Notes from the lab

[panZZer]

This will be my custom parts-etc thread, I'll try not to do stuff that has already been done before. The part Im working on first is a custom Turbodiesel 617 intake manifold.
Probably the best intake to start with is the one off the first version of the 50's thru 80's iron diesels, the first om621 intake off the 58-9 Pontoon 190d part# R6211411301, They have the best runners -they start as the same om617 D shape but open into round 1 3/8"tubes about 3"from the ports and is the intake that looks like the first 4" are siamesed.
The later 621 Pontoon intake # 6211411401 and the 220d 240d intakes all have D shaped runners all the way thru the intake and are a lot harder to run a flex stem and a flapper wheel thru to enlarge. Also the 220d 615 616 runners enter the head at around an 75 degree angle instead of almost a straight shot like the Pontoon intakes. This intake will be a add the 5th runner and weld to a plenum but theres gonna be casting for the 5th runner. It will fit under a w123 hood or on other repowering swaps. As of right now I dont know an easy method of making a core for the runner but fortunately have years and yrs of plastics tool experience and a lot of it crosses over, Im stopping by the foundry to talk to the owner tommorrow to get the answer.

[Gillig]

Originally Posted by panZZer

Probably the best intake to start with is the one off the first version of the 50's thru 80's iron diesels, the first om621 intake off the 58-9 Pontoon 190d part# R6211411301

What advantage is there to any of this when the W115 manifold is commonly available, requires no fabrication, doesn't have the multiple sharp 90* angles and has the runner length / plenum volume already tuned for the 617?

[panZZer]

Well they are not that common, --but surely more than a 58-9 pontoon, There are multiple wrong angles on the w115-- not so much on this and wait til its done before you assume things. most of the ports on the w115 enter at an ok angle but the #1,2 th runner is a disaster for airflow #5 enters the head at a worse angle than the rest, and are a choked size to begin with. I like to make things so no fabbing required is not a big plan for me, And knowing how to weld aluminum is a plus if you are a motorhead. Remember--The w115 617 intake is NOT a 617A and it wasnt made to do that, but has been used that way. The 617 and 617a are not gassers and the plenum volume is not tuned like a gasser as you may be thinking--and if it was a turbodiesel would probaly not be the same as a N/a engine. There is no air door (throlttle body) everthing on a turbodiesel of whatever kind from the compressor housing thru whatever-a intercooler and various ducting is plenum.

[panZZer]

The pattern making part of this stuff is tedious and if you dont like that kind of work casting metal is not for you.I have always been interested in metal casting. If it weren't for the oil/natural gas industry that was based in places like Houston and DFW these places would probably not still be operating here. After a 20 min tour of one of the two major foundries in DFW and absorbing every bit of info I could get one of the owners was starting to maybe think I could pull off some simple stuff. Some of the major supplies they are using are the same I've been using al along. But I will also be using stuff they havent seen done too. The first time I came here there was a WWll rolls royce merlin 12 cyl head sitting on the floor.
Im making a quickie reverse image off a pair of runners and am using some mexican air drying clay -This stuff shrinks up too much for my liking but im just getting a general shape for a runner and it'll work for that. It wouldnt be any easier to make a single so im making a pair instead. Thats the way it is with pattern work -its often little more work to do a Big part that it is to do a small tedious one.

The runners on the pontoon intake are 1 3/8 inside di round tubes and down at the port area the round shapes are pinched off to the D shape like the later 621 the 615 616 and the w115 has thruout the length of the runners.------- if the cut off D port shape side area were still round it would come out to just under 1 3/8 but with the extra material filled in reduce the size quite a good bit.

[Gillig]

Originally Posted by panZZer

Remember--The w115 617 intake is NOT a 617A and it wasnt made to do that

That is false information. Please look up the C111-IId and III and you will see why. I trust MB's engineers know far more than somebody in their garage with a saw and welder.

Recognize that manifold? MB felt it was good enough to make a continuous 230hp.


You are vastly over-thinking the intake and you'll see no measurable benefits from all your work that an additional 1psi of boost, an intercooler or water injection wouldn't outdo.

[panZZer]

Yea thats special , like I said it was made for the Na 617 and so it was used on a turbod racecar, If you are happy with one on your car great. Your tone sounds familarly snarky-What concern of yours is what car parts I make--Might you be known elsewhere by a different name?
I meant if you are happy with one on your -Oel Smokin Jalopy -----did they let you back in here -or are you hacked in anonymously?
Gotta luvv those proxy 's. which one did you use--Foxyproxy? No --You used turbohide!
That was not the only type intake ran on the car by the way -There was another.

[Gillig]

Originally Posted by panZZer

Yea thats special

Not really. The specs are available. The only significant modifications they made were to the pump, lowering compression (on the 230hp version), an alloy cylinder head for weight reduction, a different turbo and adding an intercooler.

What concern of yours is what car parts I make

I don't care what you make. My concern is that you're posing as if know what you're talking about when you are merely guessing based on visual observation of 40 year old pre-CAD parts.

Gotta luvv those proxy 's. which one did you use--Foxyproxy? No --You used turbohide!

Why should I need a proxy? This forum is public and free to everyone that follows the rules. And on that note, I'm reminded of a rule you've broken in that last post.
"2. Trolling is not permitted. Trolling is defined as an inflammatory post used strictly for the purpose of irritating other members. The moderator of the respective forum will have the final determination of whether trolling was utilized for a specific post. "

[winmutt]

Coming from the guy who likes to impersonate webmasters on other sites those are quite a few words there panZZZer.

[panZZer]

No you got me all wrong--its panZZer-with 2 Z's like that little ole band. I was just listening to cheap sunglasses on the way back from Honest Johns caddy graveyard--You just gotta love how Billy plays the guitar in that one --the definition of Excellence.

Im Not trying to get my thread shut down-seems some other might be---He's got a LOT of experience arranging that---- and he needs to stop because his posts are unwanted.

Ah -if you are the wingman, Do you concur about this guys ID? Whom would be the others underling elsewhere? That seems to be unclear with guys from Germany, Finnland, New Zealand ..... from what I saw on 4btswaps, or was it diesel bombers--And thats meant as a constructive comment.

[panZZer]

The Mexican clay tric didn't get the first step done, it kept shrinking up and had to be redone, But I did get the parting flange that I can go off the other side with more stable stuff, then redo the first side. Plaster of Paris and some binder material like the straw in bricks, Horse hair maybe.

[StaggerLee]

PanZZer - Check out a hobby store for the stuff guys use for scenery on their model railroads. Hardshell something? I don't think it shrinks like plaster o paris but looks and mixes the same.

[panZZer]

Thank you for the tip, After talking more with the foundry guys it looks like my sceme of casting in a plaster mold -they will not do because -they have been there done that, and even the 5th runner alone would require many multi piece shapes to make the sand molds of. They also said other shops would probably do it but-parts never come out right from their experience. So im doing it the "regular" way and heading back to the boneyard to find suitable runner material---I already snagged some that would work on the later 621 intake with the d ports---off the other bimmer cars with the efi inline 6 cyl, No 1 runner works with a little work and i might sell that intake and 5th runner to anyone else thinking of an intake like this--with a lateral flow A/W intercooler.
Now I need to find some the right radius that will end up as 1 1/2 tubes when this particular intake is done---Those early pontoon intakes are HARD to find.

Iits very easy to get set bends in aluminum tubing -But very hard to get continuous bent radius's.
looks like all the promising stuff is japaneezzium. the 240sx has some the right curve and last a 16 valve nissan bottom section either #1 or 4 runners and these are 1 1/2. The port stub off a N'a 300d intake is the d shape and tranzing to the bigger round tube is just a matter of getting it located in the most advantagous spot and filling the step area's with aluminum weld and break out the die grinders and smooth the tranzition.
As far as this guine pig engine there will be a Reel expensive injection pump,the intake tract will be approx 1 1/2" from the plenum to the backs of the valves. The exhaust side will be opend up too and run out to a holset BFT, or if they arrive one of the new smaller ones ala 4.5, but Im sure the vgt controller on those will be a pc board/removable eeprom like the 07 up dodges have.