How professional mechanics figure their labor time

[willrev]

I have been amazed lately at the difference in how paid mechanics figure their labor time. Many are using one of several computer programs that estimate the time on each job. That is multiplied by their hourly rate. I know two indys who use computer programs by auto service companies to do this. They charge that amount regardless (even if it takes less time). They have almost gotten as bad as the doctors and health insurance companies raping the American public by charging outrageous amounts.

Yesterday I went to the Mercedes dealer. I have gotten to know my service advisor pretty well and have personally met the mechanic there who works on the older cars. She and he both said they do not use a computer program. The mechanic tells the service advisor how long the job will take.

The dealership mechanic said 3 hours to change out my differential. Two indy mechanics both said 9 hours labor. The dealer is $85 per hour. The indy's are both $75 per hour. GO FIGURE!

[nhdoc]

The so-called "book time" is typical of how mechanics estimate the labor cost of jobs. The dealer can probably better estimate the actual time because:

1) they do the same jobs over and over on the same models unlike the indys who work on different brands and models.

2) because of 1) they can do the same job in less time than an indy who has a learning curve to climb.

3) The dealership may have special tools which reduce the time to perform tasks.

Still, I don't know of any dealerships who do what yours does in charging actual time so you are lucky to have them.

The biggest scam in book-time is when you have two jobs which "overlap" then they usually just add up the hours. For example, if you had a certain car which needed a new timing belt and water pump the book may say each is a 6 hour job but both could be done in 7 hours because 90% of the work needed to do one is needed to do the other. Unscrupulous mechanics will charge you 12 hours and do it in 7 (or 4 if they know what they are doing).

In short, ask the question "do you charge labor based on book or actual time". The best answer would be "I estimate based upon book time but charge whichever is less" .

[stayalert]

prolly based on a healthy mix of experience, recent memories (I got hosed yesterday - gotta make up for it today) voodoo, black art, darts throwing , and boat size assessment. Having said all that. A tip of the hat to mechanics, I can't imagine the stuff that they have to put up with. Pesonally I only subject them to the worst I can come up with - when all else fails bring in the pro(s)....The only time I've been to a mechanic in ~10 years was to take my VW to Maine for a timing belt change (I wimped out and wanted a crash course in VW diesels) . If you need VW diesel work seek HERM in maine (search for him @tdiclub.com) I did the work with him and it was like being an apprentice (Not the stupid TV show) he taught me a tremendous amount and saved me alot of $....Your mileage may vary.

[dannym]

Hey
ALL dealership mechanics work on piece work. They get paid for the job regardless of how long it takes. That cost is transfered to the consumer.

For instance. If a mechanic is given a brake job to do and the time on job is 2 hours. If he gets it done in 1/2 hour he still gets paid for 2 hours time. If he does 3 brake jobs in 2 hours he gets paid for 6 hours.

This is what dealership mechanics have told me and as far as I know it's always been like that.

I have no idea how indy's work but I'm sure it's not much different.

Danny

EDIT: these times are exagerated to make the point. They do try to make the times as close to the actuall time it should take.

[boneheaddoctor]

They do book rates becasue every so often you have a bolt that breaks off.....or strips out....and where when everything works fine they do it in less time...there is those cases that may take 2-3 times as long due to no fault of theirs. Of course they would still have to meet their extimate on labor.

I think if you paid solely by the hour you would end up paying more in many cases as what motivation do they have to work their butts off for effectively less money. THere is no incentive to be productive.

Of course I do my own work becasue I trust my own work better than all but a couple mechanics locay. Of Course their are more excellant mechanics around....Like Gilly, WHunter and a few others...But none are local to me.

[Habanero]

My brother (and my dad when he was still in the business) both use(d) the Chilton labor rates as guides for major jobs, but had flat rates for routine procedures (oil changes, tune-ups, etc.). It would be very difficult to just figure things by the hour, since they both work in a small town quite a ways from the parts houses. Thus they would end up waiting at least a little while if they needed a part they hadn't planned on needing. In the time they were waiting, they may do 2 or 3 oil changes, tire fixes, etc. and then to go back and try to decide exactly how much time was spent working on the first job would be insane.

Usually the labor rate guides were pretty close to actual time needed. Some jobs they may be able to complete a little quicker, but as the good doctor mentioned you always have a few jobs that for one reason or another end up taking twice as long as the labor rate allows. So it all works out in the end.

Flat rate pricing is an age old method of pricing auto service work.

It seems to bother you that you are paying more than the actual time it took the tech to do the job, but have you stopped to think that in the case that it takes LONGER than the flat rate, you STILL only pay the flat rate price?

Would you prefer to be charged the actual amount of time taken by the tech on every operation? If you did, there would be no incentive for the tech to do it in a timely manner. There are some techs who, just because of their personal attitude would knock it out quickly no matter how they were paid, but many techs would be taking a few extra coffee breaks on your bill if there were no flat rate system.

There are some mature shops that pay their techs a salary, but even then they charge according to flat rate to protect their customers. It's the best system that they have come up with in the last 100 years or so.

Have a great day,

[tangofox007]

Originally Posted by LarryBible

It seems to bother you that you are paying more than the actual time it took the tech to do the job, but have you stopped to think that in the case that it takes LONGER than the flat rate, you STILL only pay the flat rate price?

It seems that every job that I do takes longer that expected!!! There is almost always some unexpected glitch, complication or side effect. So the flat rate gets my vote. However, if the shop wants to be completely fair to the customer, they can charge actual time not to exceed book time. That takes care of those overlapping jobs, too.

[aklim]

Originally Posted by tangofox007

It seems that every job that I do takes longer that expected!!! There is almost always some unexpected glitch, complication or side effect. So the flat rate gets my vote. However, if the shop wants to be completely fair to the customer, they can charge actual time not to exceed book time. That takes care of those overlapping jobs, too.

I think the shop needs to be fair to itself too. The book time is based on the AVERAGE mechanic who does the job. Now, what if you got a newbie that took 6 hrs instead of 4 that the average does? You want him to eat the loss, right? When he he does it in 2 because he bought expensive tools and had experience you want to be charge for only 2 when the average cost is 4. Sounds like you want it all and you want it now. You can't have it both ways.

Now, if they are doing an AC recharge and a fan belt replacement, that should be 2 seperate items. But if they are doing a Water Pump and a belt, that should be the charge for a water pump only, assuming a serpentine belt.

[boneheaddoctor]

Originally Posted by tangofox007

It seems that every job that I do takes longer that expected!!! There is almost always some unexpected glitch, complication or side effect. So the flat rate gets my vote. However, if the shop wants to be completely fair to the customer, they can charge actual time not to exceed book time. That takes care of those overlapping jobs, too.

That puts the shop on the loosing end when you encounter major problems on an older car........

[tangofox007]

Originally Posted by aklim

Sounds like you want it all and you want it now. You can't have it both ways.

I had absolutely no idea that I said that! I would certainly like to see everyone treated fairly. I would like to see people pay for what they get; I also would like them to get what they pay for. From a shop's perspective, treating their customers fairly should be their top priority. Any other approach is short-sighted.
Actually, you can have it both ways. There are shops that operate exactly as I described. They don't expect the customer to pay for their lack of competence.

[bjcsc]

Everyone always beats on the mechanics for the labor rates, but the shop is who you're really after. A good friend of mine works as a Service Advisor for a major dealership here in Charleston. Her pay is 100% commission on the service she sells with no base pay. Apparently this is common practice!

As far as shop labor rates go, I like to apply them to my work (all DIY except major things) because it seems like I'm saving even more money

[boneheaddoctor]

Well if you want to complain about paying book rate for work.....would you complain about having extimates increace to cover extra work that was found when corroded bolts brake....threads come out with bolts etc...? And your bill suddenly tripples? If you pay by the hour that would happen.

If its book rate then the shop buys that time.

If you want to know what the job costs up front be prepared to pay the book rate.....

[aklim]

Originally Posted by tangofox007

I had absolutely no idea that I said that! I would certainly like to see everyone treated fairly. I would like to see people pay for what they get; I also would like them to get what they pay for. From a shop's perspective, treating their customers fairly should be their top priority. Any other approach is short-sighted.
Actually, you can have it both ways. There are shops that operate exactly as I described. They don't expect the customer to pay for their lack of competence.

Sure you did. You said: they can charge actual time not to exceed book time. If they work faster, you want to save. If they encounter problems you want to limit your cost to book time. IOW, if you do it faster, I save. You encounter unforseen problems that the book time doesn't consider, you eat the loss. Would you do that for your livelihood if you were highly skilled and competent? I wouldn't.

So what's my incentive to work harder and improve my skills? What makes me want to finish my work ASAP instead of dragging it out to shop time? I have done jobs in 2 hrs that would be done in 30 mins IF I had the right tool. Also, with my fashoning tools to compensate for the ones I don't have increases risk of injury or breaking stuff. Tools cost money. If I were to do a job once, I wouldn't buy that special tool. However, if I do a job many times and I want to have speed, I will buy the right tool.

I wouldn't go to those shops you described. IMO, mechanics are given the incentive to be better by working harder, smarter and getting better tools because they want to beat shop time. When the car comes back, they have to do it all again at their own expense. My friend makes about 80 hrs a week working 40. He gets 1 hr for diagnostic work which if he does in 15 mins, he makes money. If he is incompetent, he has to work for 1 hr and breaks even, if he is totally clueless he works till he gets it right and gets paid 1 hr. That I can trust more than a mechanic that does it on a time and material basis. Now, an exception to that is in the performance area when they install say an unknown manifold and they ahve to fabricate stuff.

A shop has to treat EVERYONE fairly and not just the customers or it doesn't work right. If you treat the customer fairly but don't pay the techs well, do you have any idea what will happen? The good ones leave for other places that pay better and you get the remainder working there. Just like a union situation, if I a good and I know I can get more working across the street, I'll be there till I can get across the street. If I am so-so, I guess it is a push. If I am incompetent, I'll stay there because I know I have some security that a non-union shop won't offer

[boneheaddoctor]

Originally Posted by aklim

Sure you did. If they work faster, you want to save. If they encounter problems you want to limit your cost to book time. IOW, do it faster, I save. You encounter unforseen problems, you eat the loss.

So what's my incentive to work harder and improve my skills? What makes me want to finish my work ASAP instead of dragging it out to shop time? I have done jobs in 2 hrs that would be done in 30 mins IF I had the right tool. Also, with my fashoning tools to compensate for the ones I don't have increases risk of injury or breaking stuff. Tools cost money. If I were to do a job once, I wouldn't buy that special tool. However, if I do a job many times and I want to have speed, I will buy the right tool.

I wouldn't go to those shops you described. IMO, mechanics are given the incentive to be better by working harder, smarter and getting better tools because they want to beat shop time. When the car comes back, they have to do it all again at their own expense. My friend makes about 80 hrs a week working 40. He gets 1 hr for diagnostic work which if he does in 15 mins, he makes money. If he is incompetent, he has to work for 1 hr and breaks even, if he is totally clueless he works till he gets it right and gets paid 1 hr. That I can trust more than a mechanic that does it on a time and material basis. Now, an exception to that is in the performance area when they install say an unknown manifold and they ahve to fabricate stuff.

A shop has to treat EVERYONE fairly and not just the customers or it doesn't work right. If you treat the customer fairly but don't pay the techs well, do you have any idea what will happen? The good ones leave for other places that pay better and you get the remainder working there. Just like a union situation, if I a good and I know I can get more working across the street, I'll be there till I can get across the street. If I am so-so, I guess it is a push. If I am incompetent, I'll stay there because I know I have some security that a non-union shop won't offer

The Union analogy doesn't always apply.....where I work you don't get hired unless you have already know the work......we have no entry level jobs....its the Non-union people who have the idiots working there as they have so little job security the good ones leave for other places....I frequently have to fix problems the non-union people screw up.....and Union or not we do get rid of the poeple who can't or won't do their job. I've seen it happen, several times....Thats how the job I have came availible before I got hired. And there were 1,400 applicants to the job I have now. 400 of which actually had the qualifications needed. I was told this a few months after I was hired....

In my job you have to be able to do anything thats needed when its needed.....at any hour of the day or night.....and doing it alone meany s you can't bluff your way though it or get someone else to do it.

Now the teachers Union is a whole different animal.....they embody everything that is bad about a union.