More 190e V8 swap questions
 

I posted this in the 190e/V8 thread, but I think it got lost in some of the replies about Tobias' 190. Anyhow, I had some questions regarding an MB V8 swap into the w201....

I've been looking at either getting a hold of a 5.0 m119, or a 5.6 m117 for the swap. The car is a '91 2.6 BTW....basically, I'm just curious which one would be more feasible. From what I can tell, the '117 has a few advantages over the 119

-cheaper
-more readily available from recycling yards, ebay, etc
-uses old injection system (CIS-E right?)

but then the 119 has some advantages too

-more power (probably the biggest thing)
-more efficient intake/airbox

I'm a mechanical engineering student so I think that I have a pretty good grasp on a lot of the technical stuff, but I would like to stay away from anything that will require a ton of fabrication. People have mentioned that the steering box had to be swapped out in favor of a rack/pinion system.....although I could do that if necissary, it would be preferrable not to. Does anyone know anything about an MB V8 swap into the w201, and how much fabrication and general banging around would be involved?

Also, does anyone have any idea what a good manual transmission would be for either of these engines? (5 or 6 spd only....not a fan of 4-spd)

Right now I'm leaning towards getting the m117 and possibly building it up at some later date....

Thanks for any help that anyone can offer!!

Right now I'm considering using the 5-spd Getrag from a 190e-16v just because I know it will fit in my trans tunnel w/o modification. I've done some research on the trans itself, and I figure that I would not overload it. Obviously the assembly is for a 4 cyl engine, but do you think that I would be able to modify the bell housing so that it would mate to the m117? Anyone have any ideas??

Quick answer time!

I've currently got an M117 5.0 V8 sat in my 190e 2.6. It's physically bolted in, but not 'plumbed in' yet. It clears the steering box, manifolds will have to be fabricated, you need to alter the metalwork surrounding the brake servo a little (although with mine being RHD, if yours is LHD, it might be slightly different....) and obviously it needs wiring in.

Aside from that, it's looking fairly straightforward(ish)!

Cheers, Martin

I think the M119 is quite a lot wider at the heads (a bloke did an M119 into an SEC, and it only just fitted in that...), although there is another person on this board planning to put an M119 into his 190e, so it may be possible, but with a lot more work.

As for a manual box, I don't know of any that bolt right up, they'll all need an adapter plate or custom bellhousing making up. I'm sticking with the Auto, on account of Merc manual boxes being awful! I'd adapt something from a BMW or maybe a Toyota Supra if I were going to do it...

Cheers, Martin

bwhahaha.....you just made my morning!!! I think I may go ahead and order the engine today :D

I'm the one who is planning to put a m119 in a w201....

As for the gearbox: i want a manual one, definately. And while I am in the process of customizing a gearbox to the m119, I might as well go for a 6 speed.

Here in Europe, the easiest way to go was a BMW 6 speed box.
After a little research, i discovered that the Getrag box from a 3.2 m3 is basicly the same as the one of the latest Supra (fast and the furious type, hate that film), Nissan Skyline (at the rear different because of the 4wd) and one type of Maserati.
This 6 speed box is also used in E34 BMW 540i , some 740i's, some 840Ci's, and in the E39 M5.
Maybe also in the e46 m3, dont know that for sure.

Spoke to a guy who has a 550 bhp Supra (at a dyno run meeting), and he sais that this type of gearbox is very good.

So, over a period of time i bought 2 M3 3.2 boxes, both with a small defect (jumping out of 3rd, and noisy putting it into 3rd)

Last week, i began finfing out how to put this box on the m119.
I saw that the bellhouse was to small for the starter wheel of the m119. WAY to small....
Off course i need to make my own flywheel.
The only way to get this trans to a m119 is to use a 1,5 inch thick adapter plate, and fabricate a very awkward flywheel (very 'deep')
I already had a aluminium plate of 3/4 inch (20mm), to make a adapter plate.

After this, I went looking for the same type of getrag box, but with a different bellhousing. The one which is used in BMW v8 (540i, 740i, 840Ci, M5 e39).

A few days later I had 2 boxes lying in the shed: one defective from a e39 M5 (car burnt totally) and one good one from probably a 540i.
Opened the m5 box few days ago: only suitable for parts, because some sprockets were very rusted, because water came in the box.
For sure, the bellhouse and rest of the casing is usable (I can also put axles ant the rest of the m3 box in probably)

These boxes have a bellhousing which comes close to the bolt patern of the M119.

At the moment i have 2 things on my mind:
-which flywheel to use/fabricate/adapt
-use a adapter plate, or weld up aluminium at the right places, and drill new holes.

I plan on using a e39 m5 clutch, because they are pretty cheap, 260 euro from Sachs, will fit the shaft of the gearbox, and is capable of handling 400 bhp (m5 has that amount of power). Maybe later on special friction material on the plate, because ive heard that m5 clutches easily can be burnt @ 400bhp (although a bit more power than a m119, not much more torque, and torque is what counts concerning clutches and 'boxes)

Why not use a m5 flywheel? Because probably that is a 2-mass flywheel, and i am not into that ****. Dont want comfort, i want performance.

I plan on keeping the original starter, and the big starter sprocket and plate on the crankshaft. ON the plate, the custom flywheel, using longer bolts than original.

forget to mention:

The v8 boxes have a bell house that is definately big enough. Even slightly bigger than is needed .

i prob would
 

trry to find a benz flywheel to use, but i wouldnt be surprised if a bmw fw was very similar.

i think i have read that some of the m5 fws have two disc clutches which give a lot more holding power and dont break your leg in stiffness.

tom w

so did the M5 trans actually fit inside of the existing w201 trans tunnel, or did you have to bang it out some to make it fit?

Also, did you just re-position the brake servo? What was involved in that?

Thanks for the awesome information

wow, hold on flynavy!
I havent fitted the 'box, nor the engine in the w201 engine bay.
First i want to bolt the box to the engine, and then try and put the whole package in.

As for the trans tunnel: dont know, but I have an angle grinder, a welding machine, and lots of steel plate:D

Everything fits, if you customize it;)

@Tom W:

I cannnot think of any Merc flywheel to use (which V8 had a manual 'box? Read somewhere a rumour that here in europe there are 420 w126 with manuals, but i cant find them...even not in germany).

Even if i had one: I would need to fabricate a BMW clutch to it, because of the Getrag box.

Right now im leaning towards a custom flywheel of aluminium, with a steel plate bolted to it for the clutch plate friction material.

check the link below, for what i mean.


http://koopjes.marktplaats.nl/auto_diversen/onderdelen_bmw/22016579.html?return=eJxNycsJgDAMANBdOkCrF5F0moCRlv5CEgsi7u7Vd30IKzwZlqiw7eBOnEOykcZkxhDCJCmDqfuGUow roqnvNVxKgkfLPbT7X5zYxfcDK2MfsQ%3D%3D&df=1

i saw an old 450sl the other day with a stick somewhere, so the fw do exist. i wouldnt be surprised if a 280 sl fw would bolt up.

and the clutches for bmw and mb are probably the same pretty much. both will be sachs right?

another possible donor might be the porsche 928 which came with a stick. the tranny though was in back. and the clutch might be a really oddball small diameter thing.

tom w

yeah, I did a little research and talked to a couple people experienced with this swap and it sounds like the manual trans from an r107 560SL would be a good candidate....this would be from a euro (or grey market around here) car. The guy I talked to who has done 2 of these swaps said that all they needed to do was bang out the trans tunnel by ~ 3/4" along a 6" section. Can anyone see any problems with this option? I assume that since the transmission is not electronically controlled, that I shouldn't have any problems integrating it w/ the w126 m117 electronic system. If this works, it sounds like the missing piece of this swap that I've been looking for

Mm, I really cannot find any 80's Mercedes V8 with a manual here, and definately never heard of a 560 sl with manual.
Link maybe, to convince me?

And that still would be only 5 gears.
And a r107 450 I think has a different V8 than the m119.

a 450 is a 117 motor with iron block i think. i dont know of a 560sl with stick. since i have seen the earlier cars like 350 and i think 450sls with sticks i figured that the later cars would have had them in europe too but most folks say the later cars NONE of the al v8s ever were offered with a stick. i still harbor the idea that a few may have been made but no evidence. i did however see a 420 s class offered for sale with a stick a couple of years ago out west nevada i think. i dont know if it was for real or not. people often advertise things for sale and when you call and ask more specific quesiotns they arent what the ad says. like i have called on maybe six 240s for sale as five speeds and when i asked them to go look at the shifter they come back and say oh it is a four speed.

so anyway if you could find a stick 350sl or 450 the bell hous and such may bolt right to a 560 or whatever.

good luck, i hope you find one.

tom w

yeah, I was talking about the '117 swap in particular. If the 450 was also in the same family of engines, the trans would have to at least be a lot closer of a match than the trans from an m102 190e. The time period when the manual euro 560 SL supposedly was offered was like '79-80 or somewhere around there.....so pretty early on....and maybe the guy who told me was mistaken when he said 560, and really meant 450SL. Either way, he claims to have done this swap a couple of times in the past, and this was the trans that he said they used. He also said that they used a w126 driveshaft which was cut down and retreated (i assume) to fit the 201 chassis. Reason being that the 190e driveshaft couldn't take the additional torque. Not sure if there is any truth to this, but that was what I was told. It seems kind of like in cutting the driveshaft, you would likely weaken it beyond the point of it being useful (vs. the stock 190e shaft). Any thoughts??

You are saying that he used a stick from a early 560, year 1979 or 1980, but back then the M117 560 engine was on the drawing board. I think the 560 (SEC, SE or Sl) wasnt sold until about 1986 or 1987.

That just cannot be true.

Maybe a 450 iron (?) block manual will bolt to a m119.......MAYBE
Maybe the flywheel too....Maybe

If not, go on customizing it all. In the end you probably have done the same amount of work, and you have a (very hard to find in the first place) 5 speed gearbox fitted to a V8.

I'd rather take a bigger step, and go for a 6speed from the beginning.

Did a search on www.mobile.de
 

For a 500 SL (any type) with manual: 20 hits
A couple of 129 and a couple later type's, all saying in the ad: manual
Checked the pictures of the interior: all automatic boxes

Looked for a 420SL with manual: no hits
Also no hits for a 380 SL with manual.
560 SL with manual: no hits

www.mobile.de is the biggest site (its german)for 2nd hand Mercedesses in Europe.

A ORIGINAL 80's Mercedes V8 with manual is i think the same as the Yeti: a lot of people heard of them, but no-one has seen them in real life, up close.

450 SL with manual: no hits

hmmm......well that isnt very promising. I am looking to use an m117, not an m119, so if one were around it should be more straighforward, but looks like it might be a dead end. And yeah, I got to thinking about the time frame when there was a 560 SL offered and it didn't really make sense. So he must have been talking about a 450 or something.....were those search results for european market cars or NA?

search was for european(german mostly) market cars.
But, also no 450 with manual.......

Anyway, yesterday i was at the local BMW dealer, and asked about the flywheel of the e39 M5, but it is, as i thought, a 2-mass flywheel.
So definately i will have to make my own flywheel.

did you check to see if the 280 flywheel will fit? how many bolts does the fw have?

i have an extra one from a 280sl euro. not sure what year.

tom w

Wow ... nice thread! My attempt to get info & involvement for doing a manual tranni mod of my car got -no- love on this board a good while back...:rolleyes: I was interested in doing the Tremec TKO tranni. Major props to you on this project! :bowrofl:

A Question. Wondering why not use a M113 engine like you have in your C43 in your W201 project? (I have one, a longblock, if you would want one)

Why would I do that?
-A 280 flywheel probably does not have the same bolt pattern
-even if it does: does it has the correct starter gear?
-even if that is also the same: I have to customize it also, because i need a BMW clutch on it.

What I mean to say: A 280 flywheel probably has the same amount of specs that i DONT have to alter, as a flywheel from a John Deere tractor: none.


Anyway, right now im in the process of measuring carefully the bolt pattern of a m119. Made some 'tools' and bolts to do this.
After that, it's the BMW tranny's turn.
And then lay these patterns up on one another, and find out what is the best way to match tranny and engine.

well,

you might check because you knew that the euro 280 has more power than a whole lot of mb v8s, or you might check because you knew that mb has a trememdous amount of interchangalbe parts across model lines such as brakes from the s class that bolt onto 190s and flywheel sizes and starter positions, or you might check because you just didnt know any better, or you might even check because you knew a lot.

goodbye.

tom w

I get the feeling that you are a bit offended by me. Sorry if thats the case.

What you say is true: mercedes makes parts that go on different models. Usually though, only brake, suspension, electronic stuff, that kind of thing.
But comparing a 185 bhp (euro) 280 engine, which originally was drawn in the early sixties (maybe late fifties), with a 326 bhp V8 of the late seventies, for me is to much of a long shot.
If I had a 280 flywheel lying around i would definately have compared it with the m119 crank, but that isnt the case. In fact, ANY make flywheel that i would have lying around of about the same size i would have compared.

But why are you hammering on that 280 'wheel? do you know more about that than me? do you know people who used it in similar projects?

again, no offence.

My educated guess would say your not going to find a flywheel from another Merc that will mesh properly. I would suggest looking into having a custom flywheel fabricated from stock parts.
Check out this guy; http://www.jbracing.com/flywheel-porscheul1.php
It looks like they could definately come up with a solution. I have never personally delt with these guys but thier work looks good.

The main reason is just the similarity of engines....both use CIS fuel injection, both are from basically the same era, with similar auxillaries as far as I can tell. The m113 would be awesome, but I think I may have a lot more trouble dealing with such a computerized engine. Also, I like the idea of the m117's tuneability. Correct me if I'm wrong though.....as that would be a pretty crazy swap as well

An easy fix for it all....
 

Have a flywheel made by SPEC in Birmingham, Alabama with a 10.5" Ford or
11" Chev bolt pattern and use a ring gear from a MB flexplate. Then find an old AT tranny to tear apart for the case, cut the back off and save the bellhousing area.
Machine that flat and weld a 3/4-1" plate to the housing and machine it to accept whatever tranny you want to use. You can then use your OE starter in the proper position and an inexpensive, easy to find clutch parts...in fact use the SPEC clutch, they're great. I use one in my 354"/ 440hp 190!! Pedal clusters are easy to come by and use a hydraulic TO bearing such as McLeod or Tilton.
This is the way that Sainz trannys from S. America are used/mounted in SCCA race cars.

Good luck,
TobiasMB
190-/5.8

just trying to help.

there is a lot of continuity in the benz line. the more things you have to fab the more trouble you will have making repairs later, and the less sellable the car will be.

i have kicked around a lot of swaps in my day but been pretty conservative in actual practice. and when tired of them were able to sell them along without much loss.

thanks for the apology. i was feeling dissed.

tom w

Woa ... that car sound FUN! You have a gallery or message thread detailing the car?

P.S. NC... I wish you were closer. would love to talk you into taking on a C43/55 for a manual tranni mod as a new project.
;)
sorry for jak'n the thread... :D

yeah, I'd be into the product of that project too:D

Thanks Tobias, but I am on the other side of the giant water splash: europe.
So american manual (6 speed) gearboxes are very hard to find over here, also usa carparts like the clutch you mention.
So i focus on european manufacturers.
Already have a couple of Getrag BMW 6sp boxes (also capable of easy handling 400bhp (e39 M5, Skyline, Supra), and am in the middle of making my own adapter plate. It looks, as if i only have to fabricate a custom flywheel (besides the custom adapter plate) and remove some material out of the BMW bellhouse, for the topdeadcenter-sensor.
For the rest i probably can use original oem parts.

Also gonna use the original ringgear from the flexplate, and original starter, on the original place.

update:
 

I have carefully measured the bolt pattern of the m119 and the M5 tranny. I had to modify some bolts on a turning lathe, and put a centerpoint in them, to to this, along with a few other helping 'tools'
A carefully layed these patterns over each other on a 2 mm steel plate (just to check which way to go), and the 20mm aluminium plate.
There are 2 holes on the m119 that i cannot use, because the bolts of the m5 tranny are to close. But with a custombracket i can still attach the m119 to the alu plate at that point (2 holes @ underside).

Then drilled and tapped the right holes in the alu plate. The tranny fits well to the plate, but for the engine 2 holes have to be redone.

Then I needed the ring-shape adapter cut out of the plate, with a big hole in the middle for the flywheel. Found some euros in my socks (97 to be exact, damn, its just a hobby.....:rolleyes: ), and brougth the plate to a company that cuts all types of material very accurate with very high pressure water nozzles.
Next week it will be ready.

Then i will redo that 2 holes, make some pictures, and fit the tranny to the m119.
Then all I need to do is make me a custom flywheel, but maybe first i will try and see if the package fits, or can be fitted in the w201 engine bay.

On the other side...
 

You've got a good start to resolve the problem. Did your 201 chassis have a 4 or 6cyl. engine in it? When I first did mine I didn't want to cut the radiator header out of the car and this caused me to install the motor/tranny vertically into the car while it was raised off the floor. Later on I cut the support and made it removeable or you can adapt the 6cyl. one in. This saves lots of effort/grief down the road later on.
Use a dial indicator to double check for any runout between the engine and tranny as this will cause problems quickly if not running true. Can you also use the M5 pilot bearing in the end of the crankshaft or have to use a custom made bronze one? When making the flywheel, don't bother with an aluminum one as they are for racing etc and the engine will idle better with more mass...just like OE! A good steel one, not cast iron, will work just fine.
Keep us posted as to your advancement on your project....

TobiasMB
190/5.8

reinier, Please tell me you are taking pictures... ;) That sounds fantastic.

Sure I am taking pictures! But first i must achieve something thats worth photographing.

@Tobias:
The car is original a 4 cilinder diesel.......
Why?
-Have 2 2.3-16v's, but dont wanna sacrifice them in case something goes wrong
-diesel car hasnt got a sunroof like the 16v's: i hate sunroofs, the rust and leak, and not for a 'race' car.
-I already made almost the complete nose of the diesel detachable (speednuts). I can tear the front down so much, that you cannot recognize it anymore as a mercedes not looking at the engine or suspension.

So i have maximum entrance when putting in the engine.

As for the the bearing of the tranny shaft: dont know yet, want to use a normal bearing
Flywheel: Dont know yet. Bad iddling doesnt matter: i want this car pure for track-fun

Running in line, checking that with a dial gauge..... I think i know what you mean, but not sure..... Can you explain this a bit more?

You mean: check if the center of the gearbox is at the exact same place as the center of the crankshaft, but how am i gonna do that?
The bellhouse is fully closed, cannot stick a dial gauge in there.
Picture maybe?

engine swaps
 

great thread!!! been away from the MB scene for a bit while building hot VW 16v's....

has anyone done a 420sel 126 engine/trans swap into the 190e W201?

i have a complete 420 and a very clean 190e....

would be able to swap the whole thing - wiring, fueling etc from the donor. Wondering how much fitting, modding etc this would take. Have tools - can mod :)

any pointers?

so reiner.....have you had any luck with your adapter plate? I'm starting to think more seriously about using the BMW box, and any advice you have would be greatly appreciated. Obviously the m117 may very well have a slightly different bolt pattern than the m119, but I think it will be close enough since the engine lineage is common. Also, any thoughts yet on a flywheel? Thanks in advance!

Yes, the plate is almost ready. It was hard to get all the holes in the right place. In fact only a few were right.
Already had 4 holes welded up before, and today it looked like I have to weld up some more.

But the bright side is, that today, the fitting bushes (or how dou you call them, bushes that put the tranny in exact the right place) from the MB pattern AND from the BMW pattern, are in exact the right place.

Made various tools etc on my turning lathe, to get the bushes in the right place, but now thats OK. This way the center of the BMW 'box is in exact the same place as the center of the M119 engine.

Now its just some holes welding up, and then bore them again in the right place.
Bit difficult to explain.

Anyway: when im done you'll hear it, and to save yourself a lot of work when you use a BMW 6 speed box: I can make a mole probably when im done.

wow....that would be awesome...do you know if the bolt patterns for the 119 and 117 are the same?

dont know, dont have a m117 lying around, and dont know anyone who does.

m119 & m117 share the same bolt pattern.

cool...I had a feeling that they would since I was told that the 116 and 117 blocks were geometrically identical (wrt the exterior) and the 119 was derived from this lineage of V8's

also, does the length of the M5 tranny pilot shaft (and bearing) work with the m119 crank? I would hate to have to modify/replace the trans shaft too.....

Ive had one before. It was back in the early eighties. I didnt like it very much. It was 5.0 117 motor in a @ 85 201. Auto trans with no known suspension or brake mods. It was fast in a straight line but the ride quality stunk. Its too front heavy with a cast motor. It makes the car feel real short too.........

Not to derail your thread but im thinkin of building a late model CLK drag/bracket race car. I might even try a 129 chassis. I think I can get one into the 10's pretty easy and drive it home. http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/images/icons/icon6.gif
Cool

Austin TX ... bummer. I need a guy like you here on LI to put my extra 4.3L AMG engine in my Jeep. ;)

Balcones- that's interesting that you experienced that; I had understood that the aluminum m117 was actually lighter than the m103 (original motor for my car).......maybe this is not true after all, or perhaps the difference you noticed could be attributed to a different distribution of engine mass?

I plan on using the more powerful 5.6L motor, so I will have slightly more power and displacement to play around with. The car has had significant suspension modifications, although I'm sure everything will need adjustment after I install the new engine. The other thing that will need some work is the wheel/tire combination, which can certainly affect over/understeer. Lastly, I will be using a 16v steering gear box instead of the looser standard 2.6 box.

Any progress w/ the m119 reiner? Don't know if you saw my previous post, but how do the crankshaft and transmission input shafts match up with your adapter plate?

Dont know for sure what you mean, but:

-the adapter plate as it is now, will have the center of the tranny shaft at the exact same place as the center of the crankshaft.

-Dont want to modify the tranny shaft either, thats for sure. I am gonna make the custom flywheel that way, that i dont have to adjust the crank or the tranny shaft.

No more news yet, to busy with a lot of things, and now 3 weeks on a holiday!
So August or September pictures of the adapter plate, after that fit the package in the 190 engine bay, and see if its doable.

Then, when i know its doable, i'm gonna make the flywheel (lot of work i suppose...)

cool, that answers my question....I wouldn't want to mod either shaft either