How professional mechanics figure their labor time
 

I have been amazed lately at the difference in how paid mechanics figure their labor time. Many are using one of several computer programs that estimate the time on each job. That is multiplied by their hourly rate. I know two indys who use computer programs by auto service companies to do this. They charge that amount regardless (even if it takes less time). They have almost gotten as bad as the doctors and health insurance companies raping the American public by charging outrageous amounts.

Yesterday I went to the Mercedes dealer. I have gotten to know my service advisor pretty well and have personally met the mechanic there who works on the older cars. She and he both said they do not use a computer program. The mechanic tells the service advisor how long the job will take.

The dealership mechanic said 3 hours to change out my differential. Two indy mechanics both said 9 hours labor. The dealer is $85 per hour. The indy's are both $75 per hour. GO FIGURE!

The so-called "book time" is typical of how mechanics estimate the labor cost of jobs. The dealer can probably better estimate the actual time because:

1) they do the same jobs over and over on the same models unlike the indys who work on different brands and models.

2) because of 1) they can do the same job in less time than an indy who has a learning curve to climb.

3) The dealership may have special tools which reduce the time to perform tasks.

Still, I don't know of any dealerships who do what yours does in charging actual time so you are lucky to have them.

The biggest scam in book-time is when you have two jobs which "overlap" then they usually just add up the hours. For example, if you had a certain car which needed a new timing belt and water pump the book may say each is a 6 hour job but both could be done in 7 hours because 90% of the work needed to do one is needed to do the other. Unscrupulous mechanics will charge you 12 hours and do it in 7 (or 4 if they know what they are doing).

In short, ask the question "do you charge labor based on book or actual time". The best answer would be "I estimate based upon book time but charge whichever is less" .

prolly based on a healthy mix of experience, recent memories (I got hosed yesterday - gotta make up for it today) voodoo, black art, darts throwing , and boat size assessment. Having said all that. A tip of the hat to mechanics, I can't imagine the stuff that they have to put up with. Pesonally I only subject them to the worst I can come up with - when all else fails bring in the pro(s)....The only time I've been to a mechanic in ~10 years was to take my VW to Maine for a timing belt change (I wimped out and wanted a crash course in VW diesels) . If you need VW diesel work seek HERM in maine (search for him @tdiclub.com) I did the work with him and it was like being an apprentice (Not the stupid TV show) he taught me a tremendous amount and saved me alot of $....Your mileage may vary.

Hey
ALL dealership mechanics work on piece work. They get paid for the job regardless of how long it takes. That cost is transfered to the consumer.

For instance. If a mechanic is given a brake job to do and the time on job is 2 hours. If he gets it done in 1/2 hour he still gets paid for 2 hours time. If he does 3 brake jobs in 2 hours he gets paid for 6 hours.

This is what dealership mechanics have told me and as far as I know it's always been like that.

I have no idea how indy's work but I'm sure it's not much different.

Danny

EDIT: these times are exagerated to make the point. They do try to make the times as close to the actuall time it should take.

They do book rates becasue every so often you have a bolt that breaks off.....or strips out....and where when everything works fine they do it in less time...there is those cases that may take 2-3 times as long due to no fault of theirs. Of course they would still have to meet their extimate on labor.

I think if you paid solely by the hour you would end up paying more in many cases as what motivation do they have to work their butts off for effectively less money. THere is no incentive to be productive.

Of course I do my own work becasue I trust my own work better than all but a couple mechanics locay. Of Course their are more excellant mechanics around....Like Gilly, WHunter and a few others...But none are local to me.

My brother (and my dad when he was still in the business) both use(d) the Chilton labor rates as guides for major jobs, but had flat rates for routine procedures (oil changes, tune-ups, etc.). It would be very difficult to just figure things by the hour, since they both work in a small town quite a ways from the parts houses. Thus they would end up waiting at least a little while if they needed a part they hadn't planned on needing. In the time they were waiting, they may do 2 or 3 oil changes, tire fixes, etc. and then to go back and try to decide exactly how much time was spent working on the first job would be insane.

Usually the labor rate guides were pretty close to actual time needed. Some jobs they may be able to complete a little quicker, but as the good doctor mentioned you always have a few jobs that for one reason or another end up taking twice as long as the labor rate allows. So it all works out in the end.

Flat rate pricing is an age old method of pricing auto service work.

It seems to bother you that you are paying more than the actual time it took the tech to do the job, but have you stopped to think that in the case that it takes LONGER than the flat rate, you STILL only pay the flat rate price?

Would you prefer to be charged the actual amount of time taken by the tech on every operation? If you did, there would be no incentive for the tech to do it in a timely manner. There are some techs who, just because of their personal attitude would knock it out quickly no matter how they were paid, but many techs would be taking a few extra coffee breaks on your bill if there were no flat rate system.

There are some mature shops that pay their techs a salary, but even then they charge according to flat rate to protect their customers. It's the best system that they have come up with in the last 100 years or so.

Have a great day,

It seems that every job that I do takes longer that expected!!! There is almost always some unexpected glitch, complication or side effect. So the flat rate gets my vote. However, if the shop wants to be completely fair to the customer, they can charge actual time not to exceed book time. That takes care of those overlapping jobs, too.

I think the shop needs to be fair to itself too. The book time is based on the AVERAGE mechanic who does the job. Now, what if you got a newbie that took 6 hrs instead of 4 that the average does? You want him to eat the loss, right? When he he does it in 2 because he bought expensive tools and had experience you want to be charge for only 2 when the average cost is 4. Sounds like you want it all and you want it now. You can't have it both ways.

Now, if they are doing an AC recharge and a fan belt replacement, that should be 2 seperate items. But if they are doing a Water Pump and a belt, that should be the charge for a water pump only, assuming a serpentine belt.

That puts the shop on the loosing end when you encounter major problems on an older car........

I had absolutely no idea that I said that! I would certainly like to see everyone treated fairly. I would like to see people pay for what they get; I also would like them to get what they pay for. From a shop's perspective, treating their customers fairly should be their top priority. Any other approach is short-sighted.
Actually, you can have it both ways. There are shops that operate exactly as I described. They don't expect the customer to pay for their lack of competence.

Everyone always beats on the mechanics for the labor rates, but the shop is who you're really after. A good friend of mine works as a Service Advisor for a major dealership here in Charleston. Her pay is 100% commission on the service she sells with no base pay. Apparently this is common practice!

As far as shop labor rates go, I like to apply them to my work (all DIY except major things) because it seems like I'm saving even more money :D

Well if you want to complain about paying book rate for work.....would you complain about having extimates increace to cover extra work that was found when corroded bolts brake....threads come out with bolts etc...? And your bill suddenly tripples? If you pay by the hour that would happen.

If its book rate then the shop buys that time.

If you want to know what the job costs up front be prepared to pay the book rate.....

Sure you did. You said: they can charge actual time not to exceed book time. If they work faster, you want to save. If they encounter problems you want to limit your cost to book time. IOW, if you do it faster, I save. You encounter unforseen problems that the book time doesn't consider, you eat the loss. Would you do that for your livelihood if you were highly skilled and competent? I wouldn't.

So what's my incentive to work harder and improve my skills? What makes me want to finish my work ASAP instead of dragging it out to shop time? I have done jobs in 2 hrs that would be done in 30 mins IF I had the right tool. Also, with my fashoning tools to compensate for the ones I don't have increases risk of injury or breaking stuff. Tools cost money. If I were to do a job once, I wouldn't buy that special tool. However, if I do a job many times and I want to have speed, I will buy the right tool.

I wouldn't go to those shops you described. IMO, mechanics are given the incentive to be better by working harder, smarter and getting better tools because they want to beat shop time. When the car comes back, they have to do it all again at their own expense. My friend makes about 80 hrs a week working 40. He gets 1 hr for diagnostic work which if he does in 15 mins, he makes money. If he is incompetent, he has to work for 1 hr and breaks even, if he is totally clueless he works till he gets it right and gets paid 1 hr. That I can trust more than a mechanic that does it on a time and material basis. Now, an exception to that is in the performance area when they install say an unknown manifold and they ahve to fabricate stuff.

A shop has to treat EVERYONE fairly and not just the customers or it doesn't work right. If you treat the customer fairly but don't pay the techs well, do you have any idea what will happen? The good ones leave for other places that pay better and you get the remainder working there. Just like a union situation, if I a good and I know I can get more working across the street, I'll be there till I can get across the street. If I am so-so, I guess it is a push. If I am incompetent, I'll stay there because I know I have some security that a non-union shop won't offer

The Union analogy doesn't always apply.....where I work you don't get hired unless you have already know the work......we have no entry level jobs....its the Non-union people who have the idiots working there as they have so little job security the good ones leave for other places....I frequently have to fix problems the non-union people screw up.....and Union or not we do get rid of the poeple who can't or won't do their job. I've seen it happen, several times....Thats how the job I have came availible before I got hired. And there were 1,400 applicants to the job I have now. 400 of which actually had the qualifications needed. I was told this a few months after I was hired....

In my job you have to be able to do anything thats needed when its needed.....at any hour of the day or night.....and doing it alone meany s you can't bluff your way though it or get someone else to do it.

Now the teachers Union is a whole different animal.....they embody everything that is bad about a union.

That's right. I said "can." I did not say "should."

no matter how you look at it, it still follows the rules of supply and demand. Providers can charge what they want depending on how much business they want to retain. Since relatively few people want to get their own hands dirty fixing their car, they pay what the market will bear.

IOW, if they want to be completely fair they can do it but if they don't they are not being completely fair. I see.

I agree with your analysis of the required incentive for the mechanic to improve his skills and make more money.

However, you should be aware that this approach can be taken over the top.
Without proper supervision, the quality of the work can and will go downhill. A bolt missing here, failure to use a torque wrench over there, trim fasteners missing at another place, total lack of clean surfaces prior to assembly.................

All this points to shoddy workmanship which is directly tied to improved productivity. Of course, if the mechanic is so shoddy that he forgets a gasket, then, he will have to do it over at his own expense, so, kindly don't throw that up.

There is a fine line between incentive for a mechanic to improve his skills and reduce his time and shoddy workmanship to simply make more money. In your example, whereby the mechanic is cutting the book time in half, I firmly believe that you have a situation where he is cutting corners to do the job faster.

You have done some actual wrenching on the M/B on occasion. You know the right way to do a job and you know where you can cut corners if you want to get done fast. The job will probably last one year, no matter how you do it, so, the warranty on the job is not an issue.

There are shops out there that are not simply driven by the motive for profit. Tangofox has found some of those shops. If you choose to avoid such a shop, you are not as smart as I thought.

This thread obviously has direct effect for me, and it bears repeating. Book times are there for a reason. I don't always agree with them, some are too high, some are too low, but its what set as a guide and we have to follow it.

Taking the short time route and only paying for the time spent on the problem would be like penalizing me for being efficient. It takes experience and repeated times to be able to be quick on jobs. For example I know a guy who can do evaporators on 140's in 4-5 hours where I've seen other people take up to 3 days to do the exact same job, they both stil get paid the same.
The guy I used to work next to could replace pistons in ML's in about 6 hours of straight no break work. I've seen him do it. It pays something like 44 hours book time. He was so quick because he used to work in an engine shop for years and that was all he did, day in and day out. Try and tell him he's only getting paid the 6 hours he spent doing it and he'll tell you what part of his ass you can kiss.

I've worked for the last three years as a yacht mechanic- jobs are quoted in hours to the owners. If you can't do the job in the time quoted repeatedly, the yard finds another mechanic. If your repeatedly do the job in less time, the yard lowers the time quoted. Your incentive (and mine) to do the job right and quickly was what should drive all workers- to do your best for yourself and the company. Find another job or field that doesn't conflict with your "ethics" if you can't fulfill these. Someone who does a job in 6 hours and tells me the book says 44 but he's got alot of experience so he gets to keep the other 38 hours I would have paid him IS an ass, not someone who could look anyone in the eye and say kiss his ass. What is honest about that type of thinking? Sounds like he would also tell a housewife she needs muffler bearing and grease and then charge her for those.

I took it to Zimbrick once and didn't get Gilly. I had a 91 190E 2.6 then. I got their headman doing it. Well, he did a radiator drain and fill when he was supposed to do a flush. 4 months later, I saw oil still in the coolant and was not pleased and told the service writer about it and voiced my displeasure.

I wouldn't go to those shops as a first choice because I don't understand what motivates them to be the best they can be. I understand the motivation for my tech to improve himeself so he can work faster and make more money. I tend to work with people I understand and can more easily trust. Of course, if it comes to my side work, that is a different story. Some techs will want to work for time and others will give me a qoute for a certain job. however, those are mroe trusted techs so they work under a different set of rules. I tend to trust people when they have motivations I can understand as opposed to people whose purpose is unclear to me

It is the ideal scenario where people attempt their best for themselves, the company, the community, the world, etc, etc, I agree. Practical? No. I don't know any workers like that. Most of those I know are motivated by money. My employed are motivated by money. The better they do, the better they get paid. I never had anyone working underme that didn't subscribe to that. I'm sure there are a few that will do their best whatever the pay but most people who work under me or with me know that they have to work within their guidelines set and the better they perform, the better they get paid. IOW, their paycheck depends on their work. I don't need to motivate you. Work harder, get paid more. Work less, get paid less. Cut and dry.

Your theis is that if I figure a way to do it faster than my colleagues and/or competition I MUST charge you less? IOW, if I buy special tools and work harder and am more experienced and talented, I can't keep my extras? So why should I bother to do it faster than any other person? I give you a fair rate based on what is charged for a certain job. That has nothing to do with selling snake oil. In this case, they guy is charging market rate. He is experienced, has the right tools and busts his butt. The extras are his reward. I wouln't charge you more than the market rate but why should I charge you less? If the waitstaff at a restaurant does their job, I tip X%. Now, if they go out of their way and all that, I tip (X+Y)% and let the manager know. How is charging you market rate being deceptive?

You have some interesting thoughts on the matter.

First, you won't go to the shops as referenced by Tangofox as a first choice because you don't understand what motivates them to be the best that they can be. These are shops that work for money, but, they may also work for the satisfaction of doing a good job; something that you will never understand.

Then you bring the 190e to a dealer and the tech cuts corners to get the job done fast. This tech is motivated by money so, you would use such a shop because you understand what motivates them. But, you get shoddy workmanship, just as I explained to you, because this shop is motivated only by money. Then you complain to the service advisor, who, I'm sure listened to your complaint very carefully and assured you that the problem would be immediately corrected at their expense. :rolleyes:

That's how we make money in the auto/truck mechanical field. How do you think these ASE master techs can afford $8,000+ Snap-On/Mac/Matco/Cornwell boxes? That's how we survive. Example: R&I of a 94 Olds Cutlass Supreme auto tranny. Book calls for 8 hours R&I. If I do it in 6.5 hours, I make 1.5 hours profit. If I do 8 of those in a 6 day work week I get on the payroll for 48 hours but I only clocked 39 hours on the shop floor. Those extra 9 hours are all gravy money.

Tell me, do you get a x-mas/new year/quarter/annual bonus? How is that any different?

You're right. I never will understand it because it is rare. Actually, I haven't seen it yet. My issue is that I don't believe in the goodness of people. I tend to believe that people are basically bad. As such, I use the carrot and stick approach or as a dog trainer I once had help me with my dogs would say: NILIF. Nothing In Life Is Free. That I understand. People being good because they are good, I don't believe. I also believe that people can change but only for the worse.

That tech was motivated by the solitare game. He was knowledgable but that was his passion in life. He'd sit at a car with SDS hooked up to it and play solitare. Then when the work didn't get done, he'd rush thru the thing so he doesn't look like he was sitting doing nothing. He would be given 1 hr to do a job, piss 45 mins away and before the next job comes along, does a shoddy job to finish it. The service advisor agreed with me that MB coolant should have a longer life than a couple of months and it was redone. WITH A DIFFERENT TECH. I told them that I wanted Gilly to redo it and not reassign it to him again. It was the one time I left the car to be worked on and didn't insist on Gilly. Something that happened once in many years when I was totally swamped to watch.

In conclusion, there is no perfect system. You can always find some idealistic guy that will do the job better than a shop motivated by money. However, I believe that in the long run, you will find that greed is a better motivator than trusting in the goodness of mankind. I did. Once in a while, there will be a hiccup in my system but it has served me better than trusting in my fellow man.

In conclusion, you are a bitter adversarial person. You will typically get screwed by people who are simply looking to make the maximum amount of money on you at the present time. You actually prefer this. You were extraordinarily fortunate that the service advisor agreed to do the job for a second time. People who are motivated strictly by cash would have told you that the job was fine and that you are worried about nothing.

Greed is a great motivator for the person earning the money. It's not so beneficial for the person who has to bend over.

My final advice to you is to make sure you have several tubes of K-Y with you at all times if you continue to seek out the worst in mankind.

As a former mechanic perhaps I have a different slant on this issue. I got into the business because I like cars and like working on them. I always tried to do the best job I could no matter how much time it took. Sometimes a customer came in expecting a big bill and I fixed the problem in minutes, sometimes they expected a $1000 repair job for $10 and I couldn't help them.

The flat rate book was invented by the car factory to please the consumer and attract more customers. The factory would do the work on a brand new car using the most sophisticated factory approved tools, and that became the standard time. Customers like this because they knew what to expect in terms of downtime and repair costs.

Mechanics learned to adapt to the system by working like hell and cutting corners, and taking home 60 hours pay for a 40 hour week - if they were really good, and their strength and health held out.

But when a car gets old, all the bolts are rusted tight, and you can't take one part off without breaking the one it's attached to - then you have a problem. You can do the job on flat rate, and somehow chisel on something else to make up the loss. You can do every job only on a time and materials basis which means the customer doesn't know what the job will cost. Or you can take the bread out of your children's mouths.

Eventually I got tired of doing highly skilled work for slightly over minimum wage and I got out, and got into another line of work where I get a lot more money and a lot more respect for doing a lot less work, and easier work both physically and mentally. You needn't ask what line of work, there are hundreds that answer that description.

Like I said, carrot and stick. You work well, you get the carrot. I see you slacking, you get the stick. I read up my procedures and make sure you do it like you are supposed to. Actually, most of my screwing comes from the times I don't verify and trust, like in this case. I am motivated strictly by cash when I work. Know what? I don't care who doesn't like it. Here is my reasoning. I don't kill the goose that lays the golden egg. Therefore I take all trouble I can to ensure that I am at market rate or slightly below and I don't shaft the customer and max out my profit today but get nothing tomorrow. BTW, there is a reason I always pay by credit card whenever possible. Amex has been particularly good when it comes to me reporting that there is a problem.

Yes it is. It is the reason I do what I do. I get the max profit by looking at the long term. I have never shafted a customer because I want them back. If I make them bend over, they will start looking for someone else and while I max out my profit today, I earn nothing tomorrow. Business that lasts is dependent on return customers who bring other customers and not the quick buck today.

I don't seek out the dregs of society. I expect them to be the dregs unless they have proven otherwise and even then, once in a while, I "trust but verify". Actually, I have found that I have needed less lube since I instituted this policy then when I believed that people were basically good. Actually, I find myself happier in the long run. Either they perform to expectation or they exceed expectations. I am ready for their nonsense or pleasantly surprised instead of expecting them to be good and getting disappointed often.

Carrot and stick is fine if you are observing the work all the time. If you deal with a shop that is strictly motivated by money, you will definitely need to be a prudent observer to see if the tech is cutting corners or not. You may be able to do this for the M/B, some of the time, but, generally you cannot. If you seek out the people who want to earn the maximum amount of money, you will be the one holding the bag on many occasions. There is no way around this, much as you don't believe it.

Now, you say you get maximum profit by looking long term. Maybe the shops that Tangofox has utilized have the same philosophy? Maybe they are not out to charge a customer 10 hours labor when they can do the job in five? Maybe they will charge 8 hours for the job and the customer will be very pleased that he got a bit of a break in the price. In fact, he is so grateful that he will return to that shop frequently. Contrast this with your shops who charge book time, no matter if they can cut the time in half. The customer leaves the shop with a neutral feeling, at best. This is OK, provided the work was done properly. But, as I mentioned to you above, you likely cannot do a job at one-half the book time without cutting some corners somewhere. Sorry to all the professional mechanics out there, but, I ain't buying it.

You have taken a step back in your theory of obtaining the maximum amount of profit on a job in order to keep long term customer satisfaction. I'm quite confident that the shops that Tangofox was referring to do exactly the same thing. So, you might do another analysis of why you won't do business with such a shop, when you invoke identical business practices.

I don't know. I have a boat with an I/O motor, a PWC, 2 ATVs and 3 cars that I have been supervising for a long time. I had my house built and a friend who used to build all kinds of buildings look into it for me as to what was being done. In short, if I don't know about something, I find someone who does that I can trust to watch over it for me.

Well, depending on what was done, I have a mechanic that cut diagnostic time to a quarter but he has very few comebacks that are his fault. Of course, some are his fault but that is par for the course.

On a 10 hr job, if I want to be competitive, I might scale it back to say book time less a half hour. I wouldn't go to straight time or book time, whichever is less. I want to be competitive and not price myself out of the water. Afte all, I need something to seperate myself from you and if you charge $10, I would go $9.50 to win the bid if it took me 5 hrs. However, I have my limits and I will not go that low as to charge you $5 when i can charge you $9.50 and still win the bid. As to why I won't do business with a shop like that, the answer is that I wouldn't trust them if they went that low. There must be a reason. I mean, if they can charge me 9 hrs when everyone does 10 hrs to win the bid, I have no problem with it. However, if everyone else charges 10 hrs and they are doing it for 5, it raises the question of WHY. Why would you go so far below? I wouldn't. Like I said, a slight difference so you are competitive, I understand. Too much and I worry. I never trust anything that is too good to be true.

Trust me, if we all used straight time the customers would be paying a lot more. Book time rewards long term highly skilled mechanics for their skills. Book time is based off the "average" mechanics time to do the job without any coffee breaks, damaged bolts, unexpected things added in. This means that it takes the average mechanic that long to do the job not including going to the restroom, getting coffee, fixing stripped bolts etc. This works as a pay scale for mechanics. Newer and less skilled mechanics do not make as many hours as it takes them longer to do a job. Highly skilled and talented mechanics make many more hours as they have years of experince and skill, along with costly tools needed to do the job quicker. Even those of us who turn the most hours still run into problems which are unaccounted for. I have turned a Northstar Cadillac engine in a single day before (start to finish), beating the book time by several hours. However, I have also run into problems with these same jobs where that vehicle may have been in my shop a week because of unexpected failures or problems. While I may not have spent the entire week working on it, an hour here and there adds up and costs me money in the long run. I am fast, highly skilled and been doing this job for many years. I make more than the average mechanic because my skill warrants it. I have over $60,000 invested in tools and I am rewarded for this in higher pay and book hours I beat. The average mechanic makes the average pay and has the average amount of tools. When I complete a job under the book time, you are rewarded in that you get your vehicle back sooner and had it worked on by a higher skilled technician who had more experience. That said, mechanics in general are "grossly under paid" for their skill levels. Being a technician now days uses everybit of yourself, brain, brawn, dexterity, etc. Cars are more compicated than ever and only getting worse. A drivability technician is as highly skilled (or higher) than most doctors and while doctors only have a license to "practice", we are expected to fix it right the first time. All this while most customers assume right off that we are out to screw them.

Doctors have it a lot easier than mechanics because they only have to learn 2 models and they don't keep changing them every year LOL.

MDs are licenced to practice but they are assumed to be gods. They have to gaurantee that everything goes as planned or they get sued whether it is their fault, patient's fault or just life that sucks. IOW, you do everything medically possible and the patient doesn't heal or it doesn't heal in the way and/or time the patient expects and you get sued. 75% of OB-Gyns have been or will be sued in their career. Are they all bad? I think not.

yes but the add ons in terms of new things are going to kill them. For instance, an old retired RN told us that when she started there were only 10 drugs they had to know. Today, my wife is expected to know way more than 10 drug CLASSES and all their side effects of each drug in each class.

Unforseen delays was one of the reasons I left my previous dealer. Their customer car lot was so overcrowded it was ridiculous how much time was wasted trying to get cars out of the parking garage. Two non-adjacent out of four levels were for customers cars, now imagine about each level has 155 parking spaces, and every spot is filled as well as two rows down each of three aisles of cars double parked per level. It happened often, not a single spot of space left.

Now you, the tech, goes to get your next car, which is only for, lets say, a burned out headlight bulb and a stop lamp switch (C-class). 8 cars are blocking your car in, but oh no, they can only seem to find keys for 6 of them. In the meantime, a few more cars had been parked while you were away trying to track down keys, and now you have to get the keys to move them as well. Longest time I ever had spent trying to get a car out of the garage and into the shop was just over 2 hours. I heard heard others stories of even longer delays. It was especially fun in wintertime when it had snowed, and a porter had parked the car on the roof level of the garage! :D

By the way, you make .2 off the bulb and .4 for the stop lamp switch for a grand total of .6 minus the two hours wasted getting the car out, and you've made -1.4 on that job.

I'm glad I left, there were 80+ techs and only 73 lifts. My new shop has 25 lifts in, and room for 25 more with only 19 techs so far. Ahhhh, room to stretch out a little....

.................and that is assuming that you can change the bulb and the stop lamp switch in under 30 seconds......................... :eek: ;)

You don't write your tools off? Ever done ANY side work? then you can write your tools off... that's how they are paid for. Besides- aint no real difference in a $800 craftsman box and a $3000 snap on box. Yes I did get bonus- the company made money, and I helped them. I didn't do a job in 5 hours that they quoted for 10 three times a week and get paid for an extra 15 hours. All the better yacht mechanics don't look at the hours- the do the job right and worry about hours later. If you're so good you can always beat the book time- open your own shop. That's the free market. My MB indie charges $78 an hour (more than the average indie here), and charges for the time he works. He's always busy because he's honest and does good work. Other shops charge less per hour, but take more time and perhaps don't do as good job. While making $ is the supposed goal of all biz- it's not the goal of life. If one shop charges $100 an hour and does the job in 5 hours, and the other shop charges $50 an hour and does the job in 10 hours, they both charge $500 for the job. I'd rather give my $ to a shop who charges more per hour and bills me for what he does rather than a shop who charges less and adds hours to the bill because he thinks he deserves the extra for whatever reason. You're sliding down a slippery slope when you add hours to the bill to make $. My father told me long ago that he was just borrowing this world from me- and I would be borrowing it from my kids. Collectively our decisions influence what this world is like, and that's more important than $. Any shop can charge whatever the market will allow, and there is nothing wrong with that- but I and I believe others believe that if you are a great shop and charge more and do the job in less hours you'll still make $ and be honest. My and many other indies success proves this. I'm not looking for a fight or to stand on a soap box- just presenting one potential customers views on how I spend my auto repair $.

I once did a repair that I was very familiar with. Needless to say because of that I was able to do it in 1/4 of the book time.

when I presented the customer the bill ( I had given an estimate first) and stuck with the original estimate, the customer freaked out.
He said it only took me 15 minutes. why should I pay for an hour.
I advised him that any other tech or shop would take and hour or more between diagnosis and part R&R. He had someone very familiar with that repair, did it correctly and effeciently.

He happily paid the bill... ;)

Years back I was asked to do an oil pump in a Subaru. The first thing I checked was the book on procedure. First sentance was "remove engine from vehicle". I looked at it and said no way. I removed the radiator and grill and jacked the engine up a few inches. Pump slid right out. Couple hour job tops. Imagine what you would have paid had you been billed following the "book". Hell of a profit for a mechanic. I charged a fair price for a few hours work. The customer was very hapy. Mike

You sound like an indie I'd send my cars to... :P

Let me get this straight.

You are perfectly happy, and trust, a shop that can perform a 10 hour book job and get it done in 5 hours by working as fast as possible and cutting corners. They charge you 9.5 hours labor and you are perfectly fine with it.

Now, a second shop, who also does the same job in 5 hours, and also cuts the same corners, charges you 5.5 hours for that job. You don't trust this shop because they charged you significantly less than book??

And you don't trust the second shop because they have not bent you over far enough so that you feel comfortable.

Unbelievable.

Aklim would never go to a mechanic such as yourself because he doesn't trust you. If you don't charge very close to book then there is something wrong with you. :rolleyes:

Well, if everyone is charging 10 hrs and you charge 5.5, I wonder why you are so good to me. Everytime I had a situation like that and went with it, I ended up getting bent over. Everytime I didn't, I tend to find out later why I was right in avoiding that place.

I have got quotes for a body shop where everyone said $1000 give or take. One said he wanted the business and did it for $600. Well I got it back way, way later and the work was shoddy and I had a hell of a time getting him to redo it. This is just one example of what my wife would call "A deal that isn't a deal".

My point is that I can understand businesses giving a little discount to lure the customer. However, I wouldn't go that drastically low to do it. If they were in line with everyone and a little lower, fine. Way too low from what the region asks I don't trust. Would you buy my car if the going rate was $20K and I said 10K? I'd wonder what you are trying to hide.

My father is the cheapest man on the planet. There is no level of quality that will beat a low price. So, in this aspect, I agree with you. You can have many situations, and auto body and paint is a classic situation, where you get what you pay for. Attempting to compare jobs by price in this arena is highly dangerous, at best.

However, to bring you back on topic, we were discussing repairs by a mechanic. If one mechanic agrees to change a water pump for 8 hours labor and another agrees to change the pump for 5 hours labor, you are still getting the same product in the end, in theory. The man who charges 8 hours labor may get the job done in 5 hours and pocket the remainder. The man who gets the job done in 5 hours is charging exactly the time that it took.

You would be foolish to simply dismiss the lower price to change the water pump, simply because the price is 60% of book, IMHO.

I've been doing this for a living for a long time. I'm now working in my first flat rate shop. I'm an ASE Master Certified technician with $9,000 invested in TOOLS not including boxes. I support my wife and 2 boys on my income. I regularly beat flat rate, my average productivity is 140%, my comeback rate is ZERO !.
Comebacks are done on your own time, free. The extra money you make pays for tools, insurance against comebacks, bleeding, pain, and more knowledge.

Our shop has the best techs in town and it's difficult for us to hire in more. No one wants to work for flat rate because they would have to work. The average productivity in a good shop is 75%. Can you imagine having to pay your help for a 40 hour week when they can only produce 32 hours ? Now pay that out to the entire shop and give them regular raises for their substandard performance.

Flat rate is an effective way to increase efficieancy and quality of workmanship. Of course there are always exceptions.

Oh, and I forgot the school. I spend at least 2 weeks a year in school. The cost to the shop for putting me there every year is $5,000 for each school. Our shop budget is $80k per year for training. That for the 12 techs that stay there.

OK. I'll ask this: WHY? Why would you go to 60% of what every other shop does? I know I might go to 95%, lets say but I definately will not go to 60%. So, I am having a hard time trying to fathom out why anyone else would. Now, if it is a startup shop trying to draw in customers, I understand. You would be right that it is a better price IF they are both doing quality work. However, I still am suspicious as to why anyone would do it. When I didn't ahve the facities to do it, I farmed out an intake manifold job. The guy basically lowballed everyone else by 40%. Didn't make it home and the gasket blew out because it was not sealed right. Too much silicone and not enough torque on the bolts. This experience and many more in many different realms make me distrustful of too good a deal.

My problem is that I have had too many deals that looked good but turned out bad. Often, I found my butt sore and I didn't even get a reach around and there is a brown stain on the matteress when I accept these good deals. That is why I am suspicious. I tend to be cynical of human beings which is why I would rather stick with what the average rate is. Yes, sometimes I will lose out but so far, I have been ahead in the long run.

I don't follow. Why would you pay for 40 hrs when you get 32? I thought the job paid book time which means that you get paid by the job? If the water pump takes 10 hrs to do and you do it in 12, you get paid for 10. or do they have a gauranteed number of hours?

I assume it to mean there are periods of no cars in line for service.........