I agree about the small town attitude. The shop I went to, when I needed stuff done that I didn't want to do myself, would let me help when work was being done on my car. I helped a mechanic change out the lower ball joints in a W201. He had never worked on a MB. I showed him how to do the job with the lower control arm on the car, not off. We did both sides in less then the book time for one side. I paid them the book time for one side.
The mechanic thought the locking nut design for the hub bearings was so cool.
Many shops will not even let you watch because they want to maintain a shroud of mystery over the alchemy of car repair.

And, btw, they did install a new ring gear on a flywheel for me once....

Guys, please don't hear me saying that anything I presented is how it SHOULD be! Not at all. It's just the way it pretty much IS these days. I, too, grew up in a small town and yes, you could get stuff done there. We actually have a few pretty decent shops here in Wilmington but it took a number of years to ferret them out. I now have a "go-to" list for a number of repairs that I don't do myself - transmissions, starter/alternators, steering racks & boxes, and if I have a general repair that I can't do myself (I have some health issues that get in the way) I take it to my buddy's shop. But it took a lot of patience and considerable fishing to find these places.

Squiggle - I can't begin to answer your question. Maybe the point is that THEY saw these situations as different and it might just be that they've done a ton of presswork on wheel bearings but haven't done a flywheel. Who knows where they're coming from on this.

Dan

Some points.

Why do so many people consider mechanics to be stupid but expect them to know everything? This is especially puzzling when a person making these statements is the one seeking the assistance of a mechanic.

As for flipping the ring gear, not many cars have a manual trans these days so not everyone knows how to do the job. Would you rather they take on a job they haven't done before and cause damage?

You do realize that some ring gears have a taper cut into one side of the teeth to promote starter gear engagement? When you flip the RG this taper isn't on the back ( now front ) and might result in gear clash.

On the flushing a torque converter subject. Flushing converters started to go away when Chrysler introduced lock up converters in the late 70's and by the mid 80's no one kept a converter flushing machine around. This is because flushing a TC was marginal on non lockups and not effective on lockups due to the clutch system. Seems you are far behind the automotive technology curve.

Fewer and fewer shops rebuild a trans piece by piece. The complexity, subtle differences of the same type trans and possible failure points are just too great.

Factory rebuilders build hundreds of the same trans and get a sense of typical failure points. They also run the trans on a dyno to test it rather than a piece rebuilder installing it in a car, having a problem and having to remove it.

These days a trans doesn't just wear out and needs friction materials replaced to make it go. Modern transmissions have some other failure ( like valve body wear or poor computer programming ) that causes the trans to fail. Just changing the friction material makes it go again but it will fail not so far down the road.

If all of this isn't enough, the customer wants their car _NOW !!!!_ , taking a trans out is a major ordeal these days, not to mention that taking it apart, ordering parts and rebuilding it takes time. A factory rebuild is on the shelf and turns into a remove and replace operation. What would you rather have?

There is a vast difference between doing something at home and doing it for a living. I challenge those that think it is so easy to open up their own shop. Those that have owned their own shop / worked in the business already know what it is like so don't expect much support from them.

In my case I removed the cylinder heads, removed all accessory parts (valves included) and handed the shop the heads - The shop owner asked for business type - I said im the owner of the car and DIYing it, didnt make 2 cents of difference to him - his reciept had a "TOS" area on the back of it speaking of this same liability being discussed.

My reason to bare the head of all parts was also liability, I dont want them to lose, break or damage something either.

You can also forget the DEALER on these older diesels. I took my diesel by the dealer to see what they would charge for a new battery. $200 for the battery $70 labor to install. The service rep came back out after the tech saw the window washer reservoir and said they would need 2 hrs labor to install. It's clear the tech had never worked on a 1990 Benz. I got a Gr 49 battery at Advance
for $120 after online discount and installed it myself in 20 minutes. And I had never done it before. The only reliable Indy in my area currently is by appointment only, currently 1 month wait. You're pretty much on your own with an older Mercedes diesel

Some points.

Why do so many people consider mechanics to be stupid but expect them to know everything? This is especially puzzling when a person making these statements is the one seeking the assistance of a mechanic.

Because they often don't know basic things and act like they know everything and yet a do-it-myselfer can see through them. The only reason I request the assistance of a mechanic is because they have more tools than I do and are supposed to have more knowledge. But I often find that they lack the knowledge and willingness to help so I regret asking.

As for flipping the ring gear, not many cars have a manual trans these days so not everyone knows how to do the job. Would you rather they take on a job they haven't done before and cause damage?

This car has an automatic transmission. It's technically a flexplate, but it's very heavy and built identical to a flywheel. In fact, it almost looks like you could put a pressure plate and clutch in it. I would expect that they would know how to do it.

You do realize that some ring gears have a taper cut into one side of the teeth to promote starter gear engagement? When you flip the RG this taper isn't on the back ( now front ) and might result in gear clash.

But this one does not. It is straight cut and intended to be flipped around when one side wears.

On the flushing a torque converter subject. Flushing converters started to go away when Chrysler introduced lock up converters in the late 70's and by the mid 80's no one kept a converter flushing machine around. This is because flushing a TC was marginal on non lockups and not effective on lockups due to the clutch system. Seems you are far behind the automotive technology curve.

The transmission manual provided by Mercedes-Benz says to flush the torque converter whenever it is out of the vehicle as preventative maintenance to remove any particles that may be inside. It shows a tool being fit over the center of it to pressurize it. I think you mean that Mercedes-Benz was far behind the technology curve when they designed the W126--archaic-looking machines even when they were new. :rolleyes:

Fewer and fewer shops rebuild a trans piece by piece. The complexity, subtle differences of the same type trans and possible failure points are just too great.

Factory rebuilders build hundreds of the same trans and get a sense of typical failure points. They also run the trans on a dyno to test it rather than a piece rebuilder installing it in a car, having a problem and having to remove it.

These days a trans doesn't just wear out and needs friction materials replaced to make it go. Modern transmissions have some other failure ( like valve body wear or poor computer programming ) that causes the trans to fail. Just changing the friction material makes it go again but it will fail not so far down the road.

If all of this isn't enough, the customer wants their car _NOW !!!!_ , taking a trans out is a major ordeal these days, not to mention that taking it apart, ordering parts and rebuilding it takes time. A factory rebuild is on the shelf and turns into a remove and replace operation. What would you rather have?

Well, I am glad that I am rebuilding the transmission myself, piece by piece, replacing every rubber seal and making sure that every part is within spec.

There is a vast difference between doing something at home and doing it for a living. I challenge those that think it is so easy to open up their own shop. Those that have owned their own shop / worked in the business already know what it is like so don't expect much support from them.

It used to work back in the day. It's not my fault if everyone wants to drive complicated, disposable appliance cars and have poor customer service. The more I deal with professional mechanics, the less I want to rely on them and just do it all myself.

What is different is they needed to keep the Ring Gear in good enough condition that the position could be changes and the Ring Gear reused. Note the method in the attached thumbnail of removing an old Ring Gear. Past pics I have seen show a Chisel being used.

Apparently common practice is to break the Ring Gear off of the Flywheel which is quick to do and install a new Ring Gear.
So when a Customer comes in an ask for something else it is going to be an experiment if they do the job.

Breaking off the ring gear rather than hammering it off is done so the flywheel ring gear ares does not experience wear. It is possible for the flywheel OD to receive damage and not properly hold the ring gear.

Hmmm... I heated the ring gear and it fell right off with the tap of a punch. No damage to the flywheel. It seems that stuff like this is a lost art.

Of course it is a lost art. Most flex plates for rear wheel drive cars of that era are in the $15-$25 range. Of course, MB is most likely more (a lot more). Labor rates now are at or approaching $100/hour. The '85 import labor guide calls for 0.5 hours to R&R the ring gear (assuming it's off the car) on a 80-85 w123/w126 chassis. That's typical for most cars of that era. The 'useless' mechanic/shop owner looks at this transaction very simply: he can do an unfamiliar job from a walk in that may not come out to the customers satisfaction, sell him a new part, or take a a pass on the job. Add to this that the mechanic figures that this DYI'er will most likely not be a regular customer, & will complain about the labor cost, and the decision is clear. Most mechanics and shop owners I know are thoughtful humans, they take the path of least hassles. It's just not worth it. On the other hand, a restoration shop may be glad to see you with your small jobs that need a higher level of skill than the average DYI'er has. But be ready to pay. I do jobs like this during the slow season, or if I have time that day, or the customer is nice about the request. Other times of the year, I have to turn away the small odd jobs - no time. But I guarantee you that if a customer is a PITA that's the last time we will talk. I live & work in a small town. Word gets around about bad work as well as bad customers. It works both ways. Be nice, most folks are just trying to do a job. A job that they are familiar with. Not everyone is an expert in all areas, especially when it comes to old Benzes. BTW if the person does take on your odd job, thank them with money ($5-10 TIP WORKS WONDERS). They will welcome you the next time.

The device you describe is a fluid extractor that might also be used for checking the converter for leaks. This isn't a flushing machine.

A flushing machine is a motorized device that spins the turbine while solvent is pumped into and out of the converter.

How about calling MB dealers and asking if they have / use the device you speak of?



Until you have a problem that a paper / rubber kit and some frictions won't solve. Taking an auto trans apart and putting it back together isn't terrible difficult. Finding the source of the failure ( valve body issues ) rather than the symptom ( burned clutches ) it more difficult.

You make it sound like a factory rebuild from a reputable source is haphazard.


I'd venture to guess that you don't have a "home" repair garage and wander from place to place. This increases the odds of running across less than better shops and those that won't take on odd jobs.

Ring Gear Replacement. Not "entirely" a lost art it seems...
 

Now I want me a Ford 8N...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzmZqq5DfgI

- Peter.

I see your issue with shops in a slightly different way, possibly because here in the rust belt of Canada, the decline of the auto trade has moved faster than in the warmer, drier areas of the continent where more old cars survive and by extension, so do the trades that service them.

For example, in my area (more than a million overall population), there is not:

- a single machine shop that receives a more than tepid recommendation from any mechanic I have asked (more than 10 oldtimers asked);
- a single radiator rebuilder;
- one competent diesel injection shop;
- even one wheel repairer;
- a dedicated auto upholsterer; or
- shop willing to work on older Bosch FI systems (say, pre-K-Jet).

There is one alternator and starter rebuilder (who takes walk-in business... there are one or two who service shops trade only). He is in the middle of nowhere and works 9-5, M-F. There is one shop that will rebuild calipers, same deal more or less and the reports back are iffy enough I haven't bothered.

Often the specialized skills stop being offered abruptly, when a business passes from father to son or daughter... even when the same old techs still work there. I have seen this multiple times (for example, the radiator shop across from my office).

So I actually applaud your desire be an advanced Mennonite when it comes to cars. Everyone here with a car in the w123-116-126 orbit shares that, to some extent or other. (Advanced Mennonites accept and use farm machinery from the 1960s to 1980s as well as some other basic forms of technology.)

Where I disagree is your attitude when shops don't want to play by your rules. If you want to be a Mennonite and build a log cabin, great, but then don't go to a suburban tract builder and expect them to help out when you don't have a particular tool.

Mechanics, in my experience, at best cast a wary eye on enthusiastic DIYers. I don't blame them too much, given what some of us dump at their doorstep (I have a friend who owns as shop... I think he and 97 SL320 were separated at birth, when I read what SL says I see Norm's lips moving in my head). At worst, they think we are one step from the asylum.

You apparently yearn for a time when the trades had some basis in basic theory and problem solving. That may still exist Stateside, but hang on to it for dear life as they are rapidly being gutted here in eastern Canada. When the tide turns, what you are *****ing over today will seem like the warm and fuzzy old days.

Just my $0.02.

Interested to read your post. Presumably your are talking about Ottawa/Gatineau area?

Here in Kingston area, there are a couple of shops that work on old Benzes. I have used one of them, but try to stay away ;) For jobs I don't want to do myself, I get a local garage to do them. They don't know much about our old Benzes, but they will use parts that I provide. They did sub-frame and motor mounts on my SL as well as new water pump. They put in a new starter and a muffler for me on my 300D. But for major work (engine rebuild on 300D; Replace manifolds on SL) I took cars to a more specialized MB shop in the Toronto area. There, there are several shops that are good at old MB work.

In our smallish town, we do have auto-electric rebuilders, Rad rebuilder, diesel injection shop. Not sure about wheel, but I know local dealer gets alloys refinished back to like-new, so there must be one. I think there are a couple of upholstery shops. But I could not find one that could do a convertible top for my SL, so it became a DIY job. I would like to have a shop check out suspension on the 300D (it feels a bit loose), but don't know who I would trust to know what they are looking at.

Our area wasn't a Benz area - more like American. No problem getting work done on those old cars.

The cars are getting old, so this is what we should expecy

+1 for the small town repair shops of rural America. Our twin towns of Sublimity & Stayton(separated by the freeway) have a total population around 10,000 but there are multiple auto parts stores and we still have upholstery or machine shops, plus several car repair options that do good work for a fair price on both foreign and domestic despite their mainstay is selling tires or repairing agricultural equipment. Seldom do I have to go into the "big" city of Salem. Don