although I should also say, I am happy to pay a machinist when I can admit a blunder.

I'd likely pull the head if I had 2 messed up plugs. But thats just me, it can work without them.

Winter might be tough on you.

Plugging the entire mess off would probably be the easiest plan.

Removing all of the remnants, and reinstalling a new glow plug would be the best remedy (if it can be done).

Are the threads for the GP still intact? If so, a new glowplug could be coated in release agent, and oushed into the hole with the breached area packed full of JB Weld or equivalent (probably a high end industrial epoxy made by the likes of loctite).

With a little luck, you'd have the same profile as the original hole, with just a small part of the bore being epoxy. You may be able to even have a welder tig that coolant passage closed before this epoxy reconstruction.

Packing with jb weld before plugging has my vote too. It could not hurt, the head is too far gone to be brought back 100 percent.

That's what I'm talkin'' about!

Jim Smith would be proud here!

actually, the 604, and 605 are identical to the 606... in valve and Glow plug layout... just fewer cylinders...

601to 603 use two valves per cylinder, and a short glow plug.

why don't you get a tap for the drilled hole into the water jacket, and just plug THAT?

there is NO WAY the glow plug tip would be safe to hold coolant, or remain where it is under driving forces... carbon WILL leak both, and fail at some point.

if you have a drill bit into the coolant passage, tap that hole, and plug JUST that hole, then, since you already drilled out the GP threads, perhaps you can access the gp with the right size bit, and tap it then slide hammer pull out the tip... and THEN install a plug to seal everything up...

A lot of comments I need to respond to since yesterday. First and foremost funola has been asking me to get some depth measurements and compare that to a GP on the bench. Here's what I came up with:

From the face of the head, I drilled 2" deep with up to a 1/2" drill bit (all Threads are gone at this point). Beyond that I drilled another 7/8" deep beyond that with a 13/64" bit (this was when I thought I was drilling into the center of GP in order to begin the extraction method). But I never hit the center of GP.

So I took a pic of a GP to show you the depth comparison:

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z...371A35F572.jpg

And this second picture I angled the Glow Plug over my diagram to simulate how I THINK I am off on my angle:

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z...9D649261AF.jpg

Now moving on to vstech's most recent comment.. (By the way, Thank you very much for getting involved in discussion and sharing your vast knowledge. I know most of you must be disgusted with my stupidity here.)

My comments in italics:

You will see in this next picture that there is 2 breaches of the coolant passage. I can plug the tiny one (red arrow). But the gaping hole on the right (Green Arrow) is unplugable with a tap. It seems JB weld or a tig Weld would be the only way to close that? Also note I believe that both the red arrow and the green arrow is indeed the same coolant cavity. At some point I will confirm this by poking a wire into the red and see if I can snake it out the green side. I will also go further and remove broken Heat Exchanger and snake a wire in there to see it that is also the same passage.

Labels:
Blue Arrow - What I believe to be the dead center of remainder of GP
Red Arrow - Coolant breach right at the the bottom of the 13/64" hole, which recall is 2-7/8" deep from the face of head.
Green Arrow - Gaping breach of coolant passage.

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z...%20plug/GP.jpg

Maybe this will help too. I think the pics I have provided show more detail. But here it is in video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVKIUW_PCeE

I wanted to follow up and let you know I haven't forgotten this request. I will get to it this weekend and report back. Maybe tonight if I have time. I've been reading through some threads on removing these injectors. I know there's a special socket. But it appears most guys have agreed that a thin wall deep socket 22mm will do the job just fine. I also understand the area around the injector should be "surgically" clean?

Those who would look down on you are forgetting their past. We've all had those 'what the heck have I done,' moments. That's the only way to learn that OCD is your friend.

It gets easier with age.

Holyguacamole! I didn't notice that gaping hole to the right until you pointed it out. I thought it was a shadow before. If using jbweld, you might need to wad some fiberglass cloth to keep the jbweld from running in to the water passages.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk

Mike,

Congratulations for hangin in there and being determined; you almost gave up.

There's a lot of ideas and info being thrown around here, try to focus and take your time. Wait for a good solution that feels right for you. Remember you are the only one who is there.

Yes, these are GREAT ideas. Non of which I would have thought of. I just don't want you guys to get bored with me. 8 page thread in 3 1/2 days!

Some of you may be saying: "WTF are you waiting for? You have a ton of ideas. Implement one of them already"

I wish I can chat here, get a request from you guys, run out to the car and answer request. But please understand. I chat on the forum while at work. Home is an hour and 30 mins away. So that is why the questions you guys ask me get answered the next day.

Mike, great job with the photos and the drawings. Now that we have more concrete data of where the breaches are, instead of guessing.

If your assessment of the photo with the 3 color arrows are correct, it looks like you have also drilled through part of the glow plug taper sealing surface of the head as well as into the coolant passage near it, so you are dealing with coolant breach as well as combustion gas breach, which makes it much more challenging to "plug" up.

Is the coolant expansion tank empty? How fast was the coolant coming out? I'd suggest this test: Before pulling the injector, assuming the head is fully drained of coolant, mix up some color dyed water - food dye red would be good for contrast. Set up your camera focused well into the hole and make a video as you pour the dyed water into the expansion tank. It will capture if the coolant is coming out of one or two breach(es).

Where do you want to go with this? Do you want to try to keep the car on the road w/o pulling the head? It will be fun to try. If so, I would not try to extract the remnants of the glow plug. It is needed for combustion gas seal. I don't think set screws and epoxy will hold up to combustion gas.

I am thinking something like this:

Tap the 1/2" hole for a hex bolt (where the glow plug thread was, do not use pipe thread!) Make a plug out of lead with a pointy end matching the 1/2 drill point of the existing hole and long enough to cover the big breach area (melt some fishing lures and make a mold). Hammer the lead plug into the hole with a punch and hammer to expand it so it fills any space between the lead plug and the hole, then tighten the bolt and force the lead plug further in. I think lead melts at around 600F and it may work. You can always tighten it more to exert more pressure.

Yes, clean and dry so debris and liquid does not fall into the pre chamber. I'd recommend lot's of compressed air and brake clean till it is absolutely dry before removal. The purpose of this exercise is to look for signs of coolant in the pre chamber, you don't want any liquid contamination to "cloud" the results. Let's hope it is dry in there.

Don't know, didn't think to look. I doubt it because it's not like cupfuls came pouring out.

Not fast at all. As a matter of fact all it did was seep back into the hole I was making. (Remember my initial assessment I thought it was fuel? This is why). Car was on complete level ground at the time. I can't picture right now if expansion tank is higher than GP ports. But also note this. While I was doing the doomed drilling, I had already broken off the heat exchanger. I had that removed along with the hose to the HE disconnected to give myself more room to get in there with drill. So any spillage had occurred from that level already.

I'm doubt it is. All in all I lost about a coffee cup of fluid. (16 ozs tops?)

Sounds like a fun plan. Wouldn't my snaking around a wire back there tell be the same thing?

As far as you wise gentlemen will take me. I am intrigued to try this now!

Yes. Ideally I would like to try a quick fix like we are discussing here, with the option of pulling the head down the road when I am willing to spend the money. My concern is: If this doesn't work and I cause catastrophic failure... i.e. hydro lock, bent rod, blown piston (By the way, I have no idea what I just said there, just throwing out some fancy terms I've seen you guys use. LOL). It's a risk I am willing to take. Not like the car is worth much now.

I agree with this. At least something appears nice and sealed. I don't think I should "open up" anything further for now. Sorry to those who are saying to pull the remnants out. I am open to hear the arguments for and against it. But logic is telling me to keep that vital area closed :confused:

I agree with you on this. Good thinking.

No offense, but considering how this has gone, I am assuming you don't have the skills and the tools to properly align a tap so that you get a good seal at the GP / head surface.


tapping the head material where the GP threads were originally seems the most solid.

Then the "bolt" that you send in there should make contact to the back of the existing GP. You can shape the end of that "bolt" to make contact in a way that improves contact with the GP (when the time comes).

Alignment of the tap is going to be critical.

You wont really need to seal anything as long as that "bolt" firmly pushes on the back of the GP as you thread it in.

Good assumption. Tools yes. Skills, no.

I am going to need help when That time comes. For now I will do the probing around/red dye test. Pull injector if you all still feel that is necessary. And then go from there.

Not really, since you cannot see what's behind the snaked wire.

You say only a coffee cup of coolant came out. If so, your expansion tank (which is always higher than the head) should not be empty, and coolant should still be seeping out the hole slowly. Open the expansion cap to allow air in, coolant should be pouring out and the expansion tank will empty in due time.

I am going to draw you a "bolt" in CAD then post it.

I won't have exact dims, its just a reference for thought.

pulling the injector may not be necessary now.

But funola is right. You need to be very certain about the dimensions here before you do anything.

If you only have a thin piece of metal remaining from the GP outer casing (the shiny body part) still in the head, this "bolt" may not be a good solution.

JT20 - Thanks in advance for the drawing in "CAD" you will provide. Although I have to ask. What is CAD?

We'll revisit the dimensions of the hole when the time comes. For now my check list is:

1. Open Expansion tank and let that level get way down. (tonight that is doable).
2. Red Dye test. I will get it good and bloody and post on my youtube channel. The idea is as I fill up the expansion tank to see where I see the red fluid first. Tiny hole or gaping hole. Right? Either way, it will be on video for you guys to analyze. Probably this weekend.
3. Clean injector seat, remover injector, look for coolant (which will now be blood red)... No coolant = Good thing?

Anything else for the near future?

:2thumbsup

Computer Aid Design. ( CAD ). I would recommend you to leave it to the professionals or just dump the car. Sorry to be so frank.

Ok... better info, new plan...

Soak the gp remnants in pm blaster overnight...

Soak again... then...

Start the car... have a towel wadded up over the glow hole...

The plug will blast itself out.

Then, thread the gp opening with a set screw using RED loctite and then you can get a large set screw to seal the coolant and realize you will NEVER put another glow plug in that cylinder.

Vstech is right.

The tip needs to go. It might last for a while, but it will be big trouble when if and when it rattles loose from cycling. it will then get sucked into the chamber and you'll have a bunch of coolant in the cylinder during operation.

The coolant will hydrolock the engine. End of piston/engine. Unless it is plugged and done right the engine is on borrow time. The plug will unstuck when you are hundreds of miles from home.

You guys are all the experts of course, but isn't it time to bite the bullet and pull the head? Or am I missing something.

My nerves wouldn't allow me to drive it without replacing the head. That's balzy, imo. A valve job is good for any automobile with a bunch of mile. Another head, parts, gaskets and the work involved seems like it would be a lot cheaper than buying another car.

vstech beat me to the punch on removing the remnants -- but here's my breif argument for removing the remnants and a slightly different plug.

Eventually that tip will break loose, carbon is not a good glue, especially when subject to very high pressures and temps. It will cause issues given enough time. Without the seat and taper, it could fall into the engine Bad news.

What you need to do is remove it -- but be EXTREMELY CAUTIOUS with running the engine, however briefly, unless the coolant is drained. It if pops loose and you don't realize it, the cylinder intake stroke will draw whatever coolant that is in the hole down into the engine through the prechamber.

If a breif run of the engine and a short full throttle rev does not knock it loose (if it does, think of it as a bullet and have lots of backdrop behind it), I'd drill the center, tap it and either slide hammer or use a threaded rod and a nut to slowly pull it out.

then you should have a machinist make a plug that mimics the GP tip so the compression and flow charactaristics in the prechamber are not changed (you would slightly lower the overall compression of that cylinder with the increased volume. Depending on how much "meat" is left between the drilled area and the prechamber will determine how we reconstruct a seat for the plug. Given dimensions, I can draw you a model to have made at a shop with threads and a seat for a seal.

I'm taking my Professional Engineering licencure exam tomorrow, so I may be silent for several days, but should be back sometime over the weekend to look over the thread again. with the two breaches, putting a functional GP in there may be impossible witout some delicate drilling and reconstruction ops.

funola - I opened the cap on the expansion tank. Nothing came out of the GP hole. Nor was there any visible coolant in the exp tank. I swear I didn't lose much when doing the job. I was in my garage with a piece of cardboard under the car. Some spilled down, but it's not like I had to mop up afterwards.

I also pulled the oil dipstick to see if there was any milky white on there like when there's coolant in the oil. There wasn't. The level was a little high. But not absurd. Based on everything described thus far is there anyway coolant could have made it to the crankcase? Any where else it could have gone based on the holes I drilled? I dunno maybe the level is just below the hole right now. We'll know more when I do the red Dye test.

When and if this hole ever gets plugged up properly, both the coolant and the OIL will be changed before I ever dare turn that key.

Yes, one of those breaches could easily be into an oil gallery...

I am thinking opposite on removing the remains of the glow plug tip. Keep in mind that cylinder pressure will want to force the remaining GP tip AWAY from the prechamber, not into it. Having the back of it slathered with jb weld and maybe some kind of metal taking up the space between the jb weld and the plug, should keep the tip from moving. No matter how much heat or pressure it sees, it can't go anywhere. I think that any more effort to remove the remaining GP tip will result in the head NOT being able to be patched, and the car not drivable. Even if the tip were to somehow get into the prechamber, it will not go any further. It can't get into the combustion chamber (too big).

[QUOTE=mikemass1221;3589799]Maybe this will help too. I think the pics I have provided show more detail. But here it is in video:

After watching your video this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORG-15RfViY#t=28.100389 came up which is a universal broken glow plug removal kit. It shows some of the techniques and tools used to remove broken glow plugs. Removing the center electrode first is absolutely needed since it allows subsequent drilling to be self centering.

An easy test would be to unscrew the oil drain plug, and let a little out. If any water (coolant) is in the pan, it will come out first.

Milky white oil won't show up till engine is run (DON"T RUN IT!) to churn coolant and oil into suspension. If coolant leaked into the crankcase, it is sitting at the bottom of the sump. Drain the oil and see what comes out.

Awesome video funola. Unfortunately for me, a little late.

ROLLGUY - I was was planning on pulling oil plug this weekend to check for coolant.

I think there are good arguments on both sides for leaving GP and removing remainder. Bottom line if the one I choose doesn't work and coolant gets into the cylinder and I hydrolock this thing, the car goes to the junk yard.

Said another way. Trying this experiment either works or the car is 100% FUBAR. No in between. There is no going back to just "replacing the head" if it doesn't work.

So for argument sake, where would one find a refurbished 606 cylinder head? I have dealt with Potomac German Auto in the past. That would be my first thought. Any others?

If the piston was at bottom dead center, it may still have a lot of coolant in it. Stuff the hole with a rag and place a bucket under the engine, turn the crankshaft by hand and see how much coolant comes out.

Is this drawing a 4 valves per cyl 606 head? I thought the injector should be pointed straight down in respect to the piston?

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z...AE850.png.jpeg

Going by the text at the bottom of the page (Model Year 1995 USA Model 124.131), it would have to be.

So this from jay bob from post #48 is not true?

"On the 606 the dual overhead cams and 4 valves per cylinder make the top of the combustion chamber symmetrical. The pre chamber is dead center and the injectors point straight down with respect to the centerline of the piston."

The drawing clearly shows the injector is angled.

jay bob also said in the same post

"The OM642 is worse - the GPs on that engine are nearly a foot long...same reason. No pre chamber on a CDI but it still has to get the business end where the action is."

Really? glow plug a foot long or is he exaggerating?

Edit: It's less than 6" long. He's exaggerating.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Genuine-TRIDON-Glow-Plug-TGP-For-Chrysler-300C-LE-MY06-3-0L-OM642-/151121276689?hash=item232f87af11:g:WhkAAOxy4XNSMrWr&vxp=mtr

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/WhkAAO...Wr/s-l1600.jpg

Nah, not necessarily. if the repair is done carefully you should not hydrolock the engine. If the remains of the plug is removed, I don't see why you couldn't install a custom made plug (and/or just a set screw and not worry about the compression change) in two places and seal the coolant in. if you were really worried about it, or if there is a breach in both the oil gallery and the coolant gallery, then just have someone weld it closed?

You'd have to have a lot of coolant dripping past the treads to hydrolock it...

You may consider asking this same question with some background on what we all have suggested at the practicalmachinist.com forums and/or some welding forums. Get the opinion of guys that see FUBAR parts all day and make them un-FUBAR for high $$. then post the link for us all to lurk and watch :D

I now remember reading a white paper on this engine. I think it said the injector is centered but slightly inclined to enhance the swirl in the combustion process.

The point I was trying to make is that the injector is dead centered over the top as opposed to being off to the side in the SOHC engines.

Tough crowd!

Those plugs sure looked huge when I got the dead ones back from the dealer ...much larger than the 61x/603/602 plugs!

I'm not worried about the tip going into the cylinder... I'm worried about COOLANT going into the cylinder. Those breeches are large, and nigh impossible to seal... Best NOT to chance any coolant getting into the cylinder. Removing the tip, and sealing it is the only way I would ever recommend driving that car ever again!

Side note... JBweld is useless for keeping the tip in place... No way it could... Also, if the tip ever went INTO the combustion chamber, while it couldn't fall into the piston, it could CERTAINLY bounce around and seriously destroy the PC ball... And the PC, and the head...

Not really. Just want accurate information and not another myth started that CDI injectors are nearly a foot long.

Edit: You got the old injectors back from the dealer. Did you measure them with a ruler? How did 6" become "nearly a foot long"?

Speaking of CDI glow plugs, which are longer and smaller in diameter (148.5 mm, 5.8" long M8 x 1 threads) vs 606 injectors (116 mm, 4.6" long M12 x 1.25 threads), I'd imagine carbon packing would make the CDI glow plugs much more prone to breakage and much more difficult to extract a broken one. Is that true in real life?

Car-Part.com--Used Auto Parts Market

Only two show up, both in New Jersey at the same place: International Used Auto Parts, call them to get the price for stock # AA0058: 973-344-8929

There was a car like yours at our local LKQ a few weeks ago, they only charge like $100 for a head, but it's a full day of labor for me to get that sucker off. I'll check to see if they still have it.

Web inventory says it's still there. Price list says $76.

Refurbished head? I'd say get a used head and then have a competent machine shop evaluate and give you a quote for a valve job.

Plug the hole: I love the idea of the lead plug, and I would probably leave the remains of the glow plug exactly where they are.

Thanks for liking my idea!:D

Copied here from post #114

"I am thinking something like this:

Tap the 1/2" hole for a hex bolt (where the glow plug thread was, do not use pipe thread!) Make a plug out of lead with a pointy end matching the 1/2 drill point of the existing hole and long enough to cover the big breach area (melt some fishing lures and make a mold). Hammer the lead plug into the hole with a punch and hammer to expand it so it fills any space between the lead plug and the hole, then tighten the bolt and force the lead plug further in. I think lead melts at around 600F and it may work. You can always tighten it more to exert more pressure."

I would add here before putting the lead plug in, use a self tapping screw sized to fit the 13/64 hole and drive in in then grind the head off with a Dremel. This adds another layer of protection to keep coolant out of the pre chamber. Then put the lead plug in, hammer it to expand and fill the nooks and cranny then put the bolt in to press it in further to keep it in place. The lead plug seals the big gaping hole as well as provide a force on the remnant of the glow plug making the taper seal do its job.