Sneaky RIV port check to hmmmm? IP timing Plus another ?

[coachgeo]

just want to clarify......

?? To get a baseline start point of IP. If one peers into the RIV port with a borescope... and turns the engine till the Bumper appears (that is what triggered the RIV light) you want that spot to match what on the Harmonic Balancer marks of BTDC (Before Top Dead Center) or ATDC???
(0, 14 or 15, 19, 24)????

?? If cant get timing mark suggested above and RIV bump to match does that means Rebuilder got off a tooth somewhere on their IP install..... or worse on Timing Chain..? (or I FUBARD badly by starting if first time with non diluted Start fluid ..... which was very VIOLENT imho and that caused something to jump chain or IP )

Happy 4th folk

[coachgeo]

19.5 ATDC??

https://youtu.be/WpAxhJDrYC4?si=yi_FXA1IiClprWNx&t=42

[Diesel911]

Originally Posted by coachgeo

19.5 ATDC??

https://youtu.be/WpAxhJDrYC4?si=yi_FXA1IiClprWNx&t=42

I could not figure it out at first. What he is speaking of is the degree distance from say 24 degrees before top dead center to 15 degrees after top dead center.

[vox_incognita]

Methinks Deselmeken had found (in literature or during his extensive trade experience) that the actual feed begin of this particular IP was @ 19.5 degrees(IP shaft rotation) before the "RIV light"/locking tool engaged (what he means by "offset") .

Due to the fact that the IP rotates 2 times slower than the engine Crankshaft, this would give us 39 degrees BTDC ,as counted on the harmonic ballancer. For whatever reasons Bosch had decided to have the RIV notch (and the respective engine mounting/shop equipment "testing" position) @ 15 degrees ATDC, power stroke(counted on the engine CS) ,so we must subtract this value to obtain the "actual FeedBegin" degrees as counted on the engine Crankshaft .
19.5x2(BTDC) - 15(ATDC) =24BTDC "actual" Feed Begin(as measured on the Crankshaft ballancer,compr.stroke).

Wonder why Bosch chose this "15 degree ATDC" thingie. In fact, they could have chosen ... any .Never found any info on that,still curious.

https://www.tonk.ca/models/w123/w123CD2/Program/Engine/617/07_1-200.pdf

N.B. Here, on page 6 there is a note about wrong IP end cap(the mark,rather) ex-factory :

https://www.tonk.ca/models/w123/w123CD2/Program/Engine/617/07_1-200.pdf

[coachgeo]

Originally Posted by vox_incognita

Methinks Deselmeken had found (in literature or during his extensive trade experience) that the actual feed begin of this particular IP was @ 19.5 degrees(IP shaft rotation) before the "RIV light"/locking tool engaged (what he means by "offset") .

Due to the fact that the IP rotates 2 times slower than the engine Crankshaft, this would give us 39 degrees BTDC ,as counted on the harmonic ballancer. For whatever reasons Bosch had decided to have the RIV notch (and the respective engine mounting/shop equipment "testing" position) @ 15 degrees ATDC, power stroke(counted on the engine CS) ,so we must subtract this value to obtain the "actual FeedBegin" degrees as counted on the engine Crankshaft .
19.5x2(BTDC) - 15(ATDC) =24BTDC "actual" Feed Begin(as measured on the Crankshaft balancer,compr.stroke).

Wonder why Bosch chose this "15 degree ATDC" thingie. In fact, they could have chosen ... any .Never found any info on that,still curious.

https://www.tonk.ca/models/w123/w123CD2/Program/Engine/617/07_1-200.pdf

N.B. Here, on page 6 there is a note about wrong IP end cap(the mark,rather) ex-factory :

https://www.tonk.ca/models/w123/w123CD2/Program/Engine/617/07_1-200.pdf

do NOT have a A/B box. Only going by feel of what "activates" the A/B... which I assume is the same thing the locking pin clips on. Some sort of blade. Like tip of a Flat Head Screwdriver.

Can't see anything due to glare of oils in the IP's RIV port, reflecting the light on the Borescope on either engine... as described earlier... Same with my phone.

Am assuming I found the blade by way it pinched the probe I stuck in there (a bolt). BOTH the clapped out 617 and my brand new (to me. supposedly rebuilt) engine behave exact same way with the probe. The Probe ends up up getting pinched by the blade at exact same spot when rotate engine clockwise with Socket Wrench... Doubt they are both Broken engines. but knowing my luck. maybee.

PS. IP Newer Engine is on vehicle. The Crapper is on the ground next to it.
PStwo-- ordered a locking pin. Peach Parts messaged this AM and said everything on the order is OUT OF STOCK. Does that acctually mean. . they saw everyone else is much higher in price so now they will raise their price then tell me its all the sudden now in stock but owe them more mulla to meet a new price.

[coachgeo]

@Funola ?

What does the wanted to see RIV thangy spot one looks for..... look like, when peering in the RIV port? Using a Borescope have come to a spot where the drum thangy that rotated along with the shaft thru the IP as I rotated the engine. It is an open slot across Drum?? t Was under impression it would be a gear tooth across that drum as rotated engine.

Is this slotted opening in the drum the Thangy I twas to be looking for?

I'll try to get a pic of similar off my ratted out engine. My Borescop does not have a memory card in its slot so will have to use my phone.

[coachgeo]

SEE UPDATE IN NEXT POST

this is what I see on Harmonic Balancer when see the RIV described above w/IP and Front case marks aligned. (Blue line w/yellow dots- not the MB pointer.. wish my H.B. was that pretty)

To me looks like sitting around 14 to 15 BTDC. Sound about Right?

[coachgeo]

Originally Posted by coachgeo

this is what I see on Harmonic Balancer when see the RIV described above w/IP and Front case marks aligned. (Blue line w/yellow dots- not the MB pointer.. wish my H.B. was that pretty)

To me looks like sitting around 14 to 15 BTDC. Sound about Right?

So freaking confused.

Re did it on both the Scrap engine and the replacement engine but this time via loosley pressing a small bolt into the area...... At around 20 and not 15 (see pic in above post for insight) ; it catches into a hole????.... orrrrrrrrr going by description/pic in other thread (see link) maybe it catches in front/behind a blade?? It would maybe make since if it was the blade and blade pinches the bolt ...... which does happen more so as it rotates clockwise position toward 15??

https://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/178349-how-set-ip-timing-via-drip-tube-method-pictorial-8.html#post4365138

Cause of sheen of oil / diesel... whatever it is; glossy in there..... the lights on my borescope dont give a good view so maybe it is not a slot, or hole.. Could be blade...... ???? Just can't tell shiat.

[vox_incognita]

You see, this "15 degree" "locking tool" / RIV thing is telling you nothing about the actual "Feed Begin" (let alone- about FB of all 5 elements).
One needs to physically verify it (drip method/pressure methd/capillary tube/shop equipment) .

[coachgeo]

Originally Posted by vox_incognita

You see, this "15 degree" "locking tool" / RIV thing is telling you nothing about the actual "Feed Begin" (let alone- about FB of all 5 elements).
One needs to physically verify it (drip method/pressure methd/capillary tube/shop equipment) .

Correct. BUTTTT prior ot that you need to know if the IP is installed close to correct / or if timing chain has stretched. ..

aka... How close is IP to being at the "baseline". baseline is Met when all the marks are pretty much showing at their home base setting. Granted if the engine is running. you sorta have a close to base line thing. IF engine is rebuilt and not running right yet. (my case). . you need to do all below to get a baseline established.

RIV/Locking pin blade center of port
HBalancer at 15
IP outside marking's; two stamped marks, are aligned
Cam Tower and Timing Chain Gear two Stamped marks are aligned

IFfff all that is pretty damn close THEN you can use Drip or any of the other methods to measure actually where Feed Begins.

Tried drip. too inaccurate. it just streamed out fuel just about every spot we put the IP that day. Never got a drip to happen. Others have reported same issue before..

Ordered a Timing light Converter box. (Clone of a Sealy) Was suppose to be here today and never showed up. With the Timing light Converter box . the timing light should flash (with sensor on #1 IP line) when the Timing Pointer passes the HBalancer's 24 (I think?? maybe 15? Maybe 19.5?)

[Diesel911]

Originally Posted by vox_incognita

You see, this "15 degree" "locking tool" / RIV thing is telling you nothing about the actual "Feed Begin" (let alone- about FB of all 5 elements).
One needs to physically verify it (drip method/pressure methd/capillary tube/shop equipment) .

Well, the timing locking pin compensates for timing chain stretch. But does not change the engine camshaft timing that timing chain stretch changes.

The timing locking pin is designed in this case for you to stick the pump back in the engine at the 24 degrees BTDC, bolt the pump in and get the engine started.

After that you should follow up with another timing method like the drip method.

What the timing locking pin is doing is timing the fuel injection pump camshaft to the egging and presuming that he internal timing of the elements was done correctly and within specs.

If you do a complete rebuild on a fuel injection pump of his type all the elements are drip timed. Number one is drip timed to the marks on the bearing cam pad drive gear. The rest are setup to a degree wheel and the firing order and drip timed to the specific degree for that element.