My Diesel Mechanics book (Shulz..pretty old school book) specifically states that the engine must be turning BEFORE you inject the ether. This is key. And they specifiy to do it from a distance and shoot the ether in the direction of the engine...not nessisarily direct (obviously varies from air filter setup to air filter setup)

If you spray it in, then start cranking...I think you are asking for problems.

But if you are cranking and THEN, while its cranking, give it a little juice...you are golden.

I would not be so worried about explosions or popping of heads. Anyone have that happen on a mercedes diesel yet? Doubt it.

Blowing out the head gasket and/or bending rods using starting fluid
 

Blowing out the head gasket and/or bending rods using starting fluid, heck yes.
I have not done it, but watched it happen many times!

Hmmm, let me think what diesel vehicles I have watched being wrecked using starting fluid, repaired or scraped after blowing out the head gasket and/or bending rods, Mercedes, Peugeot, Volvo, VW, Audi, GM, Ford, Renault, Citroen, Toyota, Dodge, Nissan, Honda, etc, etc...

The ones that bugged me where owners I warned, then to watch them spraying half the can of starting fluid into the intake in one long blast, jump in start up, and drive off trailing a massive white cloud and/or a terrible knock.

Done properly, with small quanitity of ether injected while the engine is being cranked (not before) I HIGHLY DOUBT any sort of serious engine failure.

I could see the extremes totally taking the engine out...but if done properly?

The overhead cam engines don't have rods so that would be sorta hard to bend anywho ;)

All piston engines have connecting rods.

That gave me an idea why not carry around a cylinder of propane? it would be safer than ether wouldn't it?

danny

Here we go again!
 

Here is some wise guy named Brandon 3141 something and he is telling us all how bloomin much he knows of "Ether", and then has the stupidy to make this statement, "don't have to worry cause overhead cams don't have rods anyway". What tree did you fall out of?

Brandon,'

I don't know what kind of mechanical wounderland you live in but in my 50 plus years of working on car/boat/airplane/heavy equipment/super tanker/rail road/ engines the only one I have ever seen without a connecting rod is a Wankle engine and they are few and far between.

Your engine does NOT need to be turning when you inject ether into it. If you spray ether into the air filter housing it will not get into the engine until the engine is spinning. It can't move up the air inlet until the spinning engine creates a vacuum and pulls, or in scientific terms the external high pressure pushes, the ether into the engine.

The only problem I have ever seen using ether in a Diesel engine is when the glow plugs are operable. When they are glowing the plugs cause preignition. This causes the engine to balk and puts an extreem load on the piston and connecting rod.

Wait till Brandon gets back from school.....I believe he does know his stuff but used a poor choice of words when he typed that out...lets give him a chance to correct that statement before crucifying him.

Yup, A friend of mine works on tractors, some have ether starts (looks like a 14 ounce propane can mounted outside the truck), but they do not have glow plugs, it is either glow plugs or ether start, NOT BOTH!

John
:cool:

I think he was talking about push rods. He probably thinks you guys are crazy!

Locomotives
 

On a really cold locomotive you shoot about half a can of ether into the air filter room and crank it over the cloud of smoke is so big it casts a shadow. The can is the same size as the camping propane tank. Of course these are 16 cyl engines 9" piston diameter 10.5" stroke 4400 hp

Please.
 

Please; relax, he is young:) , with a steep learning curve ahead.:eek:

Goodness! Yes I meant pushrod not connecting rod.

Never knew there was so much anger here on the forum to a simple work mistake.

Very unfriendly.

My apologies to anyone whom I offended with the wrong word.

BTW my quote regarding the engine needs to be turning WHILE the ether is being injected is NOT my opinion, it is a direct quote of a diesel mechanic book that is well older than me. I am not making this stuff up.

One of the old 4010 John Deere manuals instructs to add the ether when cranking the engine, not before. I think the reason is that they don't want it to build up in the intake or some such. The ether cylinder is near the key, so you can do both at once. No glow plugs on that baby, but below 10 degrees you'd better have plugged her in, or no way will she start.

Omegaman,

Those locomotive engines are 645E3's they have both turbo chargers and superchargers. The non-turbo models run about 3,000 hp. We used many of these in offshore oilfield suply boats. GM boasts that you can change out a complete power pack (head, piston, rings, liner, etc.) in 45 minutes. Maybe yes and maybe no.

We also used 10 cyl. opposed piston Fairbanks-Morse engines. These were also used in locomotives and submarines. Great engines if not a bit complicated.

Check out http://www.histomobile.com/histomob/tech/2/120.htm

Brandon,

Don't pay any attention to most of us here. When a situation like this occurs everyone harrumphs about, kicks sand, and acts highly indignent and then goes off to pick on someone else. The point being that NO ONE on this board came into this world knowing diddly squat about anything least of all engines. We all learned about mechanics exactly the same way you have or will learn. And when you get this point you will also chide the inarticulate, and if you don't you are letting down our side. Besides that it's a lot of fun to get every one stired up.

The problem with the entire discussion is that the amount of ether utilized to start the engine is not specified.

If one would spray about 20 seconds of ether directly into the air cleaner and start the 617, there is every likelihood that damage to the engine may occur. This could be a blown head gasket or, in the worst case, a bent connecting rod.

So, Roy would be correct in his observations of the many diesels that have suffered an untimely demise.

However, if used judiciously, as Brandon has explained, a bit of ether can get you out of a serious jam when it's very dark and very cold.

Brandon would be entirely correct to use a one or two second shot of ether to just get the 617 firing. Damage to the engine with such a small amount would likely be impossible.

So, in conclusion, both Brandon and Roy are correct............the amount of ether is the critical factor.

It's funny that this subject resurfaced AGAIN-just yesterday I was trying to get an old 6.2 NA Suburban started that had been sitting out of fuel for 2 years-used a 6 gallon can of #1, a piece of hose ran right to the fuel lift pump w/a marine primer bulb, squeezed until both hands were sore, both batteries fully charged (AND jumped w/the Dodge's 2 batteries & the Cummins running), cranked & cranked & cranked, ran the burb's block heater for 90 minutes, sprayed WD-40, propped the heat gun into the intake, barely a sputter!!! Got p***ed off, got ether!!!

1 seconds worth into each side of the intake, it kicked back a little on the first 2 compression strokes, started like a champ on the 3rd!! Just like everything else, use some common sense and ONLY AS A LAST RESORT!!!

1966 200d Started with Ether
 

You should read this. This 1966 Mercedes 200D started by the seller with ether after off the road since 1975. This ether is powerful stuff!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1966-Mercedes-200D-Sedan-Diesel-53K-Original-Miles_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6783QQitemZ8022772944QQrdZ1

I was going to ask why you didn't whip out a cell phone camera. You (well your video and the guy doing it) would be world famous! :eek: That's when I noticed the date. :D

Ether.....

As a previous of a tractor dealership let me tell you when a fellow brings in a Kubota (even old ford diesels) with 4 empty cans next to the seat he is spending at least $2500.

All for the want of 4 glow plugs he went and got the poor girl "hooked" on the juice.

Cold start for me is a rag with "some" gas on it waved in front of the intake.

Ether is best used for cleaning parts.

I have a hard time understanding the fear of ether.

I'm in several diesel forums, concerning a variety of diesel engine types and configurations. Most members in all these forums seems to feel that ether is like an elixer of the devil himself (herself? :D)

Ether can be used to start a diesel engine without negative results. Intelligence must accompany the finger that pushes the nozzle on the can. Too much of a good thing is not a good thing. There are lots of ether horror stories, almost all caused from hot GP + ether, or simply too much sprayed into the engine. I've used it for years without any problems. The father-in-law, diesel mechanic for 43+ years, also uses it, and feels the same way about it.

A chainsaw is a wonderful tool. But be careless with it, and bad things are going to happen. Be sensible with it, and you can use it for years and have no problems. Be foolish with it, and you're probably going to damage something (likely yourself).

I'm not trying at all to convince anyone to use ether; if you don't like it or need it, use something else. Just be smart when using it and there won't be any issues.




Just my 2.01c worth.:)

Except the risk of blowing a headgasket.

I don't like using ether period. Especially since you can start a diesel just as well with WD-40. WD-40 fog ignites easily so be careful!;)

Agreed. WD-40 is IMO useless as a lubricant, but well known among big diesel folk as starting fluid. Even works with Wankel (aka: rotary) engines where regular starting fluid will destroy them.

Using starting fluid of any kind in a glow-plug or heated intake engine is risky without disabling the glow-plugs and overdoses can cause bigger problems, even in big diesels it can cause stretched head bolts etc.

whunter;all,

it's been said for eons in the US Army that: "NOTHING can be made idiot-PROOF because idiots are so ingenious."

over the years, i've found that to be TRUE! = promiscious use of ether in engines of all kinds is one of those.

yours, tn46 :D

My '77 U1000 Mog has the ether injection option. No glow plugs in the OM352.963 engine. Of course the little cartridge cans to put in it are probably impossible to find now.

I had a CAT with ether injection also, called a "cold start aid". The trick is that the ether only goes in in a controlled shot, not as long as you want to hold the button etc., and was disabled if the engine was on. That of course was a non glow-plug direct-injection 10.4L engine, big difference w/o glow-plugs.

Oh, and I agree on "idiot-proof". In my too many years of Engineering, I preferred the term "idiot resistant".

Go to your local Penske truck service center. The original cans may be hard to find, but heavy trucks use this system and an upgrade is surely available!;)

I watched whunter use ether and he uses it exactly as described.
He didn't mention that he also does not run the glow plugs when he starts them this way. GPs and ether dso not mix.

Would it be safer to wait another minute for the glow plugs to cool off (from red hot) after you hear the glow plug relay click off before cranking the engine?

I have been told by several folks that the chemical make up of WD40 has changed and it is no longer flamable and will not help a diesel start.

My powerstroke truck sat for over a week in sub zero weather a month or so ago.

I plugged in the block heater a while and tried to start it - nothing. After replacing the fuel filter (I suspected it was frozen) pouring fresh diesel into the filter housing with the new filter - charging the batteries, etc.... it would crank and smoke, but not start.

wd40 had no effect...

In desperation, I sprayed about a 1 second burst of ether into the air filter housing AFTER waiting for the glow plug relay to shut off (and a minute or so after that) and the engine started - it did rev up over 2500 rpm even with that little amount of ether.


So - certainly it is a last resort and must be used with care.

one more method
 

room, my neighbors 1985 300d didnt get the heat from the block heater because of a broken ac cord,near zero degrees,i took 2 five gallon buckets and filled with hot water from the house water heater,poured slowly over the valve cover,kept the water comming for 4 total buckets,cranked the engine and got a start.
larry perkins lou ky

wd40 is not a cold start aid. It is a way to start the car if you have a need to bleed and for some reason your prime pump does not work correctly. You have to spray it directly into the intake and keep spraying it. if the engine is sound it will run on the wd 40 until the fuel lines bleed themselves and take over as long as you keep spraying.

Thanks for clearing that up for me - and for making the point about priming - as I'll be needing to do just that once I finally put my 606 back together again after replacing all the fuel lines, rebuilding the fuel pump, and replacing the delivery valve seals, and having the injectors rebuilt....
You probably just saved my new starter a lot of un necessary cranking!
Thanks a million!

My pleasure.

Using even a 1-second shot of ether into a high-compression, indirect-injection diesel engine with precombustion chambers and glow plugs is pure idiocy. Most cans of ether explicitly warn against using it in that type of engine. Cracked rings, bent rods, all sorts of fun things can happen. The ether simply ignites too early in the compression stroke.

Most engines can bs started normally (without ether, or WD-40, or gasoline, or anything else) if the glow plugs, battery, and starter are all in good condition. If they are not, fix them. Or you could be the proud new owner of a 1000-lb doorstop / shop ornament.

It's a shame the first post on this thread can't be deleted.


:deadhorse:

So if you are planning to use ether (starting fluid) and want to be safe...disconnect the glow plug relay. No chance of igniting the gp's and a quick 1 second burst into the air intake and you'll be good to go.

I have not had any luck using wd-40 as a starting aid. I have also never tried the gas on a rag trick. I'll keep it in mind if all other measures are out of the picture.

I like the idea of of th GP Relay disconnect.

This is a long thread and I might have already posted on this but where I worked my Boss sometimes used Ether. But, he never never squirted it in and ran around and tried to start. He always had someone else crank the Engine while he sprayed just enought to get the Eninge going. This way he controled how much Ether was used.

I also have seen him use the Gasoline on a Rag trick on a Big Righ Cummins. He dipped a old T shirt in Gasoline and stretched it over the Turbo Intake (all the intake ducting/tubing was removed) and held it tight. The Truck did start but we did not rev it while he had the T shirt on.
I have also seen him use WD-40, but I think the distance and the twists and turns in my 84 300D would keep the WD-40 from getting into the combustion chamber. Also, a cold day I doubt if WD-40 evaporates enough for anything to get into the combustion chamber.

Disconnecting the glowplugs is counterproductive. They do much more to help start a cold engine than ether.

How is this for further clarification?...disconnect the glow plug relay if your GP system is having issues and one or two may still be capable of glowing...again just to be extra safe and secure.

Sure fix the system but circumstances may dictate a delay in the repair

I used wd-40 on mine a couple times when I had a couple bad plugs. Small squirt into the intake of the air cleaner and it fired right up, it was about 10 degrees those 2 days, so yes it will work on your 300d in cold weather.

You guys just don't get it. The glow plugs are only half the problem. The other half is the high compression. Ether is designed for use on LOW COMPRESSION diesel engines. I'm not sure how else to 'splain it... but good luck if you are dumb enough to use it on any OM60x / OM61x Mercedes engine.

:nuke:

What in the world is a " low compression diesel engine " ? LOL

I suggest all this hand wringing is unnecessary because the number of btu's ( power ) in a couple of seconds of ether or starter fluid spray is way less than the power produced all the time by regular diesel fuel...

The one time you really really should NOT use either is if you have a heated intake on your diesel... like my ford tractor... but it says exactly that on the side of the engine.

I think JimSmith has posted the definitive explanation on this subject... somewhere in the archives...

Approx 16:1 instead of approx 22:1 ratio. Pretty common among older direct injection engines. Most indirect injection are the higher compression ratios (MB & VW through about 1999, anyway).



You're missing the point, LMG. The ether ignites at the wrong time, too early in the cycle, and tries to force the piston down when it was trying to still move upwards. Has nothing to do with BTU's or power, it's timing. Great way to crack rings.



And on any engine with glow plugs, you really really should NOT use ether... and it says exactly that on the side of the can of starting fluid.


:chinese2:

I think whunter & Brian have some good advice. The only time I have used ether is a quick spray in an old 871 GM 2 stroke in a scraper, they don't have much comp at the best of times. Anything with glow plugs doesn't need ether!

That is nice theory.

If you are out in the country at a job site and your equipment or your car will not start except with the addition of a spray of starter fluid and you have to get it going that day... what exactly do you suggest for the alternative ?

I know several people who have used gas mixed with their diesel to get started in very cold weather.. as per the MB owners manual.. I know of bulldozer operators who ran out of diesel and had to use straight gasoline to start and get back to the diesel can ... and lots of people who have used starter spray with no bad effects when they needed it...

It is often the case that a few examples of damage ( and from situations where the variables are not known before or after ) using something are repeated as horror stories that the actual percent of incidence is lost in the flags flying around... We might be talking about five engines damaged in 20 million applications of starter spray into the intake... I have no idea...

I still say that if the only way your car will start is with a two second spray into the intake of starter fluid with the engine being cranked over go ahead and use it because there are often no reasonable alternatives.

That's fine if you are using the ether on YOUR engines - if it breaks anything, you have to deal with the consequences. It's an entirely different story if you're recommending that OTHER people do this. You conveniently escape from any problems that may occur afterwards. Unless you're willing to pay the repair bill...?

Besides, I have personally tried using ether on a diesel engine with glow plugs (in desparation, on my own engine, years ago) and guess what? It didn't work. The engine just made rude noises and didn't fire anyway. A fully charged battery, working glow plugs, and block heater worked every time when ether didn't. I'm glad ether works for you, but I don't think it's wise for anyone to publicly recommend a procedure that is forbidden both by MB, as well as the label on the can of ether itself.


:Peace!: