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PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/)
-   Diesel Performance Tuning (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-performance-tuning/)
-   -   Steam injection pre turbo (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-performance-tuning/220552-steam-injection-pre-turbo.html)

Deni 04-30-2008 05:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedInduction (Post 1840197)
If you are going to have a 100psi pump and atomizing nozzle, don't even bother trying to put it pre-turbo.
May I as why do you think so?

Fi, you're a little bit vague for me sometimes.

MTUpower 04-30-2008 09:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deni;
May I as why do you think so?

Fi, you're a little bit vague for me sometimes.
Read this it's all about pre turbo injection. a 25 page thread.

babymog 04-30-2008 11:08 PM
Lets throw a curve in here, what about water injection in the exhaust stream pre-turbo to provide extra pressure/boost at low power or to spool the turbo faster?

The turbine blades are much more durable than the compressor blades also.

turbobenz 05-01-2008 05:09 AM
steam wont work because its the water droplets turning into gas (steam) in the heated air that absorbs energy (it takes energy to change states of matter), thus cooling the intake charge.

ForcedInduction 05-01-2008 07:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deni (Post 1840375)
May I as why do you think so?

Fi, you're a little bit vague for me sometimes.
Because you are already doing all the work (switch, 100psi pump, nozzle, etc). The only thing you have to do is mount it in the intake or compressor housing.

Quote:
Lets throw a curve in here, what about water injection in the exhaust stream pre-turbo...
The turbine blades are much more durable than the compressor blades also.
Iron and steel also rust much better than aluminum.

MTUpower 05-01-2008 08:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbobenz;
steam wont work because its the water droplets turning into gas (steam) in the heated air that absorbs energy (it takes energy to change states of matter), thus cooling the intake charge.
This is really the crux of the matter that everyone seems to miss....

Is steam still steam in colder air? For how long? Steam is obviously hot.... but when you take a home cleaning style hand held steamer
 and have steam come out the nozzle- in about four inches IT IS NOT HOT. Since steam is hot, I'm assuming it's no longer steam. Therefore using a hand held steamer to generate steam which is then no longer steam is really just a device to make very very small water droplets.

Something that otherwise takes a very high psi pump and specific nozzles. Normal post IC systems will not do this, and FI is correct in saying it will cause issues with the turbo. I am not talking about a normal post IC system and putting it in front of the turbo. If you want to talk about that make another thread. I'm not talking about normal post IC WI, make another thread. If you want to talk about post exhaust WI, make another thread. Let's get to the bottom of what I am talking about and then move forward from there.

babymog 05-01-2008 10:05 AM
Steam is hot water vapor. Clouds are similar to steam. It will condense if allowed to, but the water vapor is what you have.

The conversion from water liquid to water vapor/gas takes energy, and expands roughly 1,600times. Water vapor also adds to the thermal mass of the intake air and can transfer more heat energy in or out.

babymog 05-01-2008 10:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedInduction (Post 1840803)
Iron and steel also rust much better than aluminum.
True, but at ~900F and with high-velocity hydrocarbons/acids/carbon solids hitting the wheel, I don't think rust is a problem. Plus, put aluminum alloys next to cast iron in a salt-spray environment, and you'll see the aluminum alloy become the sacrificial anode.

I'm just curious about the possible performance benefits, I have spare turbos to play with.

ForcedInduction 05-01-2008 04:24 PM
Give it a try.

Icefire 05-01-2008 04:34 PM
Sorry if this is to far after the fact, POWER IS POWER,(P=VI) 600 Watt steamer will require 50 AMPS at 12V to run, so you are overtaxing your alternator for this, if you intend to run it for longer than a pass down the track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTUpower (Post 1836529)
It would help the cylinders run cooler- and I think perhaps I'd get a bit less smoke out the tail pipe, which are two good things in my view. The 110 volt steamer (600watts) would take little power from the engine, as it would tax the battery and alt a bit, but certainly not much. WI helps keep the cylinders free of carbon build up also IIRC. There's three things. My real question is the effectiveness of steam. Yes, the cooling of the intake air comes from the water to gas transformation; and thus the conventional wisdom says you cannot get that energy back to cool the air. However, the steam is really no longer steam less than 6 inches from the nozzle, so I fail to see how this applies. Try it- home steamers are just water soakers 4-6 inches from the point of exit. Pre turbo amounts of WI are much less than the post turbo amounts needed for the same effects also. I view it as an overall safety feature if you are running more than stock amounts of fuel, air, and other combustion gases- propane, methanol or alcohol.

MTUpower 05-01-2008 09:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icefire;
Sorry if this is to far after the fact, POWER IS POWER,(P=VI) 600 Watt steamer will require 50 AMPS at 12V to run, so you are overtaxing your alternator for this, if you intend to run it for longer than a pass down the track.
I don't think a 115 amp alternator is taxed too much by 50 amps... is it? ;)

ForcedInduction 05-02-2008 06:14 AM
Depends on the RPM.

turbobenz 05-02-2008 06:19 AM
use heat from the exhaust manifold to generate steam

GREASY_BEAST 05-02-2008 08:13 PM
what about a heat exchanger loop wrapped around the exhaust manifold, the downpipe, or wherever, and a regular old WI system (shurflo pump, nozzle, solenoid, etc) that injects HOT water pre-turbo? The "superheated", high pressure water (T>100C) will flash to vapor as soon as it leaves the nozzle due to the pressure drop. You the run the watery mix through the turbo, through the intercooler (yes some will condense, deal with it appropriately), and into the engine...

EDIT: My vote is still for a "IDI" water injection system where the glowplugs are replaced with injectors (like those found on your average FI gasser) and supplied with high-pressure water. A crank position sensor (like the RPM sensor?) provides timing info for a little computer which times your water injection event at some point ATDC (ideally when the diesel fuel injection event has terminated).. Think it will work? It doesn't sound too expensive if using parts from a junk gasser motor...


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