The Big Timing Chain Question
 

I spent hours and hours reading posts on this forum on when to replace the timing chain and it seems like the general opinion is: keep checking the chain for stretch and replace it when stretch reaches about 5 degrees.

However, today I contacted a mechanic who was highly recommended to me as someone who is very knowledgeable on these old MB diesels and this is what he had to say about timing chain replacement: when your car reaches 100,000 miles, just replace the chain. I explained to him that there are a lot of well experienced folks on this board who own several of these vehicles and that they recommended that you simply keep your eyes on the stretch before you decide to replace the chain and he said that it is rubbish .:confused: Then when I told him I have just 149,xxx miles on my 1984 300SD he said: since the previous owner didn't change the chain, if I were you I wouldn't be driving that car.... I have seen cars with very nice looking chains break... the only proper way to measure chain stretch is to take the entire chain out and place it right next to a brand new one and then make a comparison.

Let's just say that right now I am COMPLETELY CONFUSED on which way to go! Advise please.

How much money will this guy make changing the chain for you?
What reason would we have to misslead you ?

The factory shop manual says when stretch gets to a certain point put the offset key into the cam sprocket to fix it... like four sizes are available to bring it back to stock... when the offset key can not accomplish that then you need to replace the chain.
Keep in mind that the chains seldom break THEMSELVES.... it is usually lack of upkeep on the chain rails and slides.... they wear through or come off and catch the chain and cause problems....
I think renewing those every 100,000 miles would be good protection... I am not sure if that can be done without removing the chain.... someone will know and should speak up soon.... I assume they can ( at least with small hands ).... LOL

He wants $400 to do it... and that includes the cost of the chain. But I don't know if he included the cost of changing the rails, etc

I understand that no one here would mislead me. This place is full of good people. :)

He just sounded really cocky about it. What mostly got me super confused is the fact that from reading what's posted here , some folks have MB diesels with 300K miles, 384K miles, etc still running on the original chains and injectors. When I mentioned that to the mechanic he just said, "yeah I've heard those myths too." Now I know these aren't myths, but that just got me confused.

You really do not hear about many chain failures on the 615, 616, 617 series engine, at least not on this board. I suspect that chain failures are predominately caused by infrequent oil changes and generally poor/bad/non-existent maintenance practices. Something that, if you admitted to doing around here, would merit an immediate whack on the hand.

Lilly's chain had 267,000 on it with about 9° of elongation when I replaced it 'on principle', and just to be able to say I'd done it too. FWIW, the banana rail is a gold-plated PITA to get out. After inspecting it, I decided that it wasn't worn enough to warrant changing. IMHO, that particular part must be made from ailen materials found at the Roswell site to withstand 250,000+ miles of operation and exhibit not one whit of appreciable wear.

FWIW, wholesale for the chain is somewhere between $80-$110, the master link is about of bucks and the tensioner and thermostat housing gaskets are another $2-$3.

It's not a hard job (motor mounts are tougher) but is tedious and time consuming. Also, it is imperative that you remove the rail tensioner before rolling in the new chain. Once the chain is in, replace the tensioner and 'reset' according to the FSM's instructions.

His motives may not be the issue, it may be a difference of perspective. Since he is a mechanic, if it were his car, he probably would change the chain just for good measure and because it is cheap insurance. I grew up on honda motorcycles and my rule was: keep the chain tight, the valves loose and the oil clean. That idea came to apply to all engines in the many years since.

If you want (think you need) a new chain, change it yourself. I have changed chains in many engines and it is not a bad job, just don't let go of the chain. Keep it (them) wrapped around the sprockets every second of the job and don't let it hang loose.

Cars are more than just transportation to many people, if you would be proud to change your timing chain, do it.

About 2 years ago I nearly bought a 300D, but got to know the new owner thru email discussion about biodiesel.
after a year she asked if I knew anyone with a 300D head for sale. It seems her mechanic recommended she replace the timing chain.
She agreed and he did the job.
A week later, the new chain came off and IIRC. destroyed the cam blocks, valves and there was damage to one piston.

The engine was repaired, but she was without her Merc for about 6 weeks. She sold it when she got it back, because she didn't trust that mechanics work anymore.

My interpretation is that he didn't install the chain joining link correctly when he changed the chain. The joining link pins need to be deformed by using the chain setting tool.

As R. Leo said, chains rarely break in the 615, 616, and 617 engines. By the way the chain is the same part # for all 3 engines. I have 335k miles on my 83 300TDT, and I just keep an eye on it. I am anal about oil changes which keeps the wear down. If you see signs of chain stretch, I'd recommend replacement rather than installing the offset keys. Compensating for chain stretch is not their intended purpose. Offset keys are used to bring cam timing back to specs after stock removal from the head during a valve job.

Peter

The chains may not break that often, but every year we see a few unlucky friends here that have catastrophies with something breaking in there, most likely a slide. I say most likely because there is so little left to work with after that happens.
I say just change those parts now, much cheaper than the alternative. Besides, after changing the timing chain, with over 330,000 on my 78, it lost that annoying idle miss.
Can't say the same for my 81, but that was the problem with the older beast. BTW, it had 8 deg of stretch.

" Compensating for chain stretch is not their intended purpose. Offset keys are used to bring cam timing back to specs after stock removal from the head during a valve job."

That is completely OPPOSITE of what the Mercedes Factory Shop manual says.......

OHMYGAWD, not another timing chain thread!
 

I'd be willing to bet that guide failure isn't usually the direct result of chain elongation but however, the failure of the tensioner to take up all the slack.

And, I'll bet even more money that there are sufficient warning signs prior to this failure as well (rough uneven idle, poor performance, excessive noise from the chain vault ect.)

Obviously, the tensioner can't do it all but poor maintenance (infrequent oil changes for one) would allow the oil gallery going to the tensioner to eventually gook-up and not pressurize the tensioner (IIRC oil ony flows into the tensioner cavity, not through it). Ultimately, when the chain had elongated enough for the tensioner to move to the next detent, it wouldn't/couldn't and voilá: chain slap, slack and eventually whap, there goes the leading edge of the guide just downwind of the cam sprocket.

braverichard, how far off is your cam timing now? If it is not more than 4 degrees you should think seriously about leaving it alone. If it is just a little more you can install an offset key. You can see the condition of 1 upper guide and the tensioning rail when you have the valve cover off. Then you can check your valve clearances and spend your money on good lubrication.

braverichard, I think that mechanic is full of rubbish and he's simply trying to make money. The proper way to go is to check the chain for stretch and inspect the guides and tensioner. Every car will wear its chain at a different rate, and to say that every car needs a timing chain replacement every 100K miles is BS. I know LarryBible went 300K+ miles on one chain and it still had very little stretch at that time. Of course chains do occasionally break, but it's usually caused by something jamming the chain, not by the chain itself. That's why replacing the chain without paying attention to the guides and tensioner is useless.

This mechanic may also be betraying a V-8 gasser background. His advice would be sound were this the M117 or similar vintage engine. The inline 6's though, and the diesels, place far less stress on the chain, and with proper care may well last the life of the car. If you have an engine that requires mechanical valve adjustments you should be in there so frequently that you'd detect dangerous chain stretch long before it can become a problem.

Again going by the book, Mb allows for about 3 degrees stretch. If there is a problem of power then an offset key can be used, but if the stretch is more you must replace the chain. As I stated earlier the primary reason of the offset key is to correct for stock removal as stated in the section on refacing cylinder head parting surface.

Peter

NOT TRUE NOT TRUE NOT TRUE
 

"Mb allows for about 3 degrees stretch. If there is a problem of power then an offset key can be used, but if the stretch is more you must replace the chain. As I stated earlier the primary reason of the offset key is to correct for stock removal as stated in the section on refacing cylinder head parting surface."

NOT TRUE NOT TRUE NOT TRUE.
You have not read the MB factory shop manual.

For you guys with math knowledge but no manuals.... can you imagine the amount which would have to be shaved from a head in order to produce this effect ? LOL... not even close...

The manual says specifically that the offset keys are to correct for chain elongation... and that only when you have used the most offset of them and can not get the engine to specs that you must replace the chain...
I can start copying the manual and posting it... but that should not really be necessary...

Leathermang,

Go for it.

Peter

LOL, By your leave sir,....
the problem with posting from the manual is the way they put the writing so far from the picture they are referring to... takes two pictures for each one...
I may ask RLeo for help on this... putting the pics together before posting them...
For any of you guys that already trust me... trust me on this one.... LOL
I realize I am probably at the really slow end of the internet hookups... a slow dial up... but when I get a bunch of pictures on a thread it takes forever to check out the last post and keep up....so I try to minimize it for others in my situation....

Chain stretch...
 

I know we Newbies are a pain, but we know so little yet crave to do so much with our new 'old' cars. Thus, please excuse the carpet-bombing of questions. (We have even more when we buy a cheap/rough one)
How do I check for chain stretch? I need to do a valve adj. just to have a starting point for this car that I trust, and I assume I will check for stretch at that time. I just want to do it accurately, thus my question.
Leathermang, I'm on slow dial-up too.
Jimmy

Newbies can easily avoid being a pain by reading the Sticky at the top of the page about searches... and then following it as far as they can... sometimes they do not know what words to use for a good search... feel free to ask about that.... then actually look at the threads that come up on the search.... and then if any questions persist.... feel free to ask them.... if you have read the already posted items it will show up as good questions... which no one minds answering...
One more point...
Work on getting as much hard paper or CD literature on your car as you can....
This forum can NOT provide enough of the safety warnings and the mulitiple parts changes found on these cars... typically three different designs per major item...
The Factory Shop Manual ( assisted by such things as alldata.com Tech bulletins for corrections to what came from the factory ) PLUS the experience of the forum members can keep these things going pretty much forever.... but it is a lot of reading and learning...( at least to do it cheaply... one can go pay big bucks to some good mechanic if you want to ... but knowledge of your car is about the only way to tell if your mechanic is good..... and honest ).

Leathermang,
By your expression" by your leave Sir" I take you to be a fellow Navyman. I ,however, was not an officer. I was a master chief. I assume you were also a fellow enlisted man. Remember there were Es and Zeros.

Peter

MEASURE IT!
 

braverichard,

You ARE correct. The mechanic you talked to is ignorant! Changing chains at any preset mileage makes absolutely no sense. Chains tend to break when they are either flawed (usually happens in the first 50kmi) or when they are worn, NOT because the odometer rolled over 100,000 miles. Measuring the chain is an easy procedure and takes only an extra minute or so when adjusting the valves and no more then 30min by itself. Recommended replacement is at 5 degrees stretch on the 617's. As long as it's under 5-6 degrees of stretch the chain doesn't require replacement, and furthermore, Mercedes doesn't suggest that the chain is in danger of breaking until the stretch is close to 10 degrees!


Procedure for checking chain stretch
http://home.tiscali.no/henriksen/mercedes/maintenance/TimingChain.htm

I hope this clears up your confusion.


Chris

I've read the area in my FSM about chain adjustment several times and come away with the clear understanding that the chain is checked periodically for elongation and corrected with an offset key as necessary. Upon teardown of a 617 with 248,000 mi (from a parts car) I saw about 5 degrees offset. With a new chain and original woodruff key, the rebuilt motor now measures 0 degrees offset. The original 617 from the car sits next to it in my garage, after 301,000 mi. I've haven't checked it yet. Who wants to guess what it is?:confused:

When I did the chain on my '83 300D, it had about 7 degrees stretch. Big thing to me was the wear on the tensioner guide. It was significant. Replaced the tensioner guide and the left side guide. Royal PIA to do but I made up a little puller for the pins and that helped. Car had about 350K on it and I have no idea when the chain/guides were last replaced. My new '86 SDL had a chain done recently before I bought it. Paperwork says nothing about changing the guides, so first time I have the valve cover off, I'm gonna be looking real close at them.

Autozen, Sorry, that was proper procedure in other branches too....I was a CW2 flying Huey Slicks in the Army...

Leathermang,
Thanks for the lesson on military courtesy. I wasn't aware of that. We do have some quirks in the Navy though. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Navy is the only branch of service that allows left hand salutes.

It's not routine to replace the guides on a Mercedes diesel when replacing the chain, unless the engine is being rebuilt. I'd question the previous owners maintenance routine, due to the high wear you found on your car BobK. When stretch gets to 7-8 degrees it's critical the chain be changed immediately to preclude destruction of the engine. At around 10 degrees of stretch the valves and pistons begin to collide.

As for using offset keys, they're not meant to be used to correct chain stretch. They're major use is to correct for manufacturing tolerances or for changes resulting from resurfacing the head. when a chain is worn enough for you to notice a difference in performance (over 5 degrees assuming the inj. pump is set correctly) it's worn enough to have the serious potential to break and using an offset key to correct the stretch doesn't change this. Just change the chain when it's worn.

Chris

WRONG WRONG WRONG
 

"As for using offset keys, they're not meant to be used to correct chain stretch. They're major use is to correct for manufacturing tolerances or for changes resulting from resurfacing the head. "

Now be honest with us... you don't have a Factory Shop Manual for the 617 turbo engine .... do you ?

Even without the shop manual... have you computed the amount of head location difference which would be required to produce anything like the amounts of chain location difference we are talking about ?

The offset keys are meant to correct UP TO 10 degees of chain elongation... this is very clear from the manual .... Just as Pete Burton mentioned....

AND that is not the way to check chain stretch which you provided a link to... do a search and you will find a great thead on that... with Steve Brotherton adding the coupe de grace on that cam marks idea....that is only for initial setting of the cams when doing a rebuild... one reason you may be misled is that the picture shows using the cam marks to find the compression stroke for several operations..... but using number one valve position is the accepted , accurate , way to check chain stretch.

leathermang,

Offset keys are used for adjusting the timing when the chain is not at fault (not worn) like correcting for manufacturing tolerances or for changes resulting from resurfacing the head (on a new or rebuilt engine). A M-B diesel engine is quite insensitive to small differences in cam timing. Chain stretch up to 4-5 degrees (about 2 degrees of pump timing error) will have very little( if detectable at all) effect on performance and providing every thing is ok (sprockets not worn) changing the chain will bring timing back to normal, making there NO need to use offset keys!

And that IS the correct way to check chain stretch.
Please see this TSB: http://www.meimann.com/docs/mercedes/OM60x_Timing_Chain_TSB.pdf

The procedure is all very clearly spelled out in it.


Chris

Does an 84 SD have a 617 engine ..... ?

Your reference is for 602,603 and 606 engines....

You do not own a MB Factory shop manual for a 617 turbo engine.... do you ?

You guys are going to go make me double check my genuint paperback OM617 Turbo Diesel factory service manual. But from memory and skimming previously, I think leathermang is right.

Whooo. Sounds like a fun discussion here. I'll weigh in with my opinion (which is worth what you each are paying for it). Note that in this discussion, the engine type is VERY IMPORTANT. The criteria are drastically different for 61x and 60x. With that said:

For iron-head OM616 and OM617 engines:
The FSM says up to 10 degrees can be corrected with offset keys. The keys are available in 2, 4, 6, 7.5, and 10 degree increments. Does the chain need replacement? That is harder to tell than you'd think. I have heard of more than one fine-looking chain failing in a big way. For the 61x engine, my opinion is that it's not a bad idea to replace it on principle after ~250kmi, and maybe waaay sooner, if you intend to keep the car a long time. Another interesting factor is that the stretch (elongation, whatever!) does not necessarily return to zero with a new chain. This is, IMO, due to two things - first, the possibility of worn sprockets. Second, sloppier tolerances in the engine design. I believe the latter is why Mercedes allows correction with offset keys. I have a friend with a 617 who heard a funny noise, and discovered a chain link plate broke free and was cutting a groove through the timing cover! :eek: He rolled in a new chain. No offset key. Sprockets looked fine. We used my factory crimp tool on the new master link. When it was al done, the NEW chain showed SIX degrees off! Egads, it's worn, change it! :rolleyes: By Mercedes standards, his new chain can only stretch 4 degrees from new before it will require replacement, as it will exceed the 10 degree limit. Get the picture?


For aluminum-head OM601, OM602, and OM603 engines (and possibly 604/605/606 as well) :
The FSM is extremely explicit about these engines. When chain stretch (sic) reaches an indicated 4 degrees or more, replace the chain. There are no offset keys produced or allowed. A service bulletin (separate from the FSM) specified a more conservative limit of 3 degrees, instead of 4. My 603 chain showed 4 degrees stretch at 220kmi. When I rolled in a new chain, it returned the indicated stretch to ZERO, unlike the 617 engine. I believe this is due to tighter tolerances in the 60x engine design, hence the factory requiremnt for replacement, rather than adjustment.


The OM60x service bulletins are here:

http://www.meimann.com/docs/mercedes/OM60x_Timing_Chain_TSB.pdf

http://www.meimann.com/docs/mercedes/OM60x_Timing_Chain.pdf


Happy valve timing!

:D :D

difference after new chain?
 

Dave,

Any noticable difference in the performance after the new chain was put in?

Chuck

In my case, I have always changed the whole sprocket, tensioner as well as the guide along with my timing chain, no point in just changing the chain alone, the sprockets get equal amount of wear. The maximum life I have had out of a chain is 120,000Km. To me 3 degrees of stretch is enough to warrant a change.

leathermang,
The 81-85 300SD has a 617, OM617.951 to be exact. So do the '79-'80 SD's only it's .950 The TSB that I linked to was for 602,603,606 engines, but the procedure for checking the chain stretch on the earlier engines is the same. Line up the marks on the camshaft sprocket and camshaft bearing cap and read off the numbers on the crank damper pulley. Can it be any simpler?

The chains can and do break themselves when worn or defective, which is what caused Mercedes to issue the TSB in 11/95 due to reports of chain failure in some '92-'95 diesel engines. They found a small amount of defective chains had been installed at the factory (that self destruct) due to poor quality control, so they decided to replace any of the '92-'95 engines that chains wore to 3+ degrees under 50,000 miles.

To find out the condition of the chain,
Don't just look at it, don't take it off the engine and compare it with a new chain and don't guess. You should MEASURE IT

gsxr,
As to your friends engine, did you ever consider the pointer being possibly moved? It is a common source of error after replacing the chain, another being sprocket wear. I know the OM61x's were less advanced than the OM60x's but sloppy, come on! Was this the only OM617 you changed the timing chain on?

Certainly you can change the chain when ever you want on " principle" but if it's not worn (4 degrees OM60x or 5 degrees OM61x) there is no real reason to.


Chris

Sounds like Chris and I are on the same page. I do have the Om617 manual in printed form as well as microfiche. A law course I once took taught me two things. Read the whole article and don't take anything out of context. The OM617 manual says to check valve timing if there are complaints after valve work. The specs are 11.5 degrees with new chain and 13.5 with chain that has been in service over 20,000k. Service procedure 05-215 says that late timing can be adjusted with offset keys if elongated chain hasn't reached maximum specs. If passed specs, chain must be replaced. So I would assme that if Mb gave valve timing specs with a new chain and a chain that has been in service, those are the specs. As to the 10 degree key, the manual also states that the key can be reversed to subtract from an 18 degrees advance of the gear. Apparently MB is conservitive with two degrees, so I would have no problem with five degrees. Also MB has only three instructions for resurfacing a head. #1 resurface to specs. #2 check valve seat depth. #3 check valve timing per procedure 05-215.

Peter

I tend to follow a philosophy of, "if it's not broken don't fix it." Unfortunately for a timing chain this would be welcoming a catastrophe. I checked my timing chain for stretch a few thousand miles ago, I'm at a little over 226K on my 300D right now, and I had zero stretch. My car always had 3K mile oil changes, maybe that had something to do with it.

Chuck - there was a slight improvement in performance/noise/MPG but it may have been more placebo than anything. Not a huge difference. If your IP timing is off (due to the chain stretch) and that is corrected at the same time, you may notice a larger improvement. I got a measureable MPG increase with the IP timing set to the advanced side of spec.

Chris - on my 603, the pointer is perfect, because I set it with a dial gauge while the head was off! ;) The 603 pointer only adjusts over a 3 degree range total, btw. On the 617, I do not know for sure. However the 617 pointer is not something that looks like it would be moved, adjusted, or knocked accidentally (unlike the 603 where you can accidentally loosen the bolt while changing the water pump - don't ask how I know.) I also don't know the range of 617 pointer adjustment. HOWEVER, there have been others who rolled in a new chain and saw a significant amount of "stretch" with a new chain. Someone on this forum reported, IIRC, 4 degrees after rolling in a new chain, much to his dismay. I agree this is another possible source for error but don't have enough data to state the probability or magnitude. And I do agree that replacing the 60x chain before it reaches the limit is probably not necessary. I don't entirely agree with that on the 61x anymore after reading more than one anecdote of unprovoked chain failures that had not reached the 10 degree limit.

YMMV, etc...

:cool:

The gears (sprockets) and guides do not normally wear much on M-B diesels (if maintenance is kept up in accordance with the manual) and are usually not replaced until the engine is torn down and rebuilt(which shouldn't happen until 500+kmi with proper care), sure check them but it's rare for them to need replacing. The tensioner usually lasts longer then the chain(replacing it with the chain is a usual practice though). Timing chains can last anywhere from 250 to 500+kmi's depending on maintenance. OM60x's chains wear less then 61x's though the 61x's can tolerate more wear. Using synthetic oil is reported to cut chain wear in half or more among it's many other benefits.

gsxr,

10 degrees is NOT the wear limit for the OM61x engines, just the chain isn't likely to break until 7-10+ degrees. If and when stretch gets that high the chain needs to be replaced NOW not tomorrow! Recommended replacement is at around 5 degrees on the OM61x's. If putting on a new chain doesn't put the timing back at "0" and if nothing is found seriously worn, you can use a offset key to correct this. Some wouldn't bother if it was only off 3-4 degrees due to the fact that small changes in timing are not terribly critical on a diesel and usually anything between 0-3 degrees can be considered like new or unworn. This is the only situation where an offset key should be used.


Chris

Peter, GOOD! I see that YOU do have a 617 tubo manual.... as compared to Chris....

I take it that we are now past the " offset key is only for correction due to machining of the head " ?

Clearly the fact that they suggest checking elongation at a certain number of miles... means that they do not think there is going to be big movement of the head /head gasket or such.... so that what they are looking for is to keep tabs on CHAIN ELONGATION... right ?

"says to check valve timing if there are complaints after valve work" That is close.... but it says to check the valve timing using the position of the number one valve IF THERE ARE ANY PERFORMANCE COMPLAINTS..... not just after valve work.... one would certainly want to set everything to specs after something as major as valve works...but that is just part of getting the engine back into service....

NO it is NOT
 

Chris, "but the procedure for checking the chain stretch on the earlier engines is the same. Line up the marks on the camshaft sprocket and camshaft bearing cap and read off the numbers on the crank damper pulley. Can it be any simpler?"

No, the MB factory shop manual specifically requires using the position of the number one valve traveling a certain distance for checking ANY PERFORMANCE COMPLAINTS..... and such notables as Steve Brotherton, moderator and MB mechanic have settled this for most people in other threads....
And it was not too long ago that this happened....

Chris, ADMIT you have NO turbo 617 MB FACTORY SHOP MANUAL !!!
This will help others understand why you are avoiding logic and quoting the manual in your posts....

leathermang,

I am talking about checking the chain stretch on a used chain (which is what this thread was started about) NOT setting timing precisely on a new or nearly new chain(which is what the manual IS talking about). If you have a new chain and timing is still way off (and again if nothing is found worn) you can get out the dial gauge and offset keys to precisely check and correct it per the manuals instruction. It makes no sense on a used chain as when you will begin to notice performance changes the chain will need replacement(everything else being in order, pump timing ect.). Diesel engines are not as sensitive to valve timing being slightly (1-2 degrees) off like gasoline engines, where valve timing makes a BIG difference in performance.

Over the useful life of a diesel chain (about 5 degrees of stretch on the OM61x engines), there is little to be gained by using an offset key and beyond about 5 degrees of stretch the chain is worn beyond it's safe limit and should be replaced. I'm not saying that you or the manual is wrong or you shouldn't ever make it right, just that there are only certain times you need to be so precise. Production tolerances (not a problem on M-B diesels in nearly 30 years, was common on OM621 or 636 engines though) and when rebuilding an engine (to correct for the head being shaved and other factors) are the major reasons for using offset keys, NOT to correct timing error due to chain wear.

Chris

Chris, you should tell the folks in Stuttgart about your theory on the use of the offset keys. They have the reputation of taking things too seriously sometimes and as such could benefit from a good laugh too. I know I have!:D :D :D :D :D

I've read the sections in both books, offset keys can be used for BOTH procedures. The books state to replace the chain when stretch is "excessive" but does not define "excessive"...

Yes, it does define ' excessive'....it says replace the chain when the offset keys will no longer bring the engine back to specs...

Thanks Pete..... Chris does not have, and has not read the Factory shop manual for a 617 turbo engine.... thus we will have to cut him some slack.... but not more than 10 degrees measured at his crank..... LOL

Chris, We ARE talking about the same thing...
you are simply making up stuff which is directly contradicted by the instructions in the manual... both specific and implied.

Greg...
 

12 posts in this thread and you accuse me of OCD? You kill me.

YOU know what I am saying is true....
So since they keep saying things directly contradicted by the MB manual... why would you accuse me of OCD.... but not them ?
And I don't care what they choose to do to THEIR cars... my obligation is not to let stand (without a good fight) something which some newbie might believe....

You seem resentful about other's decisions....and compelled to make them 'see the light.'

How does it feel to you when they don't listen?

Dr. Phil time?

I gave up the fight on those marks long ago...other fish to fry, or vibrate as it were. Haw!

I too thought it was settled when Steve Brotherton spoke up about it... but guess it wasn't....