Turboing OM616, technical questions
 

Hi, to all.

I am thinkig about turboing 240D, and i have few questions about it.

1. oil to feed turbo.

solution
http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-gv...0/DSCN3639.JPG

This is solution from member Graminal95,
what do yout think about it, what restriciton should be made, so that the oil pressure don't drop too much, but there would be enough oil for lubrication.

In europe there is not easy to find back plate of oil housing for 300DT.
There is option for drilling original back plate, maybe it is better solution?
here is picture of back oil plate
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/299/oilplate.jpg

2. Oil cooler

would it be good souliton if oil from turbo, goes through some kind of cooler, that have horizontal lines, so that there would be no, or very low flow restriction.

what about adding original oil cooler from 300D, is it possible to drill holes in front of oil filter housing, and put oil cooler?

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/atta...00542052pm.jpg

3. safe limit of EGT?
i guess that the safe limit whould be about 1000F.


Thanks a lot.
If you have any other suggestion please write, thanks!

anyone?

There should be a restricted oriface right at the turbo, look at your turbo where the oil goes, and you will see only a tiny hole for the oil to go in. No need to restrict it anywhere else.

I think the metal on the back plate of a non turbo engine may be a bit thin to allow drilling and tapping for an oil line. You may need to weld a bung on it.

I don't see any need to cool the return from the turbo. Although you may want to change the oil cooler for one from a 300. So far I have not. Perhaps put a oil temp gauge on, this would be in the oil pan.

1000F seems good. 47 dodge has it right. You need todrain the oil in the most vertical route possible to the oil pan.

Ed

thanks for reply!

yes there is a restriction on turbine, but we will se if that is enough, so my oil pressure dont drop too much.

On EU models, only om617 have oil cooler, 615 and 616 doesn't have it.
I will have to see will it work without it.

i will install oil temp gauge and watch for temperature, for mineral oil I will try not to pass 240F.

Thanks, any suggestions are welcome!

My oil pressure is staying 20-25 psi at idle. And I do also have a bypass filter taking a little extra oil.

Generally 1250, continous, 1500 for short times is considered ok, but without piston oil squirters, lower would be wise. Right now mine will not go above 1000 with my current ip tune. It only made it this high pulling a trailer. normal driving about 850 is about as high as it will get when going uphill.

Ok, then it is time to run some big modification and test it.
I hope that nothing will go wrong, but we will see.
Thanks!

Is there a way to add the little vacuum thing on the IP to increase fuel when the turbo is on boost, like the OEM turbo models? I've thought that adding a turbo to a 240 would be a good idea, I just never looked into this aspect. I've driven a 240 with a turbo but it was air only, and the power difference was hardly noticeable. How do you get the extra fuel in?

Kevin

Yes you can change the thing on top to one from a turbo charged 617. This is the Alda. I did not bother with adding an alda.

However you still need to have the ip(injection pump) recalibrated for more fuel to see any real gain from a turbo.

what type of diesel injectors do you use on OM616?
are there any benefits from using one from OM617 Turbo

I am getting prices for a higher flowing nozzle than the ones that are currently use on MBs, from both Bosio and Monark.

As soon as the prices come in I will be putting in an order for my 616turbo and 617aturbo.

A higher flowing nozzle will help to reduce the injection time allowing more fuel to be delivered while staying with in EGT limits. If you really want to go for it, a 10mm IP will get you to the top of the class.

is there any good if i use bigger injector nozzle than standard.

let say that the original is (bosch)SD 240, what wolud be if i put SD 265
that is used in w124 300DT or in w140 350 DT

I did use injectors from a 617a, and the pre chambers too.

I thought I would document the effort to put 617a piston cooling Squirters in a 616 for a turbo build.

I questioned if there was enough wall thickness in the block to tolerate the invasive modification, but after seeing a video of someone else doing it, I an not as concerned lol. I am still going to check the thickness after machining to know where it is at. I am using a junk block as a test. Not pleased with how the cutter performed... I'm going to try a different type of insert and see if it is any happier.

I am also going to have to make up some shims to raise the squirter up to the proper height as the distance from the bottom of the block and the base of the cylinders is greater then the distance from the bottom of the block to the squirter pads on a 617a

Great progress and Great Work !

This is awesome, please keep this thread going.

Are you making any other mods, like using 617a pistons? connecting rods, etc?

I am using 617a pistons (with modified valve pockets), rods, and 617a intake and exhaust valves. Definitely will use at least a 671 NA oil pump, but would like a little more volume so i will look at other options as well.

Going to make custom valve rockers to alter the valve timing events without making a custom cam, and put better springs in it. I am going to look at the timing device to see how much of a pain it would be to get it to come in sooner and yet still retard consistently (would help with cold starting given start of injection will be in the 19 to 20 BTDC range).

Going to build a hybrid Garret VNT/BorgWarner S series turbo (want to be able to comfortably make 40PSI of boost) and pair it with a 10mm MW pump with a modified governor feeding custom made injector nozzles which will be screwed into heavily modified prechambers. I would really like to use ARP head studs if they ever ended up with a set. lol

Goal is 200/250HP. After i am done proving out the piston squiter machining, the 616 and 617 blocks that have been taking up space for over 10 years now will be used to configure the dyno, lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CcZTrFWZGo

This will get you to 200-250HP

Would that be the DN10SD242 nozzle?

That has a 10 degree fan angle... I have read about trials of up to 12 degrees of angle in 617a engines. One of the things noticed was increased smoking at high speed from what I have read. I think they said it ran a little quieter though... Who knows..

Really need to see the flow at pintle lift numbers. I am almost ready to modify a nozzle barrel and make a new pintle and see what it looks like. I considered adding a fan angle, but my goal is to maintain a tighter gap between the pintle and the barrel at higher flow numbers to produce a finer delivery instead of a stream. It could very well turn out to be a fail, but I am sure there is something to be learned lol.

No

It’s a custom R&D nozzle. The #242 designation is not associated with a COTS item. I think I started a thread on this a long time ago to see if there was any interest in a production run. Unfortunately about zero interest

I ran this nozzle in a tired OM617 NA and at 107mph I got a little nervous and decided to quit. I had plenty of throttle (rack) left. If I take another crack at it I will get a set of tires rated for higher speeds. My differential was 2:65 LSD from a W116 450SEL 6.9 which is sitting on my garage floor.

I mean this is so far beyond what I'm technically capable of it sounds magical.
I couldn't imagine machining a piston with anything remotely resembling the tools and machines I currently own.

I'm considering whether I'd like to rebuild a 616 for fun (as in, on a stand, with no determinate end date) and the thought did cross my mind to swap as many of the more robust and durable components of the 617a as possible, idea being to add a turbo. How many of these parts were plug and play, if any? Are you also machining the head to accommodate the different valves?

I recall you were originally running a turbo on an unmodded 616.
Whatever happened there? And how much boost?

Is this something you made or had made to your specks? I tried the link but it was no good.

Will it flow 3X the fuel as a 315 and still have the pintle in throttling range? My ultimate plan is to build a super MW with 12mm or 14mm elements. The goal is not so much quantity but speed of delivery and delivery quality. Even with turned up 10mm elements the there can be over twice the volume of fuel delivered with the same pulse width so the nozzle will have to be able to flow the surge while maintaining the pintle in the throttling zone and not be pushed up to where there is just an empty hole.

My first test will be opening up the hole to .070 inches and make a either a multi angle pintle or single angle pintle (I will probibly do both). Then Flow test at 2000 psi at different pintle lift settings next to a 315 with the same pintle lift to compare volume and patterns. I want to see what I can do with minimal pintle lift.

Essentially I want to max out a 10mm element (or bigger) and maintain the same pintle lift that a bone stock, straight from the factory 240D had at full throttle. I have no idea if that can be done or if that is even a good idea lol

That engine was very tired before I put the turbo on it. It had a bad exhaust valve that you could hear leaking lol.. It did run good before the head gasket gave up, at last that is what I am guessing is the problem from the way it sounds when I crank it and it was eating coolant.

I had it limited to 20/25 PSI at full power (5.5mm elements maxed out). Those prechambers were just drilled bigger, cam was advanced, and the start of injection was around 16 degrees if I recall.

It really ran well and revved quick. It was fun to drive. I am looking forward to getting that car back on the road again.

There are some plug and play parts.. the valves and guides are interchangeable. The rod big ends are the same but the small ends on the 617a are bigger so to run the turbo pistons you have to use the turbo rods too, but I am not sure how the turbo pistons will do without the oil cooling them. Manifolds are sorta with a little cut and welding.

The turbo prechambers are larger then the NA ones but they will work if the head is machined to accommodate them.

I think that is it off the top of my head.

25psi!

I was thinking of running something far more conservative, like 5-8psi.
Was also thinking of pre-emptively swapping head gaskets.
I know I’ll need to turn up the fuel delivery on the IP, but wondered whether I’ll also need to increase the injector pop pressures from 120 to 135.

In other words, if im looking for 25-30hp gains, what are the minimal number of mods I can make while staying as comfortably within the margins as possible?

.

#242 NOZZLES OM617.95X Engine on youtube under my old website:

dieselfuelinjector.guru.

I just tried the link and it worked fine.

I did see the video, When I looked up the website I saw the banner on top that said it had expired. I got out of it in case it was one of those malware places lol... Computers and the Internets is not my strong point lol.

If you don't have a lot of blow by and the hot oil pressure is good then there is no reason why you can't run under 10 psi all day long.

Greazzer would know more about the difference between 120 and 135, I know of people running both in hot rodded motors. My thinking is the higher pressure is better when the pump is turned up as it should help the quality of the higher quantity injection, (less smoke and lower EGTs).

My bad

I did take down my website but I’m thinking of bringing it back instead of trolling the MB hobbyist websites for PMs, et cet

Mark, opinion on the subject?

Here’s a horrible opinion

Trial & Error

Remember that injectors do not pop at the same pressure every single time. You have that “range” which could be up to one BAR or a little more

Second, there’s an old flame war regarding balanced injectors. FSM says +/- 50 PSI which is 3+ BAR

That’s five BAR alone.

I would experiment in increments of 7 or 8 BAR

So, 115, 123, 131 assuming the above. Obviously the tighter the balance and less flutter in your pop range then slightly different but you’ll see the same pattern although different BAR settings.

On the practical side, OEM shims are stepped .05

It has taken me years to get 3,000+ shims. Getting shims thinner would make McMaster Carr happy.

Rule of thumb is .05 = 3 BAR

That sounds perfectly reasonable.

It’ll be a build that happens in stages. A few things I need to learn along the way…

Look at my thread “Will the real Hans Gruber please stand up”

I tried to remove all engine parasitic drag: VP & water pump delete; manual steering

Modified intake and turbo air filter

If the car ends up road worthy and ok to drive I will swap in a 5 speed and 2:88 differential

Then I will pop in the #242s and see if I can brake 100 mph

Weather has stopped my project, either too cold or it’s raining

“Will the real Hans Gruber please stand up” –Great thread

OM616 –meant to ask, what are you using for intake/exhaust manifolds?

Were you able to determine how much metal remains after you machined that shoulder to accommodate the squirter? Also, is there a way to replicate your results easily since this appears to be the major missing piece when it comes to turbo-ing an OM616. I do not see a way to easily do an oil pump mod. An external sump pump like the 6.9 would be possible, but those costs are insane and the gains are about zero. Rather, trying to use current OM parts, although from different models, seems the easiest way to go.

The new cutter inserts came in Saturday along with some short drills I need to get in under a couple of the mains but one of the drills was labeled wrong and was too small diameter. I kind of want to finish this cylinder and make sure the dimensions are still good before I move on to the 3rd cylinder (which which requires the most material removed and is the one I am most concerned about wall thickness). The correct drill is coming in Tuesday. Once I have confirmed this cylinder is good, I will cut the 3rd one and see how the new inserts do and how much wall is left.

I still have to make shim plates to lift the squirter up and I am considering machining pins into the plate that plug into the block and leave the squirter pins alone as they will plug into the plates. As machined, the current pads are .100 to .120 inches lower then the 617a squireter pads.

Once I am confident that I nothing needs to be tweaked I can send you a drawing. All feature dimensions are referenced from the center of each cylinder and the bottom of the block. A custom cutter will have to be made to allow removal of metal below the main bosses. Also the lower right hand holes (for the hold down bolt and a dowel pin) are just about below the main. Even with a ER11 holder I still need a screw machine drill to get low enough to get the holder nut under the main boss on some of the cylinders.

Regarding the oil pump, I have not looked at that yet, but what I want to see is how much room there is between the pan and the pick up. As I recall the pick up just about sits on the bottom of the pan. A common practice to increase volume with OEM pumps when upgrades are not available is to make a spacer to put between the pump body halves and install longer rotors. I want to see if I can put the driven rotor of a 617a pump in a 617NA pump housing and EDM the bottom off of the 617a drive rotor and put that under the 617NA drive rotor making a 617NA pump with the same size rotors as the 617a pump. Then I would make a support collar to reinforce the end of the drive shaft. That is on the list to look at.

A good machine shop would be able to machine up the block.

Oh wow. Impressive

Right now it’s incredibly cold outside or I would be rummaging in my crawl space for some extra squirters to send you.

I’m about one day’s worth of wrenching away from having a fully functioning cooling system, air intake, and charging system done. At that point its brakes and some sheet metal for the floors

I’ll track down some extra cores to build a set with the #242s.

If you can figure out some marketing ideas I’m game for a production run of 500 nozzles (#242s)

It is miserable cold here too. I have a bag of squirters that I have acquired over the past few years, more then I need, but I appreciate the thought :)

You are going to need some though ;)

Sounds like you are really close!

I have a dumb thought-
If wall thickness is the limiting factor, would it be possible to mount slightly elsewhere which would require a “shim” to serve as a super thick gasket. Something tells me wall thickness is variable in the casting. The hole bore is probably pretty small compared to the mounting bolts or pins.

Not dumb at all. My plan B is to make a banjo type squieter that only requires a bore large enough for the ring, and it could even be installed at an angle so it wouldn't require boring into the side of the block. I have seen some MB squirters from some other engine that probibly could be made to work.

The block looks like they had "banks" of cores, one for each cylinder, that they stacked up next to each other. The #3 cylinder has a very large wall offset that will require the most material to be removed and is where i am concerned about the finished thickness.

The correct drill bit came in and I finished the #2 cylinder pad and it looks good. The next step is to put a 617a piston in the holes and varifiy the spigot fits into the piston properly.

With the second pad done, I thought I might as well ruff in the 3rd and check the wall thickness. I found that the thrust bearing main requires a smaller diameter shank on the cutter so I could not finish the inner features, but I was able to cut the side wall portion of the pocket.

The outside of the block in that area is very pocketed with some stud bosses and pockets under the oil gallery and there is one area, a corner really, that is the thinnest and that measured out in the .150 to .165 inch range. Sitting here thinking about it I did not check to see what the stud boss was for... could be a motor mount or accessory. Personally I am comfortable with that wall thickness in that area.

One pic is of the second pad and the other is of #1 and #2 installed.

I also took apart the 617a oil pump and removed the rotors. I need to get a 617NA pump to see what I can do with it.

Great progress!

Half way done !

Also meant to ask you, what are you doing for nozzles these days?
Seems like monark, bosio, even Firad are NLA.

All I can find are bosch (likely, india) and ali-express style knockoffs.

Right now,

I am reselling good, used German nozzles for either $5 or $10 each with my service. I am probably down to my last 50 or so. This is all I have after doing injectors for the last 10 years, which means checking out 1,000s of nozzles ...

OR --

Folks are buying German branded nozzles but are paying horrible shipping prices.

Just as a heads up -- there are some knock-off "Monarks" floating out there, which can be ID by the large "GERMANY" etched in the shoulder of the nozzle.

Where are these coming from? I'm in Austria, about a four hour drive from Germany.

They are on German e B a y

I have been trying to find the part number for the 617.912 oil pump (which I believe is a little higher volume then the 616 pump), but all I keep finding are turbo pumps or pumps listed for 616/617 and don't show the actual part number.

Suquirter pads are done and wall thickness is comparable to the 617a block so I am not worried at all.

I modeled up the spacer plate and need to make those next, then I will put a piston and crank in it and make sure everything lines up properly.

This turned out to be more of a task then I expected. I had to change my tooling strategy when I did #2 because the thrust bearing features made the main casting much bigger and caused problems with my approach. I would not be surprised if a "regular" machine shop would want to take this on because of the custom tooling and risks involved. A performance engine shop would be best because they understand what is critical and can make decisions with some confidence as they go.