Hardstarting E300
 

Well, it finally happened to me. After all these years of owning diesels and hearing other's misfortunes in the cold while never experiencing any of my own...it happened.

This morning it was 11*F in Allentown, PA. I was traveling overnight on business, checked out of the hotel, hopped into my car, and turned the key. There was a lot of cranking but no combustion.

I heard the relay switch go on and off. The glowplug light went on and off. There was no batttery dummy light on the dash. As far as I can see, there was nothing telling me that something was wrong. After several glows (10-12), she finally fired. Along with the ignition I was received a "check engine electronics" and "lamp out" message.

I have a few questions:

1) Why the trouble if there is no glow or fuel delivery issue (assuming such since no message while attempting to start the car)

2) I have started this car in colder temps this year without issue... why now?

3) Tech at MB (very helpful) said that the engine light may be due to 1) multiple attempts without a start 2) Low voltage from overloaded battery - How do I diagnose

4) How can I read the codes for this car?

5) Is there an underlying electrical issue causing my lights to go - I replace them often - and now this, coincidence?

PS - I run PowerService - Winter blend and use 5W-40 Rotella Sythetic

Thoughts are appreciated... Thanks.

I think I've read about someone getting a check engine electronics message when a glow plug was bad. If you're really interested, perform a search for "check engine electronics" here. Personally, I would suspect the low voltage condition to trigger it.

As for burning out bulbs, the early W210s are known for that. Don't know if there is a fix, but you might check over in Tech Help.

And please replace that Rotella with a real synthetic. Your 606 deserves it.

For what it is worth, I let my car sit for 10 hours outside today and then tried to start it. Outside temp was 12*F. It started right up just like it always has. I would assume that if there was a bad GP, I would have trouble again.

Rick you beat me to it...

I've been running D1 in mine and performed a few oil analysis's. My last one yielded 8,086 miles and I still could have gone longer. But by that point I had expired my oil to a safe level. Anyone else get similar results with their OM606's. This was mostly city traveling during the summer in good 'ol CT.

On the glow plug issue, glow plugs will definitly throw a CEL even when it is starting perfect. You may remember the trouble I had a few months back with a recurring CEL. It was alway's glow plug related. I finally bit the bullet and put a new set of GP's in it and I have not had a CEL since. Now it may still have been a voltage probelm in your case, however I would get ready to purchase a set of GP's. You need a scan tool to check trouble codes and to clear them too. I would try having someone clear the codes (after they tell what the code is) then see what happens, if the same GP code returns then get a set of GP's. I think the code was P3080 Glow Plug circuit.

Now on the oil, I am in Louisiana so I have no need for thin oil. I run Rotella T 15W/40 and go about 5000 miles between oil changes. I have no problems I have not run an oil analsys either so I do not know the condition of the oil at replacement. Th PO had a oil change interval of 3000 miles so between the two of us we have gotten 285000 miles out the engine and it does not use one ounce of oil between changes.

Well, I guess I will now need to respond to the oil jabs. Honestly, I appreciate them. I switched to Rotella 5W on my '92 and it seemed to work fine ie. quieter, easier to start etc... When I purchased the '96 this summer, it seemed only natural to continue to use it being that there was no recomendation from MB for synthetic in this engine and a fare amount of people I spoke with were using dino.

Addtionally, I have had a hard time swallowing the price difference. I drive 40-50K a year and at oil change intervals of 4.5-5K, I am doing oil changes about once a month.

So the price ($13/gal) for Rotella, compared to $22+ for D1 is considerable, many highway miles means less engine stress, and no MB recommendation for sythetic in this engine have lead me to my decision to use Rotella 5w.

That may sound like my mind is really made-up. However, it is not. I have over the past few months grown in my appreciation for the engineereing of the 606. Additionally, I am continually reading how D1 or M1 are superior products. However, I am not convinced that the use of these products will make a significant difference in the longevity/performance of my engine.

I am open to a new perspective. What made you guys chose D1?

Shoe,

Thanks for the insight. I will try to make it over to my indy this afternoon to see if he can read the code. Also, please see my post concerning the oil.

I have read horror stories on GPs breaking during replacement in this engine.

How hard was it for you to replace your GP's?

What kind would you recommend me use?

Did any of your GPs break while removeing?

I would appreciate your quidence if I do need to replace them.

I did quite a bit of reading about oil when I bought the E300 new in 1999. For me, it came down to this: synthetic oil remains stable at high temperatures where dino oil starts boiling off. When the lighter compounds boil off, they leave sludge behind. Sure, you change the oil and the new batch is supposed to dissolve the sludge, but why not use an oil that prevents the sludge in the first place?

The overriding concern for me was the turbocharger, where the bearings get super hot and the oil is prone to boiling off and "coking," leaving solids behind. But even though you don't have the turbo, your engine can no doubt benefit from the superior stability and cleaning capability of a true synthetic.

(Gotta get some work done. If gsxr doesn't pick up where I left off, then I'll add more later.)

I agree with your opinion about Rotella synthetic - I don't think switching to M1 or D1 will make a significant difference in engine longevity or cold start operation. Let the oil wars begin.....

I would change your glow plugs. PEH says the either work or they don't but that has NOT been my experience. My plugs seem to degrade over a 4-5 year period and eventually you get to a point where they won't ensure reliable starting in marginal conditions - just like your experiences lately. Resistive heating elements seem to have a definite service life, electric stove coils and baseboard electric heating elements come to mind. They will continue to work after a few years but you can see/feel that they don't produce the same amount of heat they did when they were new.

Of course if you don't ever experience marginal conditions you can continue to use your original plugs for a long, long time. This is why PEH heads to Florida for the winter.... I wish I could emulate his approach to the glow plug problem. I'm not sure he is saving any $$$ but I'm sure he is enjoying himself more than we are right now.

I'm curious as to wether the CEL light is related to a glow plug failure. I suspect it was and that the problem is intermittent.

I have no experience with OM606 engines and have read about the glow plug nightmares associated with RR'ing the plugs. If I were you I would change them myself and be very careful applying torque to the GP elements.

Tim

Slowmoe, I bought this car from Benzmac and the first thing out of his month was that he never ran synthetic in a diesel (his .02) Now I do not want to get into a discussion on oil types that horse has been beaten to death many times on this forum. I use Rotella T because it is less exspensive, I run Mobile 1 in my truck I like long oil change intervals and it only holds 5 quarts instead of the 2 gallons the car holds.

Now to the GP's, I had no trouble replacing them. I had a couple that seemed to have a little carbon on the tips and I had to coerce them out (gentle pulling and twisting motion) As far as the threads mine just unscrewed nice and easy. I understand that if the car is driven hard or like your mainly highway miles then there is not quite the carbon build up. Some of the pros may correct me on that, but it makes since to me. The intake takes about 15 minutes to remove. Also use the metal intake gasket that Fastlane offers not the paper one from some other suppliers. I think the only GP's available are by Bosch again Fastlane offers them too. I also remeber someone else posting something about reaming out the GP bores, I never could get an explaination on how to do that and It did not seem to make much difference on mine. One note of caution, the first couple of times I started my car after the replacement it started horribly. I followed another members advice to let them soak about 10 seconds after the GP light went off. I did that and they have been fine ever since. Let me know if youneed any thing else.

Thanks for all the info everyone. I just retuned from my indy, Rex Carle, Frazer, PA. He pulled the code - P1617.

In his words, "it's a bull@#*^ code that does'nt mean anything!! A little curious I aked if it was related to GPs or low voltage. He said that he thought that it would be the GP's, and that he gets those all the time - but this is not it. He thinks I probably picked-up a bad tank of diesel. He cleared it and it hasn't returned yet.

Does anyone know what this code is or how I can find out more about it?

If I did get a bad tank of fuel and had a hard time starting because of it, why didn't I get some code related to fuel supply?

Non winterized fuel can get waxy, and clog both filters and pump, so that no fuel gets injected.

Peter

Well, it has happened again, 22*F this morning and no start. The two dealerships in the area are not familiar with the code (P1617) and just want me to have it towed in.
Can anyone help with this code?

been there, done that! :(
 

Slowmoe,

I have a 95 e300d with the OM606 engine. The exact same thing happened to me last Saturday in Maryland. The wife and I went to a dinner party at 6pm. At 10:30 pm I started the car and it ran really rough and died. It was like 5 degrees outside.

Tried to start the car again...nothing. After trying this many times I could hear the battery getting weak. A friend picked us up and took us home. The next day it was like 30 degrees and the car wouldn't start. Used jumper cables to give it more juice, nothing. I suspected that the fuel had gelled. I added some kerosene (not much) but that didn't help as this was done after the fuel gelled.

Towed the car home. Put it in the heated garage for about 6 hours. Aimed a hairdryer at the fuel filter assembly for 20 minutes. Started right up!

While the car was thawing out I pulled the small screen filter on the fuel filter assembly. It was completedly dry! After heating everything up with the hairdryer I tried again. I was worried that the system had lost its prime...but read in the users manual that it is a self-priming system. Book says to push the accelerator to the floor and crank for no longer than 1 minute. So I cranked it for like 30 seconds and pulled the small fuel filter again. The "reservoir" for lack of a better term was filling up with fuel. Reinstalled the filter and cranked some more. Then it started right up!

The car ran rough. I let it idle for 20minutes. Drove it 2 or 3 miles to the gas station. Car was NOT giving full power. Stopped at a stop light and idle became very rough. Drove on to the gas station and car stalled as I pulled up to fuel pump. Uh oh I thought. I put in maybe 15 gallons of fuel (e300's take 23 gallons). Added a fuel winterized for diesels. Started it up. Still a little rough. Revved it up a couple of times and the idle went back to normal. Drove around town (not far from home) for 15 minutes or so at high and low speeds. It was fine after that.

Next day the car run fine. Temperature was in the 20s. Thursday night the temps dropped back to 5 degrees or so. So I bought some of those "hand warmers" at home depot for $1. I taped two of them to the fuel filter (big filter) with duct tape to keep things somewhat warm. Next day car started and ran fine. Perhaps it was the fuel additive, perhaps it was the handwarmers I don't know!

Anyway, you can't thaw out the fuel lines in 30-40 degree weather (at least not quickly). A heated garage + a hairdryer is your best bet. Check the screen fuel filter...should be wet/full of fuel if everything is normal...otherwise it will be empty. So let us know what you find. Good luck

Finally I read in the book that these cars have a block heater...but that the dealer must install the wiring (couldn't be too hard). Anyone have a part number?

Chuck
Annapolis, MD

I re-read the thread and saw that you did get your car started. Hmmm. I don't know about the codes...I don't think my car has a computer.

Re: computer codes. Sometimes they help, sometimes they don't. The wife's VW cabrio stalled at a stoplight and the check engine light came on. We took the car in to have it serviced. Code was something like "idle problem." Well gee that helps!
Mechanic didn't have a clue, cleared the codes and that was it.

I think it's a fuel issue.

Re: glow plugs. I think I need to do mine soon. I'm at 123K. Occassionally while driving the glowplug light will come on for 10 seconds and then go away. But other than the 1 cold start issue last weekend it has started just fine, everytime.

According to my code discriptions from Startek info code P1617 is listed as "Control module or not coded" It almost soounds as though your control module is temporarily loosing it's memory. Just a guess. It also makes a reference under test step - remedy, see HHT (hand held tester) "version coding" menu selection 5. If you get it to a MB shop your may want to show them this. Hope it helps.

Anyone have an idea if there coul dbe water in their fuel systems? Water freezing, thus permitting fuel to flow through? The fuel filter is heated by the engine using a recirculation system, so once th ecar is warmed up and running the fuel filter assembly is really warm. Touch it next time after you drive the car and it's warmed up.

As for me I know I might have a small water issue, I have some condensation on my fuel cap everytime I go to fill up. IS this normal or should I be concerned? I've never had a problem starting mine, but within th epast week sometimes she has some hesitation, but I feel that is fuel related. Other thna that my 606 runs without issues to cold weather...

Wow, thanks for all the info, guys. I am trying to cover all the basis... 1) Stong battery, fuel, glow, and compression.

Battery:

Since my battery light came on after cranking so much this morning, I took it over to Pep Boys to have them do their test. The battery is the origional from '96 and everything checked out fine.

Fuel:

I added additional PowerService to the tank and changed the spin-on filter. I am not sure how to remove the smaller one. I removed the 10mm bolt and the little plate that it goes through. I then tryied prying the plastic away from the metal housing and cracked a bit of it off. What am a doing wrong? My assumption is that if there was a filter issue that it would be the spin-on and no the basket as the basket is down-stream from the spin-on. Is this a correct assumption?

Glow:

Since my glow light is going on and off as normal and I hear the relay switching off after 30 seconds- I assume the GPs are good. Can I be wrong here? Also the P1617 code does not relate to GPs.

Compression:

Engine is waaaay to young for this!!

Chuck,

thanks for sharing troubles- misery loves company- but, I think we are having different experiences.

Shoe,

Thanks for the info on the code - but, what do I do with that kind of information... What would the dealership do?

Am I missing anything?

Unfortunatly there is not much you can do with the info I gave with out a hand held tester and I think that is a MB dealer item. As for the secondary fuel filter your are on the right track to replacement. With the 10mm blot out you pull the clear tube out and then with a flat screwdriver GENTLY pry the screen out going from side to side. I doubt this is your problem but it never hurts to look. As for water in the fuel and in Michaveli's case if you live in a humid place like me then a little condensation on the inside of the fuel cap is not unusual. I would only suspect water in the fuel if you just filled up at a different station than you usually do. I read chuck95300d comment and he may very well have a small point. If your fuel is gelling it may be starving for fuel. I wish I could be of more help I am just not used to such cold weather so I have not experianced these kind of problems.

Just to clarify, I don't think that there is a problem with the small filter, but rather you should look there to see if the cylinder that the filter fits in is full of fuel. Mine was not and would not start. Once I warmed everything up and cranked the motor it filled with fuel and started. In my case I think the fuel in the spin on filter was gelled. But now you've replaced your spin on filter and it will not start? How long did you crank it? Seems like you'd have to crank it a bit to fill the filter up with fuel first...then fuel should reach the fuel injectors. I don't think the glow plugs are the issue either.

Chuck

Just before I went on vaction for 10 days, I filled up a place around the corner from my house because it was so close and it was so late at night. I was doing this because I did not want my car to be in the garage for 10 days with only a 1/4 tank in it... in order to not have problems like this!

I usually fill up at truck stops on the highway (PA Turnpike and NJ Turnpike Sunocos mostly) The place around the corner is a Sunoco but gets little diesel traffic. I really should have known better. This afternoon after getting the battery checked I put in 8 gallons of Hess (minimum 42 cetane). This plus all the PowereService should resolve any fuel issue...I think.

If filled the spin-on filter with PowerService before replacing it (small funnel, very carefully). This really cuts down on the amount of cranking required to get it to initially fire.

Shoe,

Thanks for the info on the filter. But I still don't get it!! Does the screen fit into a plastic housing or does it go into a mettle one. Also, if I remove the clear fuel tube won't I introduce air into the system down stream from all the filters? This is one of those times I really wish I had a manuel with pictures for this model!!


Chuck,

I think that it is worth a check as well. I just do not want to brake anything trying to do it.

Slowmoe you remove the clear line and the conector it is connected to, it is sealed with an o-ring. It just pops out, the filter is the plastic piece that you are prying on. It is cone shaped. It fits into the metal housing. I should have been a little clearer. It will introduce a little air but not enough to worry about.

Shoe, thanks for making that more clear.

Would you guys believe that the "Check Engine Electronics" light just went off all on its own tonight!!!

Maybe that fesh diesel and the new filter did the trick. I will know tomorrow when I try to start it again. Although, it should only be 27*F in the AM here. You will all be the second to know!!

If it's nothing major, or an occurerence that happens every once in a while the CEL will go off on it's own. It varies, I've had a CEL take 70-80 miles to clear in as little as 10.

michakaveli,

That would make sense to me too if it were something that were NOT major. But, I would consider my car not starting as major and likewise expect a CEL that would provide an accurate decription of the problem.

Oh the Suspense
 

OK......did is start?

20*F outside this morning and no start!!!

I am really at a loss here.

Shoe, or others...

I spoke to my indy this morning. He said that if I got the car to him that he would start by replacing the GPs. $35/gp + $65/hr labor for 2 hrs = $360.40 after tax. I figure I can save the $130 in labor doing it myself.

His decision is based more on the fact that these are the origional GPs and that the car seems to start fine when it is warm than on any diagnostic information.

So, could I bother you for as much information as you can provide for a step by step on this. I have never needed to replace GPs before - so I am not sure if I even have all the tools that I need. I think you said that it is pretty straight forward.

I am still open to other suggestions. Thanks.

Sorry to hear it still wont start. Have you removed the fuel filter to see if it is not a loss of fuel? I would suggest spinning the filter loose to make sure the filter is full and you are not experiencing any fuel gelling or other fuel starvation. If you are certain that you have adequate fuel supply then here is what you need to replace the glow plug's. You will need a a 6mm allen socket for the intake bolts. The intake removal is very straight forward, remove the bolts and then the flapper valve vacum lines and the intake is off. You may want clean the soot out of the runners and loosen up the flapper valves while the intake is off (amazing the difference proper working flapper valves makes). Once the intake is off I think the glow plugs are 12mm, you will need a deep socket for this and on some of the GP's an exstension is needed. Be carefull when breaking the gp's loose there have been reports of some of them breaking (real bad news if this happens) once they are loose unscrewand pull out. If you encounter resistance after they are unscrewed then as in my earlier post gently twist and pull this is due to carbon build up. It really is easy to do the biggest issue is the potential of breakage. Let me know if these instructions are clear enough. Feel free to email me personally at rschust@entergy.com for anyothe info needed.

Shoe,

Would you recommend replacing the intake gasket? Or can you reuse the one already in place if it looks healthy?

"You may want clean the soot out of the runners and loosen up the flapper valves while the intake is off "

Sorry for some basic questions here...

What are the runners, how do I loosen the flapper valves - is this done by the cleaning of the runners?

Is there anything else I should do while I am in there?

What would you recommend to clean with ... brake parts cleaner? carb cleaner?

I am still unable to pry off the basket filter without feeling like I am about to break it. I will try to get in there again tonight. When I replaced the spin-on there was plenty of fuel in there and it looked good.

I think I will get whatever gasket I am suppose to from the dealer. It looks like the only time this week I will have to do this job IS TONIGHT. So, I will have to swallow the $44/ea GP from the dealer as opposed to $29 from fastlane, sorry Phil.

So, 12mm deep, 6mm Allen... some kind of cleaner. Is that it?

The runners is a term for the intake itself. Once you have the intake off and look at it where it bolts to the head you will see holes for lack of a better term, those are the runners. You will see that they are partially closed from soot unless you run the car really hard and keep it blown out. The flapper valves AKA resonance valves are on the bottom side of the intake and are attached with 10mm bolts. Remove them and clean any carbon on them and in the bores that they fit into. Oh by the way you will need to take the section of intake running fron the air cleaner to the intake off first I forgot about that part it has a flapper valve too. You will see what I am talking about. If my memory serves me correctly the allen socket and deep socket are all that is needed and I pretty sure of the sizes any body more certain than I am jump in here. It has been about three months since I had mine apart (memory is the first thing to go). A good carb cleaner that is not harmful to aluminum will work fine.

To all who are interested...the saga continues. Last night I finally completed the glow plug replacement. It was a nightmare - I actually did have a nightmare one night after working on the car. I had bad glow plug lodged in my stomach that the surgeon was unable to remove!!

Anyway, 5 of the 6 gps were stuck very badly. One electrical connection broke. Two gps were stripped from the 12 pt socket. Another later cracked in the head. After one week, all six were finally replaced.

I started the car last night in the garage - 28*F. It started and drove wonderfully - much better than before while cold. I parked her outside last night. This morning (5*F) I tried her again and NO START!!!!! - Same thing....crank, crank, crank and no fire.

Any other ideas???

How long are you letting the gp's run before cranking. I discovered that I need to wait 10 to 15 seconds after the light goes off or mine will run a little ruff on the first cold start of the day. And I am not in nearly as cold as you are.

When you turn the key on and the glowplug light goes out the glowplugs continue to heat...so let them heat for another 10-15 seconds before trying to start.

But I still think that the problem is the fuel and not the glowplugs.
Have you been able to remove the screen filter to check for fuel?

Here are a couple pictures.

In this picture the bolt and plastic hold down (for lack of a better term) is removed.

In this picture the fuel line has been pulled off and the filter removed. You can see the fuel in the reservior.

Do you have fuel in the reservoir? If not, perhaps the fuel has gelled again. 5 degrees is cold. Trying heating the area with a hair dryer for 30 minutes. Then crank for about a minute to reprime the system and the fuel flowing.

Good luck!

I have glowed multiple times until I hear the relay turn off consecutively without it starting.

Chuck,

You may be right with the fuel. I am thinking it is either this or an electrical issue that is preventing the GPs from working.

I was able to lift the basket filter but not completly enough to pull it off. It is so cold here that the lines are very inflexible. However, I was able to look into the well and it does NOT look as full as yours - maybe onw half. What did you attribute your problem to?

I attributed my problem to gelled fuel.

When I removed the small filter it broke. Colateral damage. I wanted to see if there was fuel in the reservoir to test my theory.

I don't see how the problem can be glowplug related. The glowplug light comes on and then goes off as usual. Your car started when it was a warm 28 degrees and your car doesn't start when it is bitter cold.

Below you will see a picture of the screen filter. $5 or so part.

The "hothands" are sold at home depot for $1 each. Lately when it gets around 5-10 degrees I duct tape two of them to the canister fuel filter to keep it slightly warm overnight. May or may not help, but couldn't hurt.

Chuck,

I do not see how it could still be a fuel issue as I have put in new fuel as well as a lot of PowerService.

I can get about 3/4ths of the filter out without feeling like I will crack the fuel line. From what I can see it looks real clean. Th last owner replaced both filters 30K ago. So far I have only been able to do the spin on.

The cold temperatures may be causing you to look in the wrong place. Hard starting has been reported a couple times as a result of air leaking into the fuel system. I think narwhal went through this recently. The O rings on the ends of those clear plastic fuel lines leak air. Next time you try to start, check those lines for bubbles.

Take a peek here.

Rick,

Thanks. I really thought that might be it. I just ran over to my indy's. The car is now parked there. I turned her on and looked as closely as I could with a flashlight at all the lines I could see and did not see any air bubbles. It is posible that with the poor lighting they were just not visable. I will tell my indy to look into it further.

Thanks again and please continue to tell me the "maybe's."

So have you been able to get the car started? Diagnosis from your mechanic?

No diagnosis yet. I am still waiting for him to get to it. Overall, this has been I very frustrating process for me.

I have a 97 E300D. Have had the same problem you are describing. Cranking without firing. I have a new battery and fresh fuel filters, so I don't think its fuel delivery because of the filters. The problem has been intermittent since this summer. I don't know if I have solved the problem, but I have found that one of my infrared ignition keys gives me more trouble than the other. When I use the "bad" key I can hear a clunk that sounds like a selonoid closing in the engine compartment. I know that when I hear that noise all I am going to get is cranking..... It's been cold here -5F and it's been starting fine.

Try fresh batteries in your ignition key and then synchronize the key by following the instructions in your owners manual. I would be curious to see if that fixes your starting problem. In the cold weather lately I have also been getting a check engine light that comes and goes. Probably time to take it in and get the codes scanned.

...Also, after cycling the glow plugs a few times without starting, try to go from switch off, directly to start (don't wait for the glow plug light to go out) mine would then start and die out...?? Very frustrating.

The word from my indy is that the control module for the electronic fuel injection is not telling to gps to switch on when it is cold outside for some reason.

His thought is that he might need to replace the control module. In his words, "this is big bucks."

Any thoughts?

Post in Tech Help or email Benzmac directly. Having owned one for a while, he might be able to help. Sorry to hear about this. :(

Seems odd that the whole control unit would be kaput. Maybe theres a sensor somewhere that's gone haywire. Sorry to hear this...electrical gremlins are very annoying.

Well, finally back from the shop!!!!!

I think we fixed but I am not absolutly sure. It started this morning with a half a crank and normal glow at 20*F - much different then usual.

In summary, I had been emailing with BenzMac for a few days. He led me to the control module for the electronic fuel injection. The theory was that at cold temps, the control module would not comunicate with the fuel injection. This is why I would recieve a P1617 code related to the main control module. Thankfully it was not the entire module $$$$!!

We waited for a few days for temps to dip low enough for the car to give me trouble so my indy could diagnose with confidence. We fell into a warm spell and tired of waiting, I told him to just replace it the module.

Like I said, this seems to have done the trick. I will know for sure next week when the temps dip back down into the teens..... Thanks everyone for all the help. I hope this will be the end of this post.