1965 190Dc Possible head gasket failure. Diagnosis help.
 

Five minutes after starting up this morning I was on a divided highway doing about 50 and plumes of white smoke started pouring out the back of the car. I had some loss of power intermittently with the plumes. Oil pressure and temp looked okay so I limped home (five to eight minute drive).

Got it in the garage and shut it down. There was coolant sprayed around the engine compartment. Oil level looked the same and I didn't see water on the dipstick. I had some pinhole leaks in the radiator before but there was water in a number of places and my radiator overflow had quite a bit of water in it. There were wisps of evaporating coolant coming off the hot parts of the motor.

What steps shall I take to diagnose this tonight? Drain the oil and look for coolant? What else might it be besides the head gasket?

Could the smoke have been coming from the engine bay and NOT out of the exhaust pipe?

I'd say you have to get everything dry under the hood and then start it up. If I were a betting man, I'd say NO to the head gasket and yes to a coolent leak in either a hose or the radiator.

It's possible, and of course I want that to be the case. The loss of power led me to think it was water in the compression chambers.

I know the radiator went from pinhole leaks to something more major. I guess I'll know when I start it up after work and see if anything comes out of the tailpipe.

X2 on a coolant leak and not a head gasket.

Got home and shined a flashlight into the radiator, nothing much in there. Checked the dipstick and saw nothing but oil on there. I added a gallon of coolant and glowed it up. First try it's acting as if seized and not turning over. Second try it started and no smoke came out of the tailpipe in 30 seconds so I shut her down. I looked it over again and the tried again and now it's acting as if it's seized, starter's working hard and it's not budging. Looks bad guys.

remove all four injectors and inspect for water in cylinders. hopefully its just hydrolocking, better than the engine actually locking up due to bearing failure or something like that.

This seems probable. I'm going to try to get this done this morning. Shall I try to turn it over with the injectors out?

Before cranking, lay a towel over the injector holes to capture the evidence.

Before work this morning I removed the fuel lines from the IP and the returns. What's the proper socket size for removing the injectors? I'll have to pick up a set of long sockets in the proper sizes.

The nuts holding the return lines were on there really good so I assume the injectors are going to be stiff as well. Is it appropriate to use a breaker bar here?

Any other tips are appreciated, I'm in new territory.

FYI
 

If coolant entered the oil pan................

The dip stick shows what is on TOP........

Oil floats on water = the oil pump pickup may be in coolant..........

Remove the drain plug, one quart off the bottom will verify this issue..

If there is no coolant in the oil, the bearings should be OK = proceed with cylinder head inspection and gasket replacement.

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http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/325016-1980-240d-cracked-cylinder-head-cavitation-damage.html

Here is a good thread to review, to overcome the FEAR FACTOR of a cylinder head gasket.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/325433-1985-300td-head-gasket-repair.html

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The first quart of liquid out of the pan was water. What's next? How much for a rebuilt 190D motor? Am I there yet?

Oh, I see $7k from mercedesengines.net

:sad2:

Answer
 

#1. Drain the cooling system.
#2. Drain the oil.
#3. Get the cylinder head off this weekend.
#4. Clean the oil filter housing.
#5. PRE SOAK the new oil filter before installing.
#6. Fill engine with CHEAP fresh oil.
#7. If there are no cracks and the the cylinder head is not warped:

#8. Be extreme; cleaning the parting surface of the engine block and cylinder head, until there is no possible trace of old gasket.

#9. Replace the cylinder head gasket.
#10. Install the cylinder head.
#11. Re-fill the cooling system.
#12. Try to start and run the engine.
#13. Run the engine for 3 - 5 minutes, change the oil and filter.
#14. If the oil comes out with no contamination you have done all you can.
#15. If the oil is still contaminated, repeat steps #2, 4, 5, 6, 12, 13.....

If the engine does not develop a true rod KNOCK within Eight hours or less of driving, 95% odds there is no serious damage.


********************************************************

If time, money and work space is not an issue, I would consider:
* Pull the engine.
* Remove the cylinder head for cleaning, testing, rebuild or replacement.
* Flush the engine oil galleries, the procedure is described in this thread http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/324783-1992-300d-2-5-vacuum-pump-failure-ball-bearings-fell-into-timing-chain.html
* Replace the rod and main bearings, again the procedure is described in this thread http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/324783-1992-300d-2-5-vacuum-pump-failure-ball-bearings-fell-into-timing-chain.html

Essentially this would roll back 50% of the engine wear factors at least 40 years.
NOTE: The remaining prime wear factors are rings, wrist pins, cylinder sleeves.

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Sir, you are my hero. I will begin Saturday afternoon after I pick up some additional tools and some cheap oil.

crossing my fingers for you & car
 

Good Luck. I knew as soon as you posted the first quart of liquid out of the oil pan was water.....there was more work to be done. Please keep your thread updated with your progress.

Will do. I'm going to need advice along the way.

This is the OM621. I removed the fuel lines and valve cover.

http://defcode.com/wiki/images/2/23/DSCF0040.JPG

I've started whunter's list by draining radiator and the remainder of the oil. I removed the oil filter (there seemed to be a bit of watery oil in there). I believe I'll need a 27mm deep socket to remove the injectors. I assume I have to also remove the glow plugs.

http://defcode.com/wiki/images/6/65/DSCF0050.JPG

The bolts holding the head on seem fairly straightforward on the driver's side. On the passenger side however I think I'm going to need a hex head with a long shaft to get these out. My regular socket hex head won't fit in there. Since I have to torque these again, what tools is right for a torque wrench. Perhaps there's a longer hex socket?

Tonight I sprayed down the bolts on the exhaust with penetrating oil. Any tips on head removal for this OM621, of course I've never done this before but I know I can do it.

http://defcode.com/wiki/images/1/1b/DSCF0044.JPG

I believe this is one of the spots that the radiator let go. About a half-gallon of water appears to have boiled over into the aftermarket overflow reservoir during the incident.

http://defcode.com/wiki/images/2/2b/DSCF0047.JPG

I think there was spraying out of this side as well as evidenced by the wetness under the hood. Shall I have it rebuilt or shop for a replacement?

Where can I get an OM621 head gasket? Is the Classic Center my only resource here?

Judging by his shiny the cam lobes are, I bet this thing was way over due for a valve adjustment....

Really really stupid question, but if you knew the radiator was leaking so bad, why did you never drop it off at a radiator shop to be recored?

The radiator wasn't leaking badly, there was a tiny pinhole leak on the driver's side that only dribbled. I'd planned on having it re-cored next month.

I removed the injectors to see if it was hydro-locked. It was. I put an old beach towel over the holes and a geyser of water threw the towel into the inside of the hood with only a slight pull of the knob. Looking into the pre-chambers I saw this:

http://defcode.com/wiki/images/thumb...x-DSCF0071.JPG

Closeups of the injectors:

http://defcode.com/wiki/images/thumb...x-DSCF0055.JPG

http://defcode.com/wiki/images/thumb...x-DSCF0059.JPG

http://defcode.com/wiki/images/thumb...x-DSCF0062.JPG

http://defcode.com/wiki/images/thumb...x-DSCF0065.JPG

I'm removing the glow plugs now, they're carbonized but they don't look like injectors. I've never seen anything like this before!

URGENT
 

Cover the injection pump ports, BEFORE trash gets in them...

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I will put a plastic bag over them right away.

Tonight I was able to get most everything disconnected from the head including the intake and the exhaust. I put the valve cover back on and a towel over the injection pump. I was able to evacuate the water from the pre-chambers without making a huge mess.

I plugged in my block heater for about 15 minutes while I removed the radiator. I was hoping it would evaporate some of the water. I'm reading up in this old Chilton's manual that came with the car about how to remove the timing chain from the cam sprocket.

I'm hoping to complete the removal tomorrow after work. I wonder if there's anything I should do to keep the internals lubricated, I can turn this thing over and I have one replacement oil filter on hand.

Yes
 

Use a shopvac to remove all possible coolant from the cylinders.
Never use any abrasive on the piston cylinder walls !!!

Cheap oil (don't care if it is ATF, engine or hydraulic) pour the cylinders full.
If you desire to take "extreme measures" (more money), fill the crankcase with diesel fuel during the time you are working on it, then drain over night before final assembly. Note: I save / reuse this batch of contaminated diesel in a pickle bucket for cleaning parts. :)

If you are wise:
* The cheap engine start up oil will run just long enough to reach full operating temperature and/or a total of two hours before it is (cheap oil) changed.
* You will change to your regular good quality oil (fresh filter) between 300 - 600 miles.

ANY time you plan to leave it more than six hours, apply a LIGHT coating of axle grease to the parting surface of the engine block and cylinder head to prevent corrosion.

Coat the camshaft and rockers with a heavy layer of axle grease, put it in a plastic bag.

Put the camshaft in a totally protected area:
* No danger of falling = it can break.
* No danger of scratching - gouging the cam lobes.

FYI if the camshaft is already damaged, catalogs claim MB# 6160510601 is available for roughly $170.00 USD.

"However" you will probably need the following ancillary parts to make the superseded camshaft fit correctly.

+1 A 621 050 07 97
+1 A 616 180 01 27
+2 N 000137 005201
+1 N 000137 006200
+1 N 000912 006066
+2 N 000933 005030
+2 N 071434 008122
+8 A 616 050 02 33
+8 A 615 053 01 20
+8 A 615 053 00 72
+8 A 153 990 02 51

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You don't have to go to the Classic Center. Gaskets are available from many parts sources that sell Mercedes parts. I'm sure this site can get them as well.

After you pull the head, you will want to check for cracks in the head and block. For the block, check for cracks that radiate from the cylinder, especially between cylinders. Cracks in the block are aways bad. For the head, check for cracks radiating out from the hole where the prechamber sticks out, and also between the valve seats. There will likely be cracks radiating from the prechamber, but if these cracks continue to a valve seat or are more than 1" long or so, that is not good.

Before replacing the head gasket, you definitely need to check to make sure the head and block are not warped with a precision straight edge. That is a lot of coolant so either the head gasket really blew or you have other issues, such as a warped head or block, or bad cracks.

Good luck.

Agreed
 

cylinder head gasket
MB# 6210161620

Here is what damage you need to look for on the cylinder head.

Cavitation
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/general-information/272132-cavitation.html

1980 240D CRACKED cylinder head + cavitation damage
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/325016-1980-240d-cracked-cylinder-head-cavitation-damage.html

1985 300TD head gasket repair
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/325433-1985-300td-head-gasket-repair.html


http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/252429-diesel-cylinder-head-issues-thread.html

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How do I remove the cam sprocket from the timing chain? Looks like I'm going to also need a 10mm hex key that will fit into my 1/2 breaker bar. This is frustrating if you've never done it before! The good news is that I got layed off today so I should have plenty of time.

FYI
 

You have E-mail to down load. :)

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you in the federales DrCherry? good luck on your repair, i imagine it'll be fine.

Not feds but the doomed newspaper industry.

Under the tutelage of whunter I was able to get the head off. Here is what I found.

http://defcode.com/wiki/images/thumb...x-DSCF0087.JPG

Water in this cylinder. Soaked it up with paper towel.

http://defcode.com/wiki/images/thumb...x-DSCF0091.JPG

Guys, I found the problem.

http://defcode.com/wiki/images/thumb...x-DSCF0093.JPG

These look a little dirty.

http://defcode.com/wiki/images/thumb...x-DSCF0094.JPG

http://defcode.com/wiki/images/thumb...x-DSCF0096.JPG

http://defcode.com/wiki/images/thumb...x-DSCF0097.JPG

http://defcode.com/wiki/images/thumb...x-DSCF0098.JPG

http://defcode.com/wiki/images/thumb...x-DSCF0099.JPG

http://defcode.com/wiki/images/thumb...x-DSCF0100.JPG

http://defcode.com/wiki/images/thumb...x-DSCF0101.JPG

As instructed, I coated the parting surfaces with gear oil and dumped inexpensive oil in the cylinders.

http://defcode.com/wiki/images/thumb...x-DSCF0110.JPG

Next steps: Clean the parting surfaces and the head and look for cracks. How much does it cost to get heads tested?

Here's a link to the super-duper closeup of the gasket failure.

http://defcode.com/wiki/images/9/96/DSCF0093.JPG

Good
 

Glad to see you are making progress.

I assume it was not a difficult job when you got into it..

As you will note from all of these links, your next step is extreme cleaning - inspecting the cylinder head parting surface for cracks.

If no cracks are found:
* Remove the valve springs, use a dial indicator to check the valve for slop in the guide.
* If the guides are bad = have the cylinder head serviced = new guides + reface the valves - seats.

With any luck, it should be running again in a few days. :D

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Sounds like you got lucky, in a way. At least it looks like nothing major. Once everything is cleaned up, definitely take a precision straight edge to check the head and block for warpage before going much further. Don't know the specs off hand, but usually can't have more than a couple thousands (maybe 3 or 4) variance. Since you have the cylinder head off anyway, I would do what whunter said and definitely take it to a machine shop and do a valve job (grinding valves and checking/replacing guides and seals), if your budget allows. Preventive maintenance. Using a 4-1/2" grinder with a fine wire brush, or hand brush, clean the head combustion areas to get them cleaned up. Cracks will usually be visible to the naked eye, but from the pictures, don't see anything major so far. Visually check prechambers to make sure balls inside are supported on both ends and not burnt and pitted. If they are not supported on both ends, the prechamber must be replaced. Also closely check end of prechamber that sticks into the combustion chamber for cracks between the holes. If there any cracks, this requires replacement as the end can break off and cause piston damage. Good job on the oil on the pistons. This should seep past the rings and keep them lubricated, hopefully displacing any antifreeze that seeped down.

Okay here is my catalog of cracks in the head. Continue cleaning or go in another direction?

There are two cracks between the end of a pre-chamber and the valve seat. All four seem to have cracks on the opposite side of the valves.

http://defcode.com/wiki/images/thumb...x-DSCF0122.JPG

http://defcode.com/wiki/images/thumb...x-DSCF0134.JPG

http://defcode.com/wiki/images/thumb...x-DSCF0125.JPG

http://defcode.com/wiki/images/thumb...x-DSCF0128.JPG

http://defcode.com/wiki/images/thumb...x-DSCF0136.JPG

http://defcode.com/wiki/images/thumb...x-DSCF0138.JPG

Replacment cylinder head required
 

The cylinder head is junk at this point.
Strip the parts for later need, including pre-chambers, plugs, and all studs.
You should be able to find a good used unit to replace it.

.

All right, thanks for the expert eyes on that whunter. I'm going to clean the top of the block and see if I can find any cracks.

Any science to doing this? Should I just leave the oil in the cylinders?

answer
 

Wipe them out, vacuum the perimeter gap around the piston.

Apply a light coat of axle grease to the cylinder walls and pistons.

Use plenty of razors while scraping the block face.

.

Like whunter said, the head looks unusable. The cracks between the prechamber and valve seat, and between the valve seats killed it. When looking for a used head, you need to use caution. Every used head on these engines I've seen tend to have cracks radiating from the prechamber, which is not bad as long as they are not over 1" long or so (I've used heads with those cracks without a problem). But you will need to make sure none reach the valve seats before buying.

To clean the block, you can use a 4-1/2" angle grinder with a fine wire cup brush instead of a grinding disc. Apply light pressure. Won't damage the block and helps speed up the cleaning process.

Brass brushes are a good tool to use. Gets the gunk out and offers almost no ability to damage any motor component.

Request
 

any luck finding a cylinder head?

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I've just started looking for a head for this vehicle. I'm starting on the heckflosse mailing list on yahoo. If you know anyone that has one, I'm very interested. It's a 65 190D W110 OM621.

I can help. PM sent.

Totally striking out on finding a new head for this motor. What other motors will fit in this vehicle? I'm considering a remanufactured motor and possibly doing a bit of body work. Thoughts?

Today I got my head for my '65. It has a motor attached to it, which has a ponton attached to it.

PO says this ran when a tree fell on it so I'm planning on using this 190D as a donor. I will start a new thread with this project as I'm going to need a few tips on what things I should do with the motor out.

I have an I-beam in the garage with a trolley which should help a bit. I think I will keep the original 190D motor with the assumption I'm going to eventually put it back in the Heckflosse when this one quits.

Thoughts and ideas always welcome.

Yes, it was one of the two that I sold yesterday. If I let that engine sit too long it may be less reliable. Ran a year ago, then was parked in a concrete garage. besides, he needed it and I still have several older diesel engines in the inventory

strelnik, we'll put it in this '65 and see what happens! The plan is to get it running before dropping it in, possibly replacing the seals if necessary. Hell, anything I can do that's easier with the motor out, I'd like to do.

This is my first motor swap but I think I can manage it.

I guess you already sold that fintail diesel you got from Lafayette?