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190E 3.0-12v Turbo
Finally had time to turbocharge my m103 , which took the place of the failed 2.5-16v turbo.
The setup is the following : - standard m103 engine - T3/T4 turbocharger with integrated wastegate - 6x630cc Siemens Deka injectors - throttlebody and tps from a 2.5L bmw engine - exhaust header from 3.5L diesel mercedes - Megasquirt I v2.2 ignition and spark control, using a 60-2 trigger wheel and hall sensor. Ignition uses 1 bosch ignitor, controlling the stock mercedes coil and distributor. - custom intercooler The whole project took about 3 1/2 day, started Thuesday afternoon and the car was ready Sunday(last night) around 20:30, lost almost a day at the machine shop :( . Car runs fine when not on WOT,to about 2/3 of the throttle. At WOT the car starts to detonate (at least sounds like detonation) over 5000 rpm, at first I though I had too much ignition advance because I started with 24 degs @ 0.5 so I started lowering the ignition advance in steps and got to 5 degs but there was still detonation. Most likely I have some ignition problem which I have to sort out. If anyone has an idea what the problem might be please chime in, my first thought is to change the sprakplugs to colder ones, and check the ignition dwell and charge time settings . The afr ratio at WOT is quite rich for the moment 10.9:1 - 11.0:1 , cruising it's ~ 16 and at idle it's 14.7:1 Here are some pictures from the setup : http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...o/IMAG0201.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...o/IMAG0204.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...o/IMAG0205.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...o/IMAG0230.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...o/IMAG0231.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...o/IMAG0232.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...o/IMAG0236.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...o/IMAG0238.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...o/IMAG0217.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...o/IMAG0227.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...o/IMAG0228.jpg |
Wow impressive to see so many used parts reused to build what sounds to be a rather powerful engine :) I am guessing that the 1/4 mile time you have posted is without the turbo? Are you going to get the exhaust manifold ceramic treated?
How did you know the 3.5L diesel manifold would fit, just noticed you had to drill new bolt holes i assume that means the pipes line up as a group but just need to be shifted 10mm to one side? and more importantly which engine/model does it come from cause if i can keep the cost down and sell one of my dads cars he will let me turbo his 300SE which i think uses the M103 that your playing with there? And why only a MS1, did you have that from the previous engine? Throttle body from a BMW....ewww but probably worth it :) MSII seems to be alot more capable for power production, i have a 450SLC running on MSII V3 with direct driven coil packs :) |
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congrats, boy do i miss my 300 turbo charged. thanx for using the TD manifold, i know now what i should do if i ever go turbo again. any way when i first installed the kit on my car i had a similar problem but at just over 5800rpm.
has this engine's head been worked on, if its been shaved before it could be that compression is up from stock, is it a 10:1 comp engine? i know am throwing guesses there but also do check if the turbo is throwin oil into the manifold as that will increase ur comp and weeken the spark, i also had a similar issue at the end when my rear turbo was leaking oil into the intake, but a few easy up the revs runs usually cleared the issue. any way best of luck man, cant wait to see how the car runs, we need vids. |
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http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...o/IMAG0243.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...o/IMAG0241.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...o/IMAG0240.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...o/IMAG0239.jpg |
11.5 bar/cyl compression is within range...minimum is 8.5 bars.
M103-12V is 9.2:1 CR which is almost optimum for a turbo engine. My M103-12V is at 12.9 bar/ 190psi per cylinder. Main things that would cause detonation are too low octane, too lean AFR or too much timing. You indicate fairly rich AFR's which should support timing advance. What octane gas are you using ? Ed A. |
Are you sure it actually knocking, and not just a bad signal from the Hall sensor. When i first installed my 36-1 trigger wheel i put the reading sensor too close to the wheel and it ended up distorting the signal when it went over 4.5k rpm and it would miss like hell and have a knocking noise to it as well.
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Off topic, but is the car missing the left firewall!!!!! ????
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immediately when I here the sound, also it run fine with no missing in NA form all the way to 6300 rpm (rev limit). Quote:
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BTW back when my car was stock for a period of time it used to have a knock like sound every time i reached 5000 rpm. i knew it was not knock then cause i know the type of knock my car made and the rattle i was hearing was different. the rattle was quicker and un interrupted then it faded over 6000rpm. till now i have no idea what it was but car ran with that for almost a year. that went away with the turbo install. Any way make sure the metal sheet that covers the engine mount is fixed firm and look for any metal shields that might be rattling about. And always use 98, as 95 is sure to cause detonation, but u already know that :P, but factoring in that u have droped ur advance that much, i doubt iits detonation u hear. |
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i was using bosch super+4 ranges 5/6 |
check the plugs, go for a new cooler heat range like your going, just go for copper plugs, they are ment to be better st preventing detonation than these new iridium tips etc,
the plug gap may be to large, and with the increased fuel/air mix in the chamber it may be strugling to fire,or it could be from a build up on the plugs or sharp point etc, u sound like youl get it sorted tho! if you ease boost off alittle bit and if it stops doing it you will know its pre-ignition/detonation |
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95RON=90USA 98RON=93USA I wouldn't use anything lower then 98RON. Try adding some octane booster with MMT..I use Lucas. Plugs, I would use non-resistors. Turbotechnics supplied NGK BP6EFS gapped at .030 They are non resistor and one heat range colder then stock. I'm not familar with the MS system. I use the stock EZL with the USA spec R16 resistor removed that gives me a 6deg advance. Coil is also stock. At 6psi I ran a 14.39/90mph with no traction. Increased boost to 7psi, no track time yet but 302 torque at the rear wheels (approx 380 crank torque ) Just installed a manual boost controller to synchronize the turbos and have increased the boost to 9psi but no dyno run. Never had any detonation even in 35C ambient... Just can't get traction !!! |
Suffered a head gasket failure on the 2-nd cyl. Recкon it was time for it to go since I didn't change it when I bought the engine, and the engine had not been driven for a long time . Here are some pictures of the head gasket change, all that's left to do is to change the chain guide rail this Saturday and fire it up again :)
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...t/IMAG0291.jpg gasket gone on 2-nd cyl. http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...t/IMAG0295.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...t/IMAG0296.jpg the old gasket http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...t/IMAG0305.jpg some dirt on the 3-rd cyl. http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...t/IMAG0300.jpg cylinder bore, no wear at all as if the engine hasn't been driven http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...t/IMAG0309.jpg new head gasket - Goetze http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...t/IMAG0313.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...t/IMAG0317.jpg |
If you're going to pull the timing cover to put the guide rail in, I'd look into installing a 603 oil pump gear and chain. It has a lower tooth count and therefore runs the oil pump a bit faster. Given the small displacement of the 103's pump, it would be a good upgrade when feeding a turbo.
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Oh bad luck! your going thru the exact thing i went thru when i first boosted the MERC.
I blew a H.G first week driving the car, i was running tooo lean. So u think ur HG blew out of age, cant it be due to the knock u had (or have pinned down that issue.) Just check if the injector on that piston is flowing enough, i mean having a correct AFR doesn't deal out the fact that an injector out of six can be spraying much less than the others. Don't know really just thinking out loud here. |
duxthe, thanks for the info, I'll look into the gear and chain.
Jay, I'm 99% positive it's from the age of the gasket , you can see in the pictures that it looks like it's started to decompose, coming from the fact that the engine was not driven for a long time before I installed it in my car. The injectors are new and checked. Just for record, AFR was ~ 11.5 and the ignition timing was 24 degs. @ 0.5 . Anyway, hope to change the guide rail Saturday and then do some g-tech timed runs (1/4 mile and hp) on Sunday. |
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Neither Turbotechnics or Mosselmann had concerns about the stock pump and some of these cars are approaching 200K miles without having to open the engine. The pump maintains design pressure and the feed to the one or two turbos in no way lessens this pressure or reduces volume to the engine. If it's not broke then don't fix it.... |
While certainly not necessary, I still maintain it is a good idea. The 103 has the small pump and the slow spinning gear. The 104 has more oil demand and has the larger pump. The 603 has even more demand and has the larger volume pump and has the smaller (faster) oil pump gear. (the 603 also has a higher pressure relief valve spring) All of these engines have almost identical reciprocating assemblies, the differences are the consumers in the oil supply. There is a correlation between the oil demands of the engine and the oil pump output. Given that he will be looking right at the oil pump gear and chain while swapping out the rail, it would be an easy swap to switch out the oil pump drive gear and chain for more oil volume at lower engine speeds.
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on this i agree with Duxthe1, especially since the car has an SA system, ie has potential to make big hp numbers. I also advise on fitting at least an oil to water cooling element from an M103 W126 engine ( engines on those cars had this oil cooler) or at least check if the M104 cooler can fit. Even more, try locating the cooler from the 3.0-24 valve M104 as this is an oil to air unit that has the radiator located in the front bumper on the side.
just some ideas, but the oil cooler i say is a must have. |
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Disgree with you..it's overkill... Sometimes when you fiddle too much you end up with that which you don't need... I'm old school and making documented power with an unopened engine... My water temp is as stock, and oil temp never a problem. My turbos are water and oil cooled so the additional heat is easily absorbed by the stock systems. No pinging, no overheating, perfect fuel maps at close to 10lbs boost. Installed an oil catch can and so far not a drop of blow by which indicates pressure not excessive in the engine. These cars were over enginereed and just about all the stock components can accept boost without change...including fuel pumps, fuel pressure regulator and injectors.... Any of the changes that are being suggested would not provide me anymore power or reliability... But choice makes the world interesting...I can only go by what I've proven that makes power on a dyno ! Ed A. |
ed
I agree, but even the 36 with its mere 270 hp has an oil cooler. After all for an engine to make over 100hp/liter and be reliable under heavy use, it needs some basic tools. The cooler is no over kill IMO. But i agree that the M103 is one over kill in engineering for the power it makes. In my engine's rebuild i ended using my same pistons and rods Just a new rings set. And the broken ring on piston one didnt scar the wall. All clearances were still in acceptable range despite the 230k miles + of tough usage. |
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More volume and cooler oil is great... Point that I'm trying to make is that the M103 does not have the same internal oil delivery system as the M104 or the 603? diesel. You'll end up not with anymore volume but more pressure and a quicker return to the oil pan. If you wanted more pressure you could just change the spring in the M103 pump. Either way you're not getting any volume due to the system restrictions... Remember the oil that is important is just in the form of a very thin film... An oil cooler is a different thing...I agree it's not overkill....common on cars that do heavy service in rough ambient conditions, same for a trans cooler. My stock 180hp? W113 has an oil cooler mounted next to the radiator. It's all about heat transfer and extraction... To me the M103 is one of the most rugged engines that Merc has built...simplistic, strong and can make much power without breaking. Stock compression is a natural for boost... But we know that !!! Ed |
true ed.
Ironic that my M110 has an oilcooler where as my M103 has absolutely no oil cooler for the engine.! But still for me the M103 is probably the best engine ever made. A close contender would be nissan's inline 6 in the old skyline GT-R. |
Thanks for the suggestions . I have an oil cooler left over from the 16v engine which I could mount but the problem is the the m103 oil filter console (is that what of call it ? ) doesn't have the input and output for the oil lines to the cooler. The 16v console was them but it's not compatible with the m103 block, maybe a console from a m104 might do the job. However so far I haven't seen very high oil temp in this engine, usually it stays just below 100C degs and climbs to 110 when I drive it very hard.
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I see about the same oil temps...that's why I feel the stock pump/delivery system will handle ( and in my case does ) a twin turbo install. The M103 is an over engineered low RPM power band engine and if maintained doesn't exhibit problems with fluid flow and cooling. |
The 103 is a great engine but out of the box it isn't a great long term turbo foundation. I bought my first TE with the mosselman twin turbo kit (.5 bar)installed and the engine blown. :eek: Teardown revealed numerous problems.... excessive rod bearing clearances, broken rings, deformed ring lands, damaged head gasket and head. The previous owner had spent 24K$ in repairs at our shop before selling me the car so it wasn't neglected to get in that shape.
If the 603 oil pump gear is installed it will not raise the peak oil pressure, just reach it sooner with more volume. The maximum pressure is controlled by the relief valve spring, which will remain the same regardless of how fast the pump spins. |
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Its a discouraging post !!!!!, unfortunately it might be very true as my engine after 25k KM with the turbo kit suffered the following: - 1st and 6th rod clearances were off - piston 1 suffered broken ring. - piston 1 has a very very slight deformation on the ring land. But i have to admit that my car had very high mileage on it before the turbo kit. Then during the first few 1000 km with the kit, the engine ran lean at the top end with knock on every other full run. even after ironing out almost all my issues with the alcohol kit my car still ran slightly lean from 3000 to 4000 rpm. and i still believe that i used more water than i should have by mere mistake breaking my ring. Actually i also had a very weird issue, chlippo even got the chance to hear the knock my car used to have. It was an issue that i believe was due to excessive oil due to a blown turbo seal, and the knock would go away after a few part throttle runs (knock was only in when close to full throttle). All this to say that if u properly tune the M103 turbo like Ed's setup and u will enjoy a reliable engine. Mess the tune abit and it will be expensive. Duxthe1, I am leaning to the idea that the mosselman car had its enrichment system pack up, running lean and causing the damage. And all it needs is a few runs lean to have irreversible damage that will kill the engine eventually, even after sorting any fueling issues. |
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Mosselman used a proprietary controller that still had detonation problems under boost. Turbotechnics went in the correct direction with additional injectors but did not have the ability to control them effectively with their piggyback unit. They both resorted to pulling timing. In late 2006 when I purchased a NOS TT kit, I sought out the only individual who knows how to make power with the KE-Jetronic. In fact Willy Mosselman is on record that this individual made his turbos go faster then he could ( Autoweek August 17, 1987 ) It took a great deal of collaboration to determine the best way to maintain the KE as stock but yet get optimum AFR under boost. Took a lot of R&D, trial and error and hours on a dyno. The end result is still working very strong after two years and making more power with every adjustment made on a dyno. In fact I run about a 6 degree advance over stock. To say the M103 isn't a long term turbo foundation based on a junk engine you purchased shows a lack of knowledge of how many twin turbo M103's are still in service. Initial installs go back to 1986 and many of the TT"s are documented with close to 200K miles. The engine doesn't need any more oil, or a larger throttle body or the EZL or KE control to be fiddled with, not even a change over to EFI.....it just needs to have a control that will assure an AFR of around 11.7 under boost.. I'm running 5 second 60's and low 13's-108 using a G-Tech 3 axis accelerometer....and the car passed state emissions with flying colors !!! And it will go faster with my next project which is getting more power to the ground...running around 340HP / 390 torque at the crank....in essence I've so far doubled the published horsepower. |
I will be turbocharging my M103 (with jayrash help and help and help) this summer hopefuly so... dont scare me guys :D!
I stand by a fact that mercedes may have overengineered this engine and we all know that. But it wasnt overengineered to be turbocharged and handle 400 hp. I dont know what is the limt that the M103 can handle but for sure more the setup is clean and well done, less the engine will suffer The thing isnt by growing the hp and torque numbers...we need the car to run so we can have fun. Great job on the car man! i really like your exhaust manifold! ive been trying to find one like this since 1 year :D |
We could argue the point back and forth ad infinitum. You're right that it doesn't need more oil to function. I don't insist that it does, but I do insist that it is a good idea. There are two ways to look at it.... you can increase the oil demand and hope that supply stays within acceptable limits. That will be fine.... right up to the point that it isn't. The second option is to implement the same engineering that Mercedes already put into its engines with higher oil demands by replacing two parts that are easily accessible during the upcoming repairs. Honestly if he weren't already pulling the timing cover I wouldn't have even suggested it as it is a good bit of labor to just go in after the gear alone. There is no more power to be had and probably there will be a little more parasitic pumping losses. But this isn't about 1/2 hp @6000RPM, it is about your margin of safety. The 103 is a well built motor as is and can take a lot of punishment. However when you start getting near to double it's rated output do you want to be on the low side of that margin of safety or on the high side?
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Considering all that Roman and RBYCC have accomplished with m103's, being total opposites from one another, there isn't much to argue about turbo m103's or their power holding.
Roman took the modern approach for maximum power and RBYCC added only what he needed in order to have a stockish, super-reliable setup. The one thing that unifies the two is the fact that they kept their M103's in tip top shape, RBYCC owned his from day one off the showroom floor and Roman totally rebuilt his junkyard engine for big power from the start. RBYCC's is a testment to the reliability of the engine and Roman gave us piles of info on the tolerances of the engine. The stock engine has been revved to 10K+ rpm, boosted over 20psi, made well over 600rwhp and hammered on everywhere. The M103 is Mercedes' 2jz of engines. |
Small update. I put the engine back together and fired it up, bad news is that it's working on 3 or 4 cyl, looks like there is some problem no cyl 4,6 and maybe 5. They have spark and fuel (but spark plugs look wet on 4 and 6-th ), there is no smoke from the exhaust or the ventilation. Suspect is stack valve lifters which don't close the valves fully and perhaps broken ring lands. A friend also suggested the there maybe a problem with the head gasket. Tonight after work I'll do a compression test a see what comes out.
P.S. Strange thing is that when I disconnect the injector (the electric plug) from cyl 4-6 the engine starts to work smoother ..... |
Did the compression test last night, turns out that there is no compression at all on the 6-th cylinder. Put oil in the cylinder measured again and again no compression. This lead me to think that a valve was not closing, so I took off the valve lifters on the 6-th cyl. (thought that there might be a stuck lifter) and measured again, again no compression . Did a smoke test (I don't smoke but ..), blew cigarette smoke into the 6-th cylinder to see were it'll come out. It came out of the plug hole in cylinder 1 when I put a plug in the 1-st cylinder it came out off cylinder number 4. So I'm thinking that this might indicate a cracked ring land on the 6-th cylinder or bad valve (smoke going through the exhaust header than back to 1-st or 4-th cylinder). Thinking that if it's a cracked ring land it should show at least a bit of compression on the measuring gauge ?
P.S. The head will be coming out in the following days and if the problem is not a valve , then the whole engine will come out to determine the problem and fix it . P.P.S Also there is a lot of oil in the intake manifold .... |
**** thats a downer man, good luck
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Car is in the workshop and this Saturday the engine will be stripped down. Since the whole engine will be striped down I'm wondering if I should machine the pistons so they became like a dish (machine off squish ?? area), which will lower the compression a bit . The other and probably the most logical solution is to leave them alone :) .
Here is a picture of the area I'm considering to machine off . http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...IMAG0317-1.jpg |
Dont mess with the stock pistons. Aren't they silicon coated to prevent them from melting since they're aluminum? Do what roman did and have the chambers in the head mildly milled out and the inward edge smoothed up. I wished he'd rehost his pics so I could show you what I was talking about.
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yes if they are Mahle pistons am sure they r silicon coated, and a thicker HG should help out in dropping the compression
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If that's the case, I'll leave the pistons alone . Turbo E320, I seen that pic of the modified head but come to think of it, since I'll be running less then 1 bar ( 14.5 psi) of boost (0.5 daily and maybe 0.8 - 0.9 at the strip ) I wondering if there is a need to modify anything at all. Maybe just smooth out the inward edge since sharp edges help detonation .
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If you are still stock at 9.2:1 then you need not reduce your compression....just maintain a rich enough AFR under boost to prevent detonation. Keep in mind you are not constantly under boost... I can drive all day and as long as I don't rapidly increase my throttle opening I stay in vacuum to atmosphere on the gauge. I've raised my boost to about .68 bar with no problem. The install is about two years old with initial boost at .42 bar and slowly working up via the MBC. About 6000 miles on the turbos and running stronger and stronger. Ed A. |
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Flooring it from 50mph to 100 mph thats the sweet spot. but in 2 yrs 6000miles!!!!!! boy did i abuse my poor w124, i did almost 15k miles in less than a year. |
Today I got good news, the problem is a bent valve on the sixth cylinder, pistons are fine. Must have bent the valve when assembling the head ...:mad: . Since the engine is apart I've decided to do a full rebuild i.e. new piston rings, conrods and main bearings, valve oil seals, and so on :) . I've ordered the parts and hope to have the car ready by the end of next week .
Ed, I can maintain a rich mixture with no problem with the current injectors (6x630cc) and Megasquirt. I can even get it into the 10-s with no problem (currently it's tuned rich ~ 11.0:1 at boost, as a rule I start rich when tuning and then go back), I can also pull back timing . The engine compression is stock 9.2:1 :) |
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those are massive injectors considering what boost level you are aiming for,
have you upgraded you fuel pump also? and what fuel pressure are you running? |
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Oh btw I've decided to go with three-material Sputter bearings. |
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