Clank Clank when cold....new engine time??
 

Well it appears, that soon I will need an engine replacement but I was curious what others may think? I have been bringing my 78 back from the dead many many times...

So now, I am getting a horrible clank clank from the lower part of the engine, but it is only when the car is cold, once it is warmed up no more clank...

The car is having a horrible rough idle at the moment but I think that is due to me switching over my "rebuilt" monark injectors from my euro...I was told by a mechanic a long time ago that one wasn't firing correctly...but I don't think it would cause a clank lower in the engine..

I did an oil change a few days ago, as I thought it could be due to thick oil(former greasecar)and I cleaned out the tube that runs through the oil filter and replaced the orings..I also took a gal of diesel and poured through the oil filter housing and valve cover..removed a lot of stuff!....clank was still there...

I then checked the valves and adjusted them all including the ones I felt were too lose....clank still there

Ran some sea foam through, still there...

loosened the hard lines while running, effected the idle...and clank still there..

So I have came to the conclusion that I will just need to swap the engine out, though that will be sometime from now as I don't have the funds, tools or space to do it...

I am just going to continue to drive it, as once warmed...it runs perfect and the noise isn't there..

Though I was wondering if anyone here might have had a similar issue, and maybe it was an easy external fix per say....I will try to get a video up..

Have you done a compression check?

Dkr.

The problem is internal. I suspect it is broken ring or rings. I had the same problem on an OM603 engine. It also damaged the cylinder wall when I took it apart.

Nope, I attempted to check the compression awhile ago but the gauge I borrowed had to small of threads...

hmmm I didn't think about a ring, but that would make since with the rough idle, burning oil etc I have been having....when I got the car, the valves were so tight, I couldn't get the thing to start and it took a lot of muscle to break the adjustment nuts lose...

post a video

Check .... or better yet replace.... your ratchet , spring, oil pressure chain tensioner on the passenger side of the block...

I net that is what it is, as I noticed my pressure gauge is idling a bit lower then normal. It sounds as though it is coming from the passenger side. Whats all involved in replacing all this?


Here's a video, I started it about 6/7 hours prior so the sound is not as pronounced, if you listen deep you will hear it.

View My Video

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-9...028_151238.jpg

I would not even go there even if you can get all parts for free. OTOH. it is your car.

True, I am reading about it now....pretty much the pump needs to come off in order to change the tensioner. What I am seeing, is that this is a common wear item....personally I would think that replacing the 4$ tensioner would be easier then the whole engine...

Still I have no idea when I can drop the pan, see whats up and figure out if that is the issue and what is worn out..

This thread is helpful..granted its a turbo..

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/292706-oil-pump-chain-tensioner-replacement-1983-300sd.html

You have a non turbo OM617 don't you?

Oh and consider yourself told off for tipping diesel through your engine.

Sounds like fuel knock to me.

shhhh don't call the engine police :D

I know, but hey its better then filling the engine with diesel and then running it for 5 mins then flushing it :eek:

Yes its a non turbo..

Then the tensioner is slightly different from the turbo spring and ratchet affair. It is "all hydraulic" and needs to be pre-filled with clean engine oil if it gets removed.

Furthermore the oil pump is not driven by a chain. It runs off helical gears that are driven from the intermediate shaft (between timing device and IP). The helical gear drive affair is a "known" weak point for the non turbo OM617 and the OM616 because when the parts wear you can get a shuttling effect within (that I assume makes a light tapping noise).

If you can not see any evidence that the chain tensioner is not doing its job - so take off the valve cover and look(!) + check the feel of the chain and the big chain guide - I'd be pulling off the vacuum pump and checking the intermediate shaft play. Then removing the timing device - then checking the condition of the helical gears that drive the oil pump.

Sorry more detailed instructions for this broad range of advice will be needed - a look at the good book would be a start but I can hold hands if needed!

Stretch....are you sure about the ' all hydraulic ' nature of the non turbo 617....here is a thread about a 616....

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/157139-timing-chain-tensioner.html

I think the pressure switch on the backside of the oil pump needs to be replaced...
there were several different ' settings ' of them... different oil pressures... over the years...
You are taking the pan off anyway... easy to address...

Pan has been dropped...and as stretch said, there is no chain....there goes that thought....stupid fsm gave me the instructions on removing a turbo oil pump....oh well it needed to be done and I have my euro to drive until I figure this out....I just occasionally like driving an auto :(

Ok so oil pan removal time, and time to get greasy!!! So nothing was in the pan, everything physically looks ok buuuttttt

I found a washer in the oil pump screen??? It looks like a wave washer, ones you see used on the valve cover studs...but it is thick...thoughts????

I am going to search to see how one removes the non turbo oil pump...

Oh and maybe stretch is right about that timing device, I had a hard time keeping it running this morning..

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-T...029_150037.jpg

Sounds like fuel knock to me also.

Well going out now to pull the thrust piece and try to yank the oil pump out....I can twist the oil pump but can't get it to come out...

Remind us..... why are you taking off the oil pump ?

Here is why....

So lets start the list of things that need to be replaced...gulppp...

So I noticed my oil pan is marked Febi...i was hmm that is odd, must have been replaced...though maybe a PO hit a curb or something in the past.

So pull the oil pump, what the? is that a crack?

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-n...030_140023.jpg

Yes it is a crack....

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-k...030_140711.jpg

ah not to bad :P

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Z...030_143047.jpg

Now lets pull the thrush bushing...

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-i...030_140133.jpg

Not good...worn down...

Look at the gear, not to bad but some wear.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-m...030_140216.jpg

The oil pump bottom half....wear, not to bad but wear.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-p...030_143449.jpg

The pressure relief valve is missing the o-ring as well as everything above it...where it is I have no idea..

So conclusion, the pump was damaged when the oil pan crunched some time in the past and the shop never replaced the pump. Normal wear to the rest? I am not sure on that.

So I will need a

new thrush bushing...can you believe the price search #1261800044 154$ but they have 3 oem ones on ebay for 35$

New oil pump 419$..

But it looks like, I will either get a used pump or attempt to find all the pieces..

Its time to do more searching and figuring out what I can do. I have to assume that this is what is causing all my issues..

The oil pump is NOT your problem. The crack is on the intake side and the impact is minimal, if at all. Gear pump is of pretty crude design and a little wear and tear not going to affect anything. Good luck.

knock n' roll
 

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/347633-knocking-sound.html

hope its just the injectors.....

There is a fuel knock but there is also something way down deeper. What is happening, is that I have a few other similar issues that are all related.

The oil squirters are not squirting, in fact I even seen air come out of them. My oil pressure has dropped a bar at idle then it normally sits.

The wear in the barring is allowing the gear to slip off of the rod on the oil pump thus oil pressure is dropping and also the tensioner on the chain relays on oil pressure, when the pressure isn't there it is causing slack in the chain...thus the really low down clank I hear.

Here's an older thread from someone who had the same problem. Though he lost his oil pressure completely.

Sudden loss of oil pressure! - Mercedes-Benz Forum

Besides the pickup on the oil pump, the oil pump is fine and with in wear perimeters but the bushing isn't.

Well there is a spring in there too but it does not seem to have the ratchet design that the turbo and later designs on newer Mercedes engines have. There's a whole explanation in the (non turbo section) of the FSM and how you are meant to fill it.

The wear on the end of this bit does not look too good =>

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-i...030_140133.jpg

I've been told that "people" either replace it or smooth off the end of it and then re-tap the little screw hole in the bit that holds it in place (that is above it). I've never done either myself. The wear on the end though causes the parts to rattle about even though oil is being forced by the oil pump up that way...

Please explain what you mean about oil squirters?

Are you saying no oil is coming out of the spray bar over the camshaft? Or do you think your non turbo OM617 has got piston cooling oil squirters like the turbo version? ('Cos it hasn't)

I think this happens / partly happens because of the wear in that bit in the picture above

That is it, the spray bar....my terminology isn't up to par today, been going through so many part lists that I am lost :p

Because of the crack in the pickup, when the oil is in the engine and the pan is a little low....air would get sucked through the crack and make the spray par spray oil out like a squirt bottle...was really odd...the euro just has a constant oil stream..

Yes it isn't good....this is what the bushing is suppose to look like..

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzIwWDcyMA...TJ3pX/$_12.JPG

Looking at that picture it looks like the hole and screw I mentioned previously about fixing is in that bit after all. It has been a long time since I took that bit to pieces - apologies...

...time for a replacement oil pump I think. I might be wrong about this but I get the feeling that the non turbo OM617 pump has a little bit more oompf than the OM616 equivalent. I think I remember something like that - time for a check in the FSM / EPC again...

Oh stretch maybe you can help on this...

On my pressure relief valve, I am missing 38, 32, 35...19 is there and I see no way to open it to revel those parts? I am confused why I would be missing it...

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/atta...d-oil-pump.jpg

On the second picture I am missing number 127 but I can't find the part number...

http://i61.tinypic.com/la0kh.jpg

You are right the 300D NA has larger gears then the 240D....a new 240D pump is 89$...the 300D 600$... :eek:

I am going to post in the classifieds for one, if no luck I will bite the bullet on a used one on ebay...no wayyy I can afford a new one :mad:

I've got to dash off and get the children from school so I haven't got time to answer the first part of your question. I have found the second bit 127 is hidden away in the "engine housing" part of EPC

I can see it is part 149 in the picture shown on the Russian EPC

Êàòàëîã MERCEDES

The Russian EPC doesn't give a part number for it though. With your grown up EPC I bet you could though!

(I'll try and answer your other questions later on today after we've finished making pumpkin lanterns - oh the life of a busy mum!)

AH no wonder I couldn't find it in the epc...checking that out now...

Enjoy all Hallows eve! Tomorrow is the start of the new year! Not many people know that. I will be handing out candy...but our tricker treating starts at 4pm and ends at 7 I believe...so I won't be able to put out the black lights, lord how things have changed..

Plus I am still figuring out where to find the coin for this repair...so we have time :P

Ok well it seems that bushing is in the engine housing, like the epc says. I went out and looked in the hole, after I found a picture of it. I can see it there but it won't come out...so imagine it is pressed in...

So here is a pictorial of the assemble, that is under that cap on any non turbo 300d, 240d, 220d etc..

here is the setup, left to right thrust piece, helical gear, oil pump shaft.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-9...031_134205.jpg

It is suppose to sit this tight in the block, no gaps between the three pieces but this is how mine sat because of the worn thrust piece.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-_...031_134254.jpg

Here you can see how the thrust piece sits on the gear and on the second pic you can see the gap of material missing.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-v...031_134219.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-l...031_134449.jpg

So this is where the metal clank sound was coming from, since the shaft was not tight, a space worn between the gear and the oil pump shaft....this allowed the shaft and gear to clank aka hit each other.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-y...031_134414.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-C...031_134355.jpg

So I really really need a new gear set, oil pump and thrust piece but I have no where near the 1000$ it will cost for new parts. So I am going with a used oil pump, used gear "if" I can find one and a few new seals/gaskets.

Not 'trick or treat' but Pick n' Pull !!

If you can't find anything closer, I'll be scrapping the euro 240this winter...

Sweet, well when you scrap it...you better pm me!! I want or should I say need a big box o parts...including that blower...

I'm thinking pick n pull but we don't have one :( I am going to see what is down in phoenix...that is a long drive and fuel cost but it may be cheaper...

Decided to give candy away tonight, think we gave around 50lbs away...

Can you believe it, there other simi closet 180miles has 2 240's and 3 300's but they are all 82 which are turbo....debating on going there for the gears but still need to find an oil pump.

I have seen the gears for sale but they were Febi (spits as he types)...

Oh and I guess you don't need the other part numbers for the oil pump if you are going for a new one.

(If you have the part number for the bit in the block it would be nice if you are willing to post it up so us poor folks with no grown up EPC know what it is!)

Oh agreed febi doesn't sound great....but the price tag on the gear set is 600.00$ little pricey for febi. There are 2 240d's in a simi close junk yard so I am going to go pull both gear sets, I want a spare.

I found out that there is a snap ring in the oil pressure valve but I can't get it out or should I say no idea how to get it out. So that is where the spring, etc is.

So here are part numbers

gear set 1300500306

bushing in block 6151810026

Thrust piece 6151800144

Thrust piece seal 6219970040

I can't afford a new oil pump so I am looking for a good used one, probably will just replace the one gear shown as I don't want to remove the injection pump, vacuum pump etc to remove that gear set. As well as the thrust piece and seal, I believe this will surface for awhile.

Crap....I screwed up...I got the wrong thrust bushing....I seen 3 part numbers, assumed they had just upgraded the part or what not and changed the number....I see that it goes by engine number....but I don't get what the epc says..

part # 1261800044
Up to engine: 910 12 027647
Up to engine:
912 12 003544 EXCEPT FOR 003437-003450

part # 6151800044
As of engine 910 12 027648
As of engine
912 12 003545 ALSO INSTALLED ON 003437-003450
UP TO ENGINE
912 10/50,20/60 170719
912 12/52,22/62 146804

Part # 6151800144
FROM ENGINE
912 10/50,20/60 170720
912 12/52,22/62 146805

I bought the last one, so any help here??

ok ok I think I get it, they redesigned the gear at some point, looking at this picture of the gear set...you can see the extra spacer...

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzY4WDEwMj...S4WEH/$_57.JPG

here is the new one vers the old one..

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-0...103_133952.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Q...103_134007.jpg

So my theory is that mercedes new about this issue happening and for the later year NA's they redesigned the gears and bushing so there would be less friction and less wear. This would explain why my euro na with the same miles doesn't have this issue....

Heh, so now you REALLY Want my 84 euro 240 oil pump eh? Likely you want the m pump as well?

Nooooo how many times do I have to tell you I want the whole car :D Can you get it in a flat rate box...I'll pay for the large size to make it easier :P

Sadly the 240's have smaller gears inside of the pump, so it wouldn't do the job...though it would fit...the gear and thrust piece will...hints to why I am willing to drive say 400 miles to get to the 240's..

Well you are doing great research on this - as frustrating as it is - keep it up!

I will be! It seems the non turbos get no love around here and no one really has went insane on researching them....till I came on board :D

How did you remove the Thrust Piece (part 124) ??

I tried to yank it out with locking vice grips on Screw Plug (part 122)
It did not budge. Oh, and I did remove Retaining Bolt (part 123)

The Screw Plug was very tough to remove, so I gave it a few whacks with a hammer and socket extension. This possibly pushed the Thrust Piece further in. It sounds quiet now.

Ahh, so you want the 84 300D 4Speed I have then...:D:D euro, of course, also with the m-pump, but oddly, it has the GMR4 compressor... I'll ask about the large shipping flat rate box.

When I removed mine, I didn't remove the allen head screw, I just used my needle nose pliers to pull the gear up. Like you said, you probably wedge it in tight. Only think I can think of is to remove the oil pan, and the pump...then find a thin rod slide up the shaft and tap it out.

Oh you better believe it!!! Once I get my house situation figured out...I am bringing a car carrier up there :D