Leathermang

The reason they did these tests was to discredit hydrocarbons. If you really watched the tests they probably did not tell you how much was pumped into the car and there was probably not anyone there from the actual safety dept. they show these videos at a/c classes sponsored by 4 seasons. I went to one of these meetings, but the owner of the parts house made me promise not to say anything. The video was approximately 30 seconds to one minute long without giving credit to the one who produced it. I haven't seen one in 5 or 6 years. Do you remember the side collision tests on Chevrolet gas tanks that NBC produced. It was a proven fraud. Samee Samee. If you had a fire under the hood the fire would last probably 1 to 2 seconds and that would be the end of it because it wouldn't be hot enough or last long enough to catch anything else on fire. My personal opinion. I have duracool in every vehicle that I own and also in my son's Blaser and his work van. The average vehicle has about 12 oz. in the a/c system. I would be much more concerned about cooking over a backyard grill.

Leathermang,

One could then argue that all refrigerants, including r-134 which is known to burn and is poisonous, should be eliminated because not only would the car be burning, the r-134 would be emitting toxic fumes.

While we're at it, lets ban gasoline powered vehicles because they carry explosive, volitile fuel. We wouldn't want any of those cars getting on the road because of potential rear end collisions spilling 20 or so gallons of gasoline and causing massive fires.:D

What I'm trying to get across is that nothing is without risk. We don't live in LA LA land where risk is absolute 0. Using Duracool is no more risky than using r-12. BUT R-12 IT IS NO LONGER AVAILABLE AND IS NO LONGER BEING MANUFACTURED. It is only available if you want to pay an inflated price.



Herb
'82 240D
'87 300SDL
'92 300D 2.5 Turbo

Herb - R12 is no longer manufactured in the USA, but R-12 IS available for purchase. I've seen 30lb tanks on eBay go for ~$15/lb. Typical price is $20-$30 per can or pound, which translates into maybe $50-$60 for a complete charge in your car (after fixing leaks & evacuating). Given the labor involved with flushing for a retrofit, and/or the cost of new components, $50 is downright cheap. What part of "penny wise but pound foolish" isn't clear? It's not like R-12 costs $100/lb and the alternatives are free....! :rolleyes:

Dave,

When I first had my car converted to r-134 by an independent Mercedes shop here in Houston, he didn't have any r-12 on stock. He said he doesn't carry it. He did say that if I paid the price, he would get it for me and at the time it was over $100 just to fill my system.

There is a limited supply of r-12 but for how much longer? Who can definitely say that this supply will last for a year, 2 years etc? By then, nobody will stock the stuff because nobody will want to carry it on their inventory and mostly everybody that is driving new cars will be using r-134; who will have the use of r-12 when the system is designed for r-134? Carrying goods that don't sell (r-12) is very costly for any company. If the demand isn't there then nobody will carry the stuff.

I certainly hope that r-12 is available for those that want it.

Herb
'82 240D
'87 300SDL
'92 300D 2.5 Turbo

HMMMMmmmmm.......

So the "staged" fire that you saw only lasted 2 seconds. It takes much less time for a 500 pound bomb to explode. It's not time that is the issue here, it's heat and energy that is the culprit. If there is enough heat and energy, it matters not how long it takes to expend the energy, the damage can be done in far less than one second.

I continue to be amazed that the cost of R12 drives people to so many off the wall alternatives. Go back and read gsxr's last post. What he says is grounded in reality and practicality.

airfoill,

If the existing supply of R12 is not continually contaminated with duracool, hotshot, freeze 12 and every other snake oil that people can scare folks into buying, our R12 supply will last MANY YEARS. This is because there are zillions of cars requiring R12 hitting the salvage yards every day. This means that the only cars that will be left that require R12 will be the few that will be left in the hands of the enthusiasts such as ourselves.

Have a great day,

R12 is not longer manufactured in the USA but it is still manufactured and sold in countries like say Mexico, which we all know is so far away from planet earth that it does not cause any problems here:rolleyes:
It is a total scam that 134a was rammed down our throats in this country. I have seen video of the DOD using r12 sprayed out of what looked like a fire hose to clean wing sections of jet fighters. A one second blast of r12 used this way would have filled 100's if not 1000's of A/C systems. It's all "feel good" politics and nothing else. Same people who forced this on us are the ones who want a zero impact or "no trace" policy on the hiking trails I frequent. I am their worst nightmare when they encounter me on the trail. I like a BIG HOT CAMP FIRE, I will burn anything I find in the area including "gasp" plastics, trash, aluminium cans, etc. :D Then I will strip naked and stand in the hole I caused in the ozone layer. For some reason I have yet been vaporized!
So I have chosen to break all the laws in Florida and use duracool in my cars. When they come out with a fuel that does not burn I will rethink my use of hydrocarbon gases to keep me cool.

Personally I have 25lbs left in a 30lb tank of R-12, which I expect should keep my cars charged for the next 5-10 years at least. Invest in a tank, gauges, vacuum pump, and learn how to do the work yourself; and you'll still save a TON of money compared to paying AC shops that take advantage of the current "hysteria" surrounding R-12's phase-out and whatnot.

For the record I do agree completely with redfox on the ozone issue, that's a steaming pile of BS fed to us by DuPont, etc so they can force conversions to a crappier, yet more expensive, product. Dumping coolant and oil on the ground (which, sadly, is common and accepted in a lot of places!) does way more environmental damage than releasing refrigerants into the atmostphere ever will. Yet there are no EPA requirements to purchase & reclaim motor oil. Go figure...

Larry

Have you ever tried duracool ? If youv'e never tried it don't knock it. Rebootit has tried duracool and has tried to give you information that is legitimate, you have tried to put him down at every angle. Personally I don't care if you put me down. I've dealt with mechanics that are certified since I got my certifications 27 years ago. I know the answers to their questions, but does that educate me in all areas. No. I personally don't care if anyone believes me about what I say about 134a, but I do feel that is my responsibility to warn people about the dangers of 134a. Most people do not know that 134a has been used as a propellant in asthma inhalers and is in computer dusters. If you want to promote R12 from now on that is fine with me. When you say that systems were designed for R12 should only use R12 that is kind of like engines that were designed to use mineral oil should not use synthetics. Mechnical systems are designed to use something that is friendly to them. Duracool is friendly to a/c systems. It works great. I've sold more than 2 million dollars worth in the last 8 years. If it didn't work I would have been tarred and feathered by now. If it was dangerous the government would have shut me down by now. They have had plenty of opportunities. If what I have said on this forum is incorrect. Prove it. I've been fighting this battle for so long I've forgotten what it is like to have a normal life. I used to try to convince people of what I was saying, now I don't waste my time. The truth will come out in time. Larry I staged the fire you are talking about just to prove to myself that what I was saying was true. I don't want to cause any harm to anyone. Money or making a living is not a motivator to me. Money comes and goes, but integrity lasts forever if my belief in a loving Creator is true. God makes the best refrigerants.

I think the more simplified point is that DuraCool isn't better than R-12, so why switch to it, as long as you can get R-12 at a decent price?

I'm not saying DuraCool is a bad product, I know lots of folks happy with it, and it probably is a big improvement over R-134a. I still think the bigger issue (which has been largely ignored in this thread) is the OIL. Keep mineral oil in the system and your problems will be drastically fewer. The whole flammability concern, to me, is a joke... who cares? We have a better chance of being hit by lightning than being injured in a refrigent-related fire during a crash! Sheesh.

gsxr

Have you ever tried durucool? How do you know that R12 is better? Mikey likes it.

Nope... but their websites say it all. Duracool only claims to outperform R-134a, they try as hard as possible to avoid mentioning R-12. There is also minimal technical information on their site, which is annoying. The AutoFrost site specifically states that R-406a "Performs equal to or BETTER THAN R-12." They even warn that marginal cooling systems may have problems with R-406a due to the extra heat dissapated by the condenser.

From my research into alternative refrigerants, R-406a looks to be one of the best (if not THE best) R-12 direct replacements. It still has the issue of fractionating (as does Duracool) and requires a license (which Duracool doesn't). The tradeoff is that you can NOT use this with PAG/POE oils and therefore R-406a won't replace R-134a w/o an oil flush, unless you use their R-134a replacement product (totally different stuff).

But I still use R-12...! :D :D :D

Ok here we go. About a year ago I went from R134 to DuraCool in the 300D and yes, in my opinion, it did a better job of cooling than the 134. Since that time I picked up a '83 240D that had been converted to R134. To say the least the a/c performed marginally. I converted the 240D back to R12 and it will freeze you out. It is as cold or colder than the Honda CRV which was designed and built to run R134. Over the past couple/few months I have purchased an R12/R134 recovery machine and some R12 (I am 609 certified) and will soon be converting the 300D back to R12. I am hoping to have a cooling system that will perform as well as the 240D. The 300TD has always been R12 and it works great.

I meant to mention that I am considering purchasing an RV that uses Propane for operating the refrigerator/freezer when the generator is not running. Seems to do a good job keeping the beer cold:).

A reporter once asked Hemmingway what it took to be a good reporter... he said " you have to develop a built in shock proof crap detector".

At first it looked like Redfox knew lots about the chemistry of his product compared to other refrigerants... I thought he did a good job of the Duracool/R134a comparison.

So I asked him about a direct comparison of Duracool/R12 hoping for head pressures/latent heat/and whatever criteria is important for comparison....

Instead he gave an incredible amount of generalizations and several real ( I do not know if they were intentional ) misrepresentations of situations hoping the implied conclusions would point in the general direction of Duracool...

I am really disgusted and don't want to take the time to address all of them... so I am choosing this one for my example...

"Do you remember the side collision tests on Chevrolet gas tanks that NBC produced. It was a proven fraud. "---Redfox

I remember it very well.. and the fact that there was no question that the design placed only sheetmetal between a vehicle hitting the pickup from the side and the gas tank. I know of no other vehicle with the gas tank so unprotected. It does not take an engineer to figure this out.

When I was in Peace Officer training at San Marcos Texas in 1980 we were shown a list of cars which had problems with fuel tank rupture during accidents... I drove a Volkswagon at the time.. and my parents had a 1980 Toyota Corona. The Volkswagon, with no actual frame in the American car sense ... was pretty safe with respect to the fuel tank.. but the Corona was one of those cars which had no metal firewall between it and the passenger compartment... when hit from the rear fuel cascaded over the people inside the car.... I believe the early Mustangs had the same problem and that safety update information has been issued lately for that... Most people have heard on the news about the favorite car for police departments ( The Crown Vic ) having a problem with having placed the fuel tank in a crumple zone.. and those are being recalled and fixed.... and everyone knows about the Pinto.... the horrible fire deaths from bad fuel tank placement design....

The film crew of the television network was taking a perfectly good pickup ( except for the tank placement ) and another car and crashing them together.... But they needed it to catch on fire for more dramatic video....

So they provided an ignition source to make sure the fuel, which did not have to be rigged to splash under the vehicle, would catch fire for the demonstration.

To claim the demonstation was a fraud because they did not want (or could not afford) to wreck several vehicles in order to show the potential tragic effects of what happens when it was hit in a slow speed crash from the side is fraud in itself. All it takes for gas fumes is a hot exhaust pipe , if in fact the wreck did not cause sparks itself sufficient to cause ignition. It may have been " journalistic " fraud... but it was not a fraud in terms of showing the potential risk from a side mounted gas tank being ruptured in a minor collision.

EDIT ; Just today on the news they said GM had settled this suit for 500 million dollars and changed the design. Here is an interesting url about the history of this fuel tank mounting mistake

http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=94&did=504
End of Edit

Several of you miss important qualifying words that I have used.. one is " unnecessary" when talking about fire risk....Herb, that is the second time you have posted that silly statement about banning gas cars.... I do think that gas cars deserve bladders and or racing type fuel cells which decrease the rupture risk. Note that new cars have " inertia switches' to cut the electricity to the electric fuel pump in a collision. This is so the fuel pump won't evacuate the contents of the gas tank onto the highway under the vehicle.. making the situation look exactly like those where the side gas tanks of the Chev pickup were breached by a very minor side collision.

Concerning the amount of fuel (in the form of combustible refrigerant ) needed to do harm... Here are the urls to a site about rodent control... notice what they are able to do with 3percent propane and 97 percent oxygen....

http://www.building.org/profiles/98056.html
http://www.rodexindustries.com/

In Grain elevator explosions it is Dust that is the fuel... mixed with the air and encountering a spark.. often times just from static electricity built up....

Steel can be burned with a match if the steel to air ratio is corret... try it with a steel wool pad if you don't believe me..

So it is not necessarily the amount of fuel.. but whether it happens to be at the right mixture with oxygen when the ignition source is encountered....

gsxr---"We have a better chance of being hit by lightning than being injured in a refrigent-related fire during a crash! "
I do not agree with your assessment of the relative risk.

I still hope Redfox will present an honest , factual comparison of the physics of Duracool vs R12.

outcome
 

got the car back from the indy.. he said it prolly needs a new compressor , but the compressor is on and the air was freezing coming out of the vents. it is a little hard to tell how cold it was due to the low ambient temperature today. i will try to talk to the indy again tomorrw for a more detailed explanation.

redfox,

I like the idea of Duracool 12a as a replacement for R12 since it is compatible with all refrigerant oils and seals, I suppose. Does the Duracool can have a 16 acme thread that is the same as R134a cans?

Where can I buy Duracool in California?