Can't we intercept that communication between the 2 computers and change the info with perhaps another resistor? I really want the additional timing but not the additional fuel cause I'm noticing I'm getting that additional fuel all the time not just during WOT. If I wanted to turn my fuel economy to poo poo, I'd change the rear gears instead. http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/...cons/icon7.gif http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/...cons/icon7.gif
Regards

Oh yeah I saw the picture of the car on the dyno plus it's in your sig but I still forgot. I guess I'll call it the door striker post.
I can't really check the timing with and with-out the resistor because I can't duplicate the no vacuum WOT condition without putting the car on a chassis dyno. and I'd rather spend that time and money taking the car to the track to do the A-B-C testing. Regards

I'm gonna have to get my 2 M-103 cars to the track and do some A-B-C testing. "A"= 24 81 resistor in place, "B"= resistor removed. Do you guys think it will be safe to run a jumper wire in place of the 24 81 resistor for test "C"?
Regards

Well you can make a switch to turn it off and on. All you need the switch to do is to connect a wire that by passes the resistor you have installed on the temp sensor's line. Keep the resistance connected all the time, when you short it car will run stock.

But on your car you cannot do it on the fly like in the M103 cars. you have to switch the car off and then on for the change to take effect. you can always tell when the resistor is fooling the ecu by the slightly higher idle and the more crisp throttle response.

As for the W124 300 gear ratios (automatic): do you happen to know what they are for my 1992 300??? are they the same like the E500?

Yes. They are as I posted for post 9/88 with 3rd remaining unchanged at 1.44 and 4th unchanged of course at 1.0 to 1. I learned this stuff on GSXR's (aka "G-man") site. I also intend to pit the 88 and 89 against each other to see if the gear change helped the 89 and later cars. The 88 has 35,000 fewer miles so that's one advantage for it. They are in about the same state of tune. Their most recent smog tests bear this out with almost identical readings. The 89 also has slightly bigger tires too so the odds are stacked against it. If it still wins, I think that will be fairly solid proof. The key of course, to getting the most out of the later trans. is winding it out in 1st gear like I said above. I've got relays in both of them now that do just that. (I'm always on the hunt for more however). Regards

Cool never knew that the W124 had differing gear ratios. this might be why the 1987 TE we had a while back was such a zippy take off.

By the way, do the TE moddles have more low down torque on account of differing camshaft??? cause that car always felt like it had more low down power than my 1992 300, unless thats just the gearing thing.

Also there are 2 compression ratios for the M103, the normal 9.2 to 1 and the rare 10 to 1. I have a 1987 (maybe 88 :P) 4-matic w124 300 and it has a compression of 10 to 1, its even written on its engine block.

Best Regards,

The TEs and 4matics had 3.27s vs. 3.07s for everybody else. Later (90 I think) they went to 3.07 for TEs and 4matics and 2.87s for everybody else but this might be a U.S. thing. That 87 would've had the older trans. which means zippier 2nd gear starts in day to day driving (2.41 vs. 2.25) but the later trans. has the edge in 1st gear WOT starts. (3.87 vs.3.68) You've got to surf around GSXR's site and find the trans. ratio page and the rear-end ratio page. I would link you but it would take me a while to find it and it's 3:30 AM here and the wife wants me to come to bed. Regards

Build date = 3/88

W124 sedans in the USA with 3.0L, M103 gas engines used 3.07 differentials from 86-89, and 2.87 from 90-92. The M104-powered sedans from 93-95 used 2.65 gears.

Ratios will be different for wagons, coupes, 4Matic, diesels, V8 models, and non-USA models. The full breakdown (for USA models only) is on my differential spreadsheet, click here to download the PDF file.

The info on the tranny ratios is in this PDF document.

:hat:

Dave

Up until 1989 the 260E ( 2.6L ) sedan had the 3.27:1 differential, which is the same as used in the 3.0L S124 TE
The 3.0L W124 and C124 used the 3.07:1.

Question for you..What 124 used a 3.64:1 ratio...diesel option ????

Ed A.

Ed,
I think it came on the w124 with the 5 speed auto and M104 3.0 24 valve head. Since those had a red line starting at 7000.
From what i heard that car is very rare in the usa.

D'oh! You are correct - I keep forgetting about the 260E. I will edit my previous post to clarify that.

Nothing numerically higher than 3.27 was ever used on a USA-spec 124. If there was a 3.64 in Europe, it was most likely used with a 5-speed (auto or manual), not a 722.3/.4 tranny.

:o

VERY rare. No 124 was ever officially imported to the USA with the 722.5 transmission. If any exist in the 'States, they are either conversions, or gray market imports...

:detective:

picked up a 3.64 about a year ago and the description said that it was out of a euro diesel

I just checked the 124.125 (250D diesel), which was a non-USA model, and yes - it does show both 3.64 and 3.67 gears were used. But as I said before, these were used with the manual transmission, not with the automatic (722.4). The auto version of this car came with a 3.07 ratio.

:wheelchair:

ya i just remembered the 5speed auto 3.0 m104 had a 3.69 diff And 3.46 came on the manual . So the 3.64 could be the euro diesel one.
And 3.29 came on the manual m103 EURO i think, i got the one i have sitting home from one.

The euro M104 3.2 5sp auto also has 3.46 diff

There are a bazillion different combinations available outside the USA... almost any engine / tranny / gearing you want. That's why I only put USA configurations into my spreadsheet, I was only interested in items I could locate in salvage yards in the USA. Anything else, you gotta go look it up in the worldwide EPC. (That's where I got all that information to begin with, btw!)

:surrender:

Forget CIS, switch over to Megasquirt. I will.

Thanks. I just found out my 88 was built in Feb of that year. I don't know where I got it in my head that it was built in the Fall of 87. May be cause my other 2 Benzes were built in the Fall (10/88 and 9/92). Regards

"Can't do it. The LH injection systems have logic built in to compare the two values. If they are significantly different, the computers assume a faulty sensor, and will use the higher of the two values. This is mentioned in the factory documentation somewhere (I just read this within the last few weeks)."

Would like more thoughts on this idea. Anybody?

Ill ask my mechanic. but i really doubt it can be done. i remember doing same thing to a C36 amg, we couldn't advance as much due to the car getting too rich.

My mechanic in 1998 participated in a bosch contest on injection systems. he ranked forth, so i do trust his knowledge of those systems.

I can't wait to see what he says. Regards

Ill ask him today when i go check on my w124.

Btw, i am buying the C36 from him, its his personal car. the car is Blue with 2 tone leather seats black/ light grey. door inserts and steering wheel and dash inserts are all leather in same light grey of the seats, looks very nice.

the car has climate control , moon roof, electric front seats, factory base kit for the sound system, 4 speed auto and ASR, and rear power operated screen for the rear glass.

can't wait to get the car.

Yeah, I've been thinking about a C36 myself---No money for one yet. http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/mercedes-benz-performance-paddock/239201-e500-w124-performance-mods-4.html (see post #54) and: http://www.500ecstasy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6323&page=2 (starting at post #25) See? Can't stop thinking (and talking) about them. Regards

Well i like the C36, i love the W124 alot more than any other merc bar the new c63 amg, but thats silly money:P. second ranks the 2.5-16 evo 2 and third would be the 36 amg or C55 w202.

drove a c32 amg some time back thanx to chlippo (thanx man) that car is sweet but feels like it wont last the hard abuse.

i dont know if the 5 speed in the c36 is as good as the 4 speed, i know that the w124s that came with the 5 speed are nothing but trouble.

i want the 36 as my daily driver to spare my w124.

Are you talking about LH or CIS, Eric? SHould work with CIS (maybe), not likely to work on LH. I still can't locate the exact place I read what I posted previously, but here's another tidbit about the LH, from 140 intro manual:

Fixed operating mode:
A fixed operating mode program is incorporated into the LH control unit. All input signals are continuously monitored. If the input of these signals is no longer plausible, the LH control unit will create a replacement value for the implausible signal. This insures that the fuel injection will continue to operate essentially trouble-free. For example, if the plug of the coolant temperature sensor is disconnected with the engine at operating temperature, the LH control unit will recognize this as an interruption and will enter the fixed operating mode. A gradual change in value is recognized by the LH unit only if the value is implausible.

This could be why my IAT sensor trick had zero result, when I tried to tell the system the intake air was really 40°F on a 90°F day.

:confused1:

on the cis m103 it sure does work and even if u have crazy values.

on the Lh well i think its smarter and will limit ur options, once i have the c36 (mid next week) ill have it with variable resistor and will dyno the car with/without the mod and with some diff values to see how much it will take.

my mechanic says i should be able to see 300 hp flywheel with no cats, time will tell.

Found it - page 153 in the R129 intro manual. And I was partially wrong, it was referring to CIS-E, not LH... although I would nearly guarantee that the same logic exists in the LH systems (I just have to find it in print somewhere). Anyway:

"The signals from both coolant temperature sensors are compared with one another. Should improbable results be encountered, a substitute temperature value is selected. If temperature reading differences between the two coolant temperature sensors are small, for example CIS-E = 90°C and EZL/AKR = 70°C, the EZL/AKR ignition control unit (N1/3) always selects the higher temperature value."

:boat:

on my 300 in hot temps (summer) i used to disconnect my IAT so it would stop pulling timing since the ecu would run a fix value for the IAT i would adjust my resistor to make up for it. the car ran almost as good as if it was a on a cold day.

ok, then that explains why the car would sometimes feel gutless :(

but that only happened sometimes, while most of the time it ran gr8.
but the r129 usually had the M104 engine in it, so it might be a bit diff for the m103.

bottom line is my car ran amaizingly gr8 with that mod, and it did smoke alot of faster cars, including bmw330i e46 among many others.

check my youtube link in my sig below

Jay, does your M-103 have a knock sensor? Somebody posted somewhere that M-103s never got a knock sensor.
What did your mechanic say about these crazy mods we are doing and trying to do? Regards

no the m103 doesn't have the knock sensor, nor does it have the timing retard induced by the overload switch of the autobox for smoother shifts from 1st to second. also i think only usa spec m103 came with altitude compensation function.

i totally forgot to ask him as i only called to see if any work was done on my car, he said they will start working on it on monday so ill make a note to remind my self :P

Here's that time slip:
Attached Thumbnails http://www.clubtitan.org/forums/atta...1&d=1236989324

Eric,
i did check with my mechanic, he said that on the M104 and the same for the 400 you cant change the timing separate from fuel, and yes there is a limit to how far you can fool the ecu before it reverts to set value. the ecu does this to protect the cat from any damage. but he said that you'll run more rich than its ideal for making power before the ecu intervenes and stops the game.

as for cis, you can run separate values or even just fool the timing side.

still i have no clear answer to what GSXR posted. it seems that M104 3.0 has that feature and not the M103. and since my car is now turbo i can't really try it as it will ping on the slightest advance over stock.

Yeah, I felt like I was getting more fuel than I want that's why I'm wanting to fool just the EZL side. Plus it gives the richer mixture all the time, not just when I want it which is during WOT only. I'm fine with the extra advance all the time cuz it improves economy and performance.
As far as the M-104 issues go, I think the difference is in the early vs. late M-104s. Remember, the M-104 has a CIS system up to and including 92. Or to put it another way, the 3.0 M-104 is a CIS, the 2.8 and the 3.2 M-104s are the newer set-up (HFM). But you knew all that already. Right? Regards, Eric

Ya i know that Eric. but what i can't remember if the v8 500 that have a CIS system (those early 500sl) if they are the same as M103 systems or not.

Any way abt the LH cars do they run MAF or not???? i know its stupid question from my side but i am trying to see what differs compared to HFM cars.

Yes, LH cars use a MAF (hot wire) sensor. The LH injection is a more advanced system than HFM. There are about 100 live data elements available via digital scanner for LH, compared to about 25-30 with HFM.

:hat:

CTS mod update
 

Hi all. Was able to do some back to back runs dummy CTS vs. normal CTS. 14.973@95.63 with dummy CTS vs. 15.146@94.57 w/o dummy CTS. (Corrected: 14.669@97.658 vs. 14.838@96.575.) The car was slower than usual because I went on a day that was seemingly added at the last minute and as a result they had a low turn-out. That meant no cool down time between runs. Many of my time slips are only 6-8 minutes apart! It's important to note that even with the dummy CTS the car will still slow down as it gets hotter but it is still faster with the dummy than it is without the dummy. (I guess the dummy isn't so dumb after all!) With the car so hot now my Jim F "resistorized" fans were running, I put dummy back on and ran a 15.052@94.59. Pulled it again and ran a 15.233@94.05 with the car a hair cooler. The car is so rich with dummy in place it's actually hard to start---kind of like a carburated car that was shut off while still very hot and then tried to restart after about 15 minutes of "heat soak" and the resulting fuel perculation of gas into the manifold. I need to rig up one of those "A/B" switches so I can switch back and forth between stock and modded at will. Regards, Eric

Hey Eric,

been a while man, gad to see the trick is working for you. As i have said before the trick works, it might work better on the old CIS as you have more room to move.

Any way i have the switch on my C36AMG, when the car is at 90 the scanner will show about 60 C deg if the switch is flicked on, annoying thing is if the car is running and u want the lower reading temp you need to turn the engine off then on. where as if the low reading is on and you want to switch back to normal it will do so with out having to restart the engine.

u can feel the AMG pull stronger with the lower temp setting.
but i have no time slips like u have.

Off topic, but i dont think the 36 AMG is any faster than your 400 man, at least if you compare the qt-mile runs. thou supposedly the 36 has just as much hp and trq as the 400 in a lighter car and proly shorter diff.

Btw have u ever checked if your speedo reads true? Last i compared the AMG’s to my gps enabled phone, I was off by at least 4% at 100km/h cruise control set speed, ie I had have to see an indicated 103 or 104 to be on a gps indicated 100km/h.

where as my friend’s Mitsubishi EVO is dead on at any speed!!!!!!!!

Yeah I'm expecting great things when I try the dummy CTS on my 2 CIS M-103 cars.

Thanks for the tip about turning the car off before engaging the dummy. I was turning the car off each time I changed sensors, but I doubt I would have thought to do that once I had my switch in place.

My 93 400E was rated at 275hp 295tq vs. 268hp 280tq for the C-36. The 92 400E was 268hp 295tq (All numbers American.) The C-36 has a huge rear ratio advantage (2.87 vs. my 2.24) which helps a lot. Stock vs stock the C-36 is faster by about a half second but my car in it's present state has removed that margin. But a guy could do similar mods to the C-36 and be a little faster again. It's a tough call though because there is way more room for improvement with the 400E. For example the 400E muffler and resonator are just awful whereas the C-36 already has an optimized exhaust system. Same for the ECU programing on the C-36: already optimized. So I don't know if the same level of mods would net you the same level of gains on a C-36. I also could swap in an S-class 5.0 M-119 very easily. It would be a direct bolt-in! I'm already running a 5.0 LH ECU and EZL! No such easy upgrade for the C-36. I still want one though.http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/...cons/icon7.gif I want one bad!http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/...cons/icon7.gif

The only info I have about my speedo accuracy is that it seems to coincide with the trap speed numbers at the track. Regards, Eric

hate to be late to a party, but just a few things i've found.. If you want to do away w/ the rev limit in an M103 car drop a V8 CIS/CISE FPR.. the relays work off 555 counters that count the pulses from the ignition on the TD signal.. Once it sees a preset # it cuts fuel. By dropping the V8 relay, it's looking for 8 pulses per rev. as opposed the 6 that the 6 cylinder is putting out, thus you get a 25% increase in rev limit and you'll Never go that far..well, maybe once;-)


As for getting fuel into these cars I had/have been fighting w/ my US 91 560SEC that I've put tri y's and ECE cams.. Installed the ECE KE and EZL to no avail, was still getting high 13's/low 14's @ WOT.. But I Did find that if I disabled the O2 I'd get down into the high 12's... So one O2 sensor wired through the rear window child lock out switch and I have All the fuel I want when I want it.. I've gotten Good at finding that switch w/o looking as of late... As w/ all things YMMV:)

Oh, and I have the R16 resistor pulled on this engine..w/ it in I was 2-3 degrees advance (bah..) with it out I'm running 13-14:)

Jonathan

----------------
Now playing: Blue Man Group - Up the roof (feat. Tracy Bonham)
via FoxyTunes

Jonathan thanx for reminding me that the o2 might kill any attempt at fooling the ecu into more fuel.
on my M103 w124 i had the o2 removed some 9 yrs ago :S

Are you saying you got a 560 (a US one at that) down to a 12 sec quarter?? On the strip?? Surely not unless it is extremely not standard.
Then again I was reading about your 6.0 32v yesterday by chance and watching the vid which seems pretty interesting (wouldn't do a 12 sec 1/4 though??)...

Anyway cheers for the info. I have a euro car therefore no O2. Which means I can change the fuelling as much as I like.... I've just had no success. Any info? What've you been doing fuelling wise on that 560?

Exactly. Peak power will be produced with A/F ratio right around 12.5 or so.

:hat:

If I could run 12 in the 1/4 w/ my SEC I'd be one Happy Camper! I don't see that happening till I have the $$ and Time to get my twin GT28 install up and running..!

I'm still surprised you can't get the fuel in.. If despite craking up the EHA it refuses to richen up I'd almost suspect your fuel distro to be @ it's limit..but that would seem Odd as there is usually a Good bit of room in these even from the factory. The only time I've had to have a unit tweaked to make the fuel I need was on an 88 Lotus turbo that runs CIS... We intalled a UTCIS unit and had the differential pressures Maxed, only to get mid 13's under boost.. In that instance the distro internals needed tweaking to get down into the 12's.

All of that aside, I'm trying to make some serious inroads towards stand alone for 117 and 119's. As it works out I'll be sure to chime in here:)

Jonathan

Uncle Jon, do you think your O2 sensor trick would work on an M-119 LH car? Remember I came up with the crazy idea of running a switchable 2nd "tired" O2 sensor for the same purpose (to richen A/F ratios at WOT) but you didn't like that idea. Won't simply disconnecting the O2 sensor cause the LH to throw a code? Regards, Eric

Eric,

Why would you want to enrich ur car???? Running AFR 12.5 or 13 is just the same and am sure ur car is abt 12.5 if not less with the temp trick.

I would love to run the temp trick on my AMG without the enrichment, and i have found the trick but i just need to install my Wideband to confirm it
Trick is throw 10% alcohol in with the fuel, that will surely lean out the mix
then enrich it back with the temp trick to the AFR i need. That way i get more timing on same afr as without timing. :P