NUTS !!! I think I'm 360 degrees off - let me explain...

[jbrianfoto]

Ok - so I finished putting my engine together today (been replacing the #14 head with a #22, om603 engine in my 1987 300TD named Klaus) - finally filled it with radiator fluid and primed the fuel filter.

It cranks and cranks, but will not start.

Things to note - before I replaced the head, it ran perfect, nothing wrong, just had oil in the radiator overflow tank. Turned out to only be a cracked gasket.

During the process I lost all of my timing chain slack, so I had to rotate the engine one full turn to get the slack back, stopping on the 0 degrees mark on the crank. Set my cam back to the cam tower hash mark and reattached the cam sprocket.

Now the engine turns fine, I am not getting fuel out of the first two IP nozzles (removed the IP lines on all 6 and am not seeing fuel on the front two nozzles, the remaining 4 are weeping like I would expect). I am also getting fuel up to the back 4 injector nozzles just fine.

Is it possible that when I rotated the crank one full turn that I put my IP 180 degrees out of phase with the cam and crank? IF so - I am thinking that if I set the cranks back to 0 degrees, remove the cam, rotate the crank one more time, then reset the cam to 0 degrees, I should have the IP back in time with the engine. That still doesn't explain why no fuel on the first two IP pistons.

Sooooo close, something simple is keeping my beloved Klaus from roaring back to life.

Anyone got some thoughts. I am going to read the threads here about checking IP timing, but I am sorta sure (at least 38% sure) - that I have the IP out of phase 180 degrees (or do I have my head up my tail-pipe)?

[barry12345]

Will not work because of valve interference. Pulling the injection pump and rotating until the first cylinders two lobes are upward. Making sure the timing mark on the damper is right then insert the injection pump again with the tang on the pump centered.

First of all put those two front cam lobes upwards and check for the tangs presence in the window. You may just not be starting because of no fuel yet. Not because the pump is out of time.

[jt20]

If you are 100% certain about what you described, then you are correct about the IP timing. -There are 2 full crankshaft revolutions in one camshaft revolution.

Its best not to rotate backwards unless you are very experienced and know all the variables and hazards.

If you are going to do the procedure as you described, remove the cam from the chain and turn the crank clockwise if you are facing it.

Set the crank where it should be when lining up the camshaft marks (I forget) and install the cam sprocket. Make certain that there is no excess chain on the vacuum pump side of the cam sprocket. The vacuum pump forces on the IP timer pull the chain down into that region.

pull up on the chain on the vacuum pump side until you are certain there is no slack (35 pounds -ish) then install the sprocket.

This all assumes that you have not messed with any of the guides or rails around the vacuum pump area in the timing cavity.

As Barry said, its best to re-time the pump after this kind of work.... epsecially if you find that the IP relation is off.

[jt20]

oh... and don't worry about the fuel supply problems just yet... it takes more cranking than anticipated - even if you've done it before.

[sixto]

Originally Posted by jt20

If you are going to do the procedure as you described, remove the cam from the chain and turn the crank clockwise if you are facing it.

To be clear, remove the cam from the head. Don't rotate the crank with the cam pressing on the valves but not timed to the crank!!!

Sixto
87 300D

[jt20]

Originally Posted by sixto

To be clear, remove the cam from the head. Don't rotate the crank with the cam pressing on the valves but not timed to the crank!!!

Yes!!! (DITTO)^6

totally missed that. Very important right there - I thought it was implied.

[97 SL320]

Also, never rotate the engine with the starter when you are working out timing, always turn by hand 2 revs to check clearance. If a valve hits a piston the motor will stop, if you use the starter you can break cam towers.

[Carpenterman]

Might be easier at this point to just remove and re-time the IP. That is actually the only thing that's out-of-time.

[cth350]

like the man said about the cam earlier. The compression stroke is when the front two cam lobes point up. On my first head gasket job, I mounted the washer on the cam with the time mark upside down and didn't notice at first.

-CTH

[jbrianfoto]

Thanks everyone ! All of you validated my original thoughts about what to do. I have always known to not turn an engine with the starter untill I've tested by hand weather or not the cam/crank are in correct phase (backwards or forwards no less).

Sixto - you are right on the money, as always! I've not pulled an IP (yet) - but I am intimate with pulling a cam, so I think that's the way I'm gonna go this time. I'm also going to pull off my new fan to make life easier (with rotating the crank with a 27mm wrench). Since this IP was running like a purring kitten before I yanked the head, and I've been pretty careful to keep everything else in check (besides that errant single rotation of the crank) - I think everything else should line up once I do this last proceedure. The cam is easy to set correctly (since there is a timing mark on the balancer and the cam tower + I can see the front two lobes are pointing the right way) - I should be good.

As for learning how to pull and service an IP, I have Quahogs old 87 300TD that likely needs an IP rebuild, so I'll learn on that one next.

We're leaving tomorrow moring (around 0100) for a 12 drive to Kentucky (to see my daughter and son-in-law), so instead of working on Klaus I had to service our 1-ton Ford diesel. It drinks 15 quarts of Rotilla per oil change !!! Good thing Checker had a $12.99 special today (Fredericksburg, VA located on RT 17, exit 133 off I95).

I will post what happens when I get back at this next weekend (unless it is freezing cold then).

[qwerty]

Originally Posted by jbrianfoto

I am thinking that if I set the cranks back to 0 degrees, remove the cam, rotate the crank one more time, then reset the cam to 0 degrees, I should have the IP back in time with the engine.

It would be much easier to remove and index the IP. An additional advantage is that you could adjust the IP timing at the same time.

[qwerty]

Originally Posted by barry12345

Will not work because of valve interference.

Valve interference with the camshaft removed? You might want to give that concept some additional thought.

[barry12345]

Originally Posted by qwerty

Valve interference with the camshaft removed? You might want to give that concept some additional thought.

Somehow missed remove the cam or it did not register. Reading the post again I do not know how though. Anyways it would be the difficult way to do the job. Never occurred to me that someone would do this in this situation even if I read it was the intent. You are right of course.

[jbrianfoto]

Welllll -

I got it all apart, removed the cam sprocket, loosened the cam totally, rotated the engine another 360 degrees, then put it all back together (being sure the cam marks and the crank marks both were aligned). Took about 90 minutes. After a thorough FOD check, I tried starting it again. Although it still won't catch and run on its own, at least now it is trying to run. Before it wouldn't even make noise like it was trying, so that's an improvement ;-)

Tried off an on all afternoon to get it running. The engine will sputter and try to go, but as soon as I let off the key, it stops. I checked the IP timing with a mirror - the indicator appears at 15 degrees ATDC. Curiously, after hundreds of rotations (by my estimate) - the first two IP lines still are not delivering fuel to the injectors. If I open the lines at the IP, there is some fuel present. I hooked up my air compressor to one end of the line and (after disconnecting the other end) I can blow air thru with no problem. I think there is something wrong with my IP. I really think my problem is here.

The previous owner ran WVO thru this car for years. I wonder if, after sitting for the past 5 months while I replaced the head, the IP has clogged up on old WVO? The engine DID almost start twice this afternoon, ran on its own for about 3 seconds (key off, engine running, rough, but running).

I did remove the ALDA while I had the head off. I did replace the old shutoff valve with a new one (following the procedure I found on this forum) - and plugged the old lines with a golf tee. The EGR valve is intact. It has a brand new vacuum pump too.

Right after I installed the head, I noticed I could barely see the TDC crank indicator (it was completely covered in old grease, oil, road grime and a heavy coat of silicone from the failed viscous fan clutch) - so I, errr, glup, removed the indicator to clean it. To my shock, it is adjustable, So I cleaned it and did my best to put it back in line with the crank TDC marks. This may come back to haunt me. For the purpose of full disclosure I am telling all my friends on PP that I did this.

It is now dark outside and I'm calling it a day.

Oh yeah, BTW - I had my son, Matthew, help me roll the car back off its ramps (thinking the elevated front end was hurting my fuel pressure) - We have a very steep backyard, which is right behind where Klaus had been parked for the past 5 months. So, as you can imagine, we were very careful when we rolled the car back off the ramps. It actually stopped as soon as its front tires touched the flat ground. Then I tried to start the car again, with no luck. But, while we were fiddling with the engine, the darn thing started to roll backwards, quickly! I yelled to my son to get inside and put it back in park - but, thankfully, we had placed two large pieces of firewood in its path before we tried to move the car. Those saved the Klaus from a certain trip down our hill !!!

[sixto]

The 603 can idle on 4 cylinders with functioning ELR. Disconnect the shutoff actuator vacuum line to ensure there isn't a fault in that system.

Sixto
87 300D