maybe a pin hole leak is sucking air in there?

the symptom of curing the problem by pumping up the pedal also is indicative of an internal leak in the clutch master.

Which was supposedly "replaced" by the clowns at the shop less than 3 months ago. Do you think that I'd lose two masters in a year's time?!?

Really tempted to tear everything out (master, slave, and connecting hose), start from scratch, bleed the #### out of the system and hope for the best.

PS - where can I obtain a new clutch line? I can't find any on the usual parts sites online.

Spudrun, you do know that the reservoir on the firewall serves both clutch and brake, but the clutch portion is the very back part and it is behind a divider in the reservoir. When filling make sure that the rear portion for the clutch has it's part filled or you will be pumping air. In other words, with the clutch it is very important to fill the reservoir to the very top.

Yep - I do know and there's full fluid in both portions. Fluid level isn't the issue (wish it was!).

It does make me wonder too. Always ask for your old parts when getting things fixed.

Have a look and see if the master and slave look like new replacement parts. Plus the brand name on them if any.

I got a free new clutch master from somebody at one time. It looked really cheaply made overall. I forget the name though.

I took our toyota echo car in for the yearly safety some years ago. Was told It needed new rubber bushings in the lower a arms. Not available separatly but they would replace the arms for only 1200.00 plus tax. Declined their kind offer and went home. Ebay complete new a arm was fifty dollars each. Ordered two. Rubber bushings where also available for even less. Took me about two hours to change both of them out.

Now that auto service shop owner is spending a million dollars across the street from us. New house and major storage shed plus other improvements on 38 acres. He is paying cash so I wonder where the money came from as If I did not know. Every sucker that walked through his doors probably got the same basic treatment as me. I have little doubt I would have gotten the aftermarket a frames installed from him charging full price or more for toyota originals.

I think he has sold his service business and retired.. He must be approaching 35-40. Local dealer service is not much different either. Rip the hell out of anyone they can as a right of passage. Forget the oil changes even. They are now part of a vehicle check for over a hundred dollars.No just oil changes alone available. Even if the car is new and under warranty. Three quarts of oil and a filter basically. If they find anything else it is extra. What are you going to find on a six month old car? I have finally arrived at the conclusion some people just like to be abused. It must make them feel better. That or they know nothing about mechanical things and as soon as this is noticed they are gouged.

Except for the manditory safety checks my cars never see the inside of repair shops anymore. Every last one of them locally are copying each others practices.

Always "from the bottom up" option (5) is now my new favorite way. The pump oil can, forget the pressure bleeder. The brake slave is fine but with the oil can you only have one hose to attach. You better learn to do this yourself, i think those guys dont know what they are doing.
I doubt you need a new line.

^^^

The owner of the shop actually seems like a decent guy and really did try to be helpful -- I just don't think that he's seen any manual 240d's nor knows what to do with that particular can of hydraulic worms.

To be clear, there was a charge for the initial work, but not a dime for any of the follow-ups, so I don't think he's deliberately trying to play me. He seems as flabbergasted as I am with the stupid thing.

spdrun,
Welcome to the hair-pulling club of MB clutch bleeding. With help from many posts here, I've probably got 15 hours invested in club membership dues.

Sounds like they actually got it to bleed right for at least a period of time, so air is getting in somewhere. Getting air in is unfortunately a leak somewhere in the circuit (slave, master, hardline between them, or maybe the soft line from the reservoir). Take a quick look under your driver's kick panel (you may not need to remove it to see) to check that your master is actually new AND dry everywhere. Then climb under the passenger side...actually, you can probably see it from the engine bay, and find the slave cylinder on the side of the tranny. There is a hardline that crosses over the top of the tranny, with a few connections that could probably go bad. BGKast had that happen to him, see link below.

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/179410-83-240d-clutch-just-went-out-slave-cylinder.html

My nightmare was I couldn't bleed the system, from above, from below, unless I backed out bolts on the the master and the slave several turns. Master was a crappy local part. Slave I actually bought here. Of course the slave failed 200 miles after the new master went in (you've already done the smart thing and replaced both at once) I must have soaked a quart of brake fluid into my clothes, my face and my driveway that winter...Good luck, ask questions.

OK, it's leaking from the base of slave cylinder. This is actually a good thing, since I know where the leak is coming from. Really hope that the replacement part that he installs will do better :)

Its always good to to pin point the problem, it was leaking underneath the car then?

Here is a You Tube video on what Stevo mentioned about using a oil can and bleeding from the bottom up. this is a very good demonstration oh how to do it.

BMW, VW, Porsche Clutch Bleeding - YouTube



Charlie

Thats a good video, thanks


A while back someone posted how they used a grease gun instead of a pump can, which might be the way to go except it takes two hands. Its hard to find a decent pump can, seems most of what you see now is cheap junk. The first one I tried from HF leaked like crazy. This way sure beats dealing with two different size bleed nipples and tiny hose clamps.

I've been useing the oil pump can bleeding method for over 30 years. It is almost fool proof. The hardest thing is finding a good oil pump can that has a large enough capacity. If you run out of fluid during the bleed, you end up pumpinig air into the lines. This usually only happens when you are pumping a lot of fluid into long brake lines. I have even bled brake lines on aircraft this way. Good Luck!

I spent allot of time getting the brake slave to clutch slave method down but it only took one time with the squirt can to see thats the way to go, sooo much easier and, yes, apparently pretty fool proof.

Update: took it in this morning. The shop owner showed me the part that he was going to install. Definitely OEM. The "seal" (dust boot?) at the end had a little crease at the edge, but otherwise it looked good.

Got the car back this evening and the clutch works well. Engages right at the middle of the travel range, a bit of free play near the top but not excessive. Hope this repair holds, and kudos to United for standing behind their work.

Yes it is great to hear they stand behind their work. Sure beats a pile of manure situation that is all too common now. Kind of sad when manufacturers cannot manufacture a simple slave cylinder properly though. Your prior part was obviously defective from the start.

Glad to hear it worked out well. I ended up junking my 240D when I made the mistake of attempting to do clutch repair etc.

- Peter.

^^^

I'm thinking of doing so, or at least going to work on the car with a fire axe.

Didn't drive it for a few weeks, and when I get in to drive it, the clutch is as limp as a sclerotic old man's love noodle. This after having the aforementioned mechanic replace the slave cylinder twice and the master at least once.

*PUNCHES THE WALL!* Well, back to the mechanic on Monday, and he's probably quite sick of the sight of the car.

For a car that is so otherwise dirt simple, this is a vexing problem.

Lately my daily drivers have been old VW diesels with foolproof manual cable clutches. I keep a spare in the trunk. If it breaks, ya don't need any tools and it's even hard to get dirty.

I'm in the same boat. Replaced the master cylinder last summer with a proper German part, bled it out with the hose from the RF caliper, and was on m way again, and all was happy, more or less, for a couple of months, and then it went soft again. Bled it back, fine for a while, then back to bad again. Took out the slave and realized it was leaking, so replaced that with a new, OEM part, too. Since then, I have bled this stupid thing out again about every 6-8 weeks or so, can't find any visible leaks, but it always goes soft again in a pretty short time frame. Getting ready to go out there and tackle it again today, this time I'm taking everything apart and looking really closely for leaks.

Aside from troubleshooting an electrical/FI problem on an old Saab 99, this has been the most vexing and frustrating mechanical problem I've had to deal with in 30 years of working on cars! So much about this car is so straightforward, but this stupid clutch bleeding thing has me pulling my hair out.

Wow, this is a new one on me, thanks for the updates. I will be most interested in the outcome.

OK, just got done tearing mine all apart this time, and sure enough, there was evidence of slight leakage inside the boot of the master cylinder, even though it's only ten months old. There wasn't enough to leak past the boot and show anywhere outside of the cylinder, and not enough to visibly lower the fluid level, but clearly enough to get air inside.

I took the MC apart, and cleaned and rinsed it inside with clean brake fluid. You can see a little wear on the cylinder walls already. I also changed out the pushrod for the longer of the two, which more closely matches what was in there to begin with. I did that repair on the road, 600 miles from home and the internet, and was having a hard time fitting the long pushrod for some reason, so I used the shorter one.

I bled it up again, with the caliper, and now it's a working clutch again, although it releases pretty close to the floor. Clearly, I'm going to need another MC soon. And then I'll get to bleed it all over again.... :-(

Is there a place I can get just a rebuild kit for this MC? I can certainly hone it out and put new rubber in it, and I would rather do that than cough up for a whole new MC again.

I haven't checked it out but I understand that the M/S rebuild kit costs just about as much as a new M/S. I had a problem with a push rod once. I changed the clutch M/S but left the old push rod, it looked fine, but the clutch didn't work. Turns out the new M/S was a different brand and the push rod was a different length. Dont know if that relates to your problem.

Glad your back on the road.

The clutch did work initially when he repaired it. He replaced the cylinders, and the engagement point was dead-bang in the middle of travel, as it should be.

I'm having him re-do the job this Friday.
(1) New master -- under warranty
(2) New slave -- under warranty
(3) New metal pipe and rubber crossover hose -- ~$120
(4) New hose going from the tank to the fluid nipp on the master
(5) Pressure bleed the living bejeebers out of everything with fresh fluid, and I should have a new hyd system

At present the slave isn't leaking, and the clutch gets soft basically only in very hot weather (or fluid boiling?). Which points to internal leakage in the master's seals. But I'm having him re-do everything including the hyd line for peace of mind.

well, back at it again. couldn't find a rebuild kit for this thing, so I bought ANOTHER new MC, and just put it in today. Jacked up the front of the car, crawled underneath, did the whole hose between the RF caliper and the slave thing, had my wife pumping the brake pedal for a a while until the clutch pedal felt nice and firm. Put all the tools away, let the jack down, hopped in and the pedal was mushy.... ! Within the next few minutes, it was so mushy as to be useless again.

I'm starting to think that this stupid thing actually needs all four corners to be up on jack stands to do this job, like having just the front end up lets air stay trapped somewhere until you let it down.

I had to come in for a break before I can bear to look at it again, I'm so, so, so sick of doing this job. And I'm supposed to be leaving in MY car for a week tomorrow morning for a backpacking trip, but if I can't get this stupid 240D fixed, I'm going to have to give my car to my wife, and stay home and work on this until I get it fixed. Arg!

Again, this is absolutely the most frustrating mechanical problem I have EVER been plagued with.


UPDATE:

I went back out and this time jacked and blocked BOTH ends of the car up in the air so it sat level. When I cracked open the slave, there was a hiss of air coming out of it without any pressure on either pedal. Bled it out again, several rounds of pumping and checking, and now it's as tight as it's ever been. So, if you're reading this someday, and having the same troubles, try jacking the car up so it's level while you bleed it, and see it helps. I should have known, I had the same problem when I was bleeding the brakes, too, until I lifted all four wheels up to be level. Whew! Looks like I get to keep my car this week after all...