BAD 300E project commenced
Hi all, was told about you guys from 2 other forums. I have recently purchased an 87' 300E that has been well, kinda modded :D
It has however suffered @ the hands of the previous owner/builder. Let's say I got it in the nick of time before he well & truely crucified it! :mad: I need some parts & advice so, here it is. I'll wack up just enough pics to show you the car & that I am serious. As you will quickly see, this previous owner has spent alot of $$$$ & love/time on this. It has forgies & MSD stand alone for fuel/spark. Also, it runs on constant LPG via mixer! I intend to finish & fix uo the balls-up so to speak. Right now I am in process of removing engine block & taking it to my builder for resurrection. It's hard to believe this engine has done only 4k since full rebuild, although it was done some years ago & has sat & well, is stuffed now! :( First part, I am after is a custom exhaust manifold. The spaghetti/spider type with equal runners. Either stainless or steampipe. It currently has modified orig' 2-piece manifold. Not my favourite :o Turbo is currently TO3 highflowed to TO4 but, looks as though it has succumbed to same fate as poor engine. So, if I get another turbo, what are good performance options? I am turbo savvy but admit, right now to all, not Mercedes savvy & am willing to learn from ones that know. Any advice is very appreciated. I know & have read of stock M103 engines with twin turboes etc. I am interesterd in this engine seeing the full potential of bullet-proof bottom end taking way more boost than 7-10psi. Like, 20-25 @ least. Here's a pic of the similar manifold I'm after. This is actually from your forum: http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/x...untitled-1.jpg Car Pics: http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/x...pBLSt1bf7k.jpg http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/x...iQBLSt1esu.jpg http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/x...rRBLSt2sEu.jpg http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/x...NcjEBLSt1s.jpg http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/x...T/PICT0347.jpg http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/x...T/PICT0390.jpg |
I'm afraid I'll be learning from you more than I'll be teaching.
Two things I would advise however is for you to install the piston oil squirters and windage tray from the M104 if that hasn't been done already. That header is for a four valve head. (But you probably already knew that.) This project is cool. (You probably already knew that too!) Jay, isn't this thing cool? Regards, Eric |
I know this car is wicked but I must confess I'm just starting with it. The last guy gave up after he let it sit too long :(
My first step, since I'm forced to rebuild engine is to toss the stock ext mani. Any advice from here would be great! thanks guys |
For some reason the fuel injector bungs are plugged on your intake, I guess it's an older fuel system than the CIS fed M103's have in the states. Get a stock manifold with the fuel injector bungs(or make one) along with at least a fuel rail and 36-1 trigger wheel from turbobandit.com. With those you can start putting a new ECU setup on the car to handle the turbo a lot better.
|
there is no CIS like this on any merc, seems like its been converted to some sort of carb system!!!! or just TB Injectors.
|
Gentlemen, that's not CIS. Read the first post. That's and LPG mixer.
He's runnin' off the stuff you make your hot-dogs with. |
I may be missing something , but I don't see injectors on this pictures. All I can see is the LPG evaporator (think thats what you call it). Looks like this is a very old LPG system, the new ones are injected and work very well . Looking at the pics I also think this car runs only on LPG .
P.S. is there a mixer on top of the throttle body ? |
ya and silly us guys cause the OP mentioned it in his post :$
edit: its either all of us were posting at abt the same time, or non of us are reading here, but for MAG. hahahah and Mag as i have heard LPG has high octane and thus will resist detontation better. its just that u need alot of it to reach proper AFRs |
Quote:
|
hahaha rofl, musta looked quite weird if you didn't read the finer points :D
Can anyone suggest where I can get a hold of a good custom turbo exhaust manifold then to suit this 12v head? Just to clear up the set up car is running, it's running Air Research LPG mixer set up, as seen on inlet manifold in pic LPG mixer is managed via MSD stand alone, as in bottom pic. Yes, it would be better system if it had LPG injection but, mixer still can work well. I intend putting bigger LPG jets in it & dynotune properly once engne is sorted. The block has been o'ringed too. Whether car has sat with old coolant in it or seller run bad tune etc, I don't know but I have had to get a reco head & now need to have engine rebuilt again. To save anymore confusion, here are some pics of the raped engine :( You can see the heat problem the head suffered: http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/x...T/PICT0372.jpg http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/x...T/PICT0373.jpg This shows rusted, grooved bore. Just to think it's done 3k since build with forgies :o http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/x...T/PICT0381.jpg |
Quote:
The only other problem is that LPG doesn't have any lubricating properties that gas has on the valve stem, so you get much more wear on an already stressed part. There's pro's and con's to both. |
I saw this car for sale a while back on carsales... i'm in melbourne too, interested to see how this goes.
|
Quote:
A mixer indeed yield good results but I believe it is the tune ie AFR that is the concern here. This engine has suffered heat/corrosion. No brainer. Just what went wrong I won't know fully til' rebuilder has a sqiz. I believe it ran too lean amongst other things. Rebuild was an abortion full stop! On a brighter note, I have sourced a brilliant LPG man near where I live so, will be talking to him soon. He does the Gas Research conversions down here. After rebuild, he can get it right from there. :cool: Quote:
Whereabouts in Melbourne are you? I'll have to catch up when it's all ready to roll :) |
LPG has an octane rating of 110 (R+M/2 method. It's actually a higher number when rated by the Euro rating system). This means you can run way more boost before detonation occurs (provided the AFR is correct). That's why I said this car is cool.
Regards, Eric |
Solution. Convert to EFI and run E85. 105 Octane (R+M/2) and cheaper than regular gas(at least here in the states). You'll have to update the lines and use a more current fuel pump like a Bosch 044(About $200 and flows enough gas to support 685bhp) but it's worth it.
|
yea convert to efi like turboe320 says,
am i correct looking at your pics that only a few of the cylinders look to have leaned out, (the middle one?) welcome to the forum and tuning forced benz's, there arn't many that do it, but that makes it so much cooler :D roman (pumpish) has a merc tuning website, and seems to have great success tuning the m103, maby he may sell a manifold or be able to help you in some way, |
My vote is still for the LPG. Plus he has already indicated that he basically wants to finish and improve upon what has already been started. It would definitely be the least expensive way to go and he is the one after all, paying for the project.:D;):P
Regards, Eric |
If you decide to stick with LPG, than I recommend you convert to liquid injected LPG. Years ago I tried LPG (old type) on my stock 2.5-16v and was not pleased so I basically threw it out. As to the exhaust header you could buy one from turbobanditen.se ( http://turbobandit.com/shop/show_cat.asp?cat_id=96&head_id=91 ) or you could build a custom one.
P.S. I don't think this LPG system will be able to coupe with the boost levels your aiming at 20-25 psi. Evaporators/mixers have e hp/kw rating, do you know the rating of yours, you might need to upgrade or even add another depending on the power your aiming at ? |
Quote:
|
WOW :eek: thanks guys for all your feedback :cool:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
my only concern if you stay with lpg is getting consistant mixes accross all cylinders to make the sort of power/ run the boost you want,
it is all about even cylinder conditions accross all 6 cylinders, for example you dont want all the lpg going to some cylinders and not to others, this may be why the current system leaned out on some cylinders and not others, just speculating, as long as you can get even lpg and air mix to all cylinders it should be sweet tho! i like the difference in your project, very cool! |
Quote:
I just don't know why all the rust & corrosion through everything? I wonder if the previous owner didn't run coolant & just used water? |
that and that it prolly sat for weeks on end with water in the bores due to blown hg. and prolly water was in the manifold as well.
|
makes me sick. What a waste of a great engine.........coulda been great :(
|
Your car did have an ECU and the injection system was both mechanical and electronic but my guess is none of this is at play now because you have a mechanical LPG system providing the fuel now.
Maybe what 280 is referring to is the fact that a manifold that was designed to be a dry flow only manifold is now being forced to be a wet flow manifold. An intake charge with fuel in it is heavier and not able to make sharp turns as easily as air alone is. I'm assuming that the fuel and air are entering at the stock throttle body location. If that is the case, you have a horrible, very sharp, very sudden turn from that location into the center two cylinders. Probably not much of an issue in a dry flow scenario but a bad deal for a wet flow scenario. This might explain why those center two cylinders got in trouble. The rest of the cylinders have a little more room and time for the intake charge to make the turn into their runners. I'm not saying this problem can't be overcome, I'm just saying you may need to be aware of it so you can do something about it. If you can afford it, the LPG injection would do a better job, but I'm sure the current set up could be made to work decently as well. Regards, Eric |
At tghis stage I wouldn't know where to turn for fixing this dilemma with mixer. I could have a chat to this installer/tuner down here & take along the head I guess Monday. May even be able to call him this morn.
All this info is helping me do what I have to. Thanks again :) |
The problem is in the intake manifold..... take that to him too.
My fix would be to smooth and radius the entries into those center two runners from the plenum area and not touch the rest so that maybe they could all be evened out somewhat by helping the center runners catch back up to the flow of the other runners. Regards, Eric |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Yes, LPG won't fall out of suspension but it is still heavier than air alone is and is thus unable to make sharp turns as quickly and easily as air alone can. I still say that a person could smooth and radius the entries into those center two runners from the plenum area and not touch the rest of the runners so that maybe they could all be evened out somewhat by helping the center runners catch back up to the flow of the other runners. It's not a perfect solution but it's probably the best one short of doing the LPG injection thing. Regards, Eric |
After reading a pretty concise doc' on the 3 fuels of choice, gas, LPG or LPI, the injection is the superior one although obviously costly. This eliminates the Mixer AFR/tune probs totally by ECU (stand alone I would guess?) controlling each individual cylinder as in EFI :cool:
You guys have hinted to & imo right on the button concerning the Mixer being nothing but a pain in the ass. It is difficult to tune & requires re-tuning periodically. Is uneconomical. Unreliable. Damn dnagerous to engine from what I have read. Unless this LPG installer guru can suggest something wonderful to me. Eric, I would be really hesitant to simply try & fix the inlet mani. Sure it makes sense & may help but won't rectify the prob I don't think? Again, right now I believe the mixer shouldn't have been used in the first place the way it is set up. Running on straight LPG via mixer affords slow start ups & dangerous backfiring. EFI fixes this so you don't need dual fuel. Also, although these cars do orig' have an ECU, it is a very basic one that does little more than control cold-start really. Has no effect on AFR or timing etc from what I read also so, it can't be manipulated as in an EFI set up which utilises the ECU with proper complex sensors such as o2 exhaust sensor & knock sensor as with my 88' Mazda 323 Turbo. I will be discussing this LPG dilemma with installer hopefully Monday. Thanks for your help it is priceless! :cool: I will let you know how I go on Monday :) Here's the article btw: a get-to-the-point doc' on LPI: http://www.lpgli.com/features.html I've found this a good explanation of the 3 different fuel delivering methods: Not rocket science but a simple comparison of fuel delivery systems. Perhaps you guys know it in more detail? Along with your points, it helps my to decide whether it's worth the hassle to try with Mixer feed: Here are a few other informative articles/doc's with good explanations: http://www.go-lpg.co.uk/Turbo.html http://www.go-lpg.co.uk/which_conversion.html http://www.amershamauto.com/pages/how_lpg_works.htm |
you will be able to stick with the lpg mixer if you wanted, but would just have to run alot less hp, because getting towards the combustion conditions you are wanting to make high hp from high boost everything in the fuel mixes accross all cylinders and /ignition timing needs to be PERFECT.
i look foward to hearing what your lpg guy says, just ask him what he thinks the limit of the mixer is, you may find you will be happy with what it can produce, High hp numbers can start to become a large pain in the ass tho, as it starts to stress all the rest of the components in the drive line, so you will find once you get the engine sorted there will just be something else which needs to be changed aswell to cope, and so on and so on, plus with a road car with high hp it is really impractical like my car by the time you get into a higher gear like 3rd-4th to really let the power down you end up going so fast in such a short time its just rediculus, u end up with a track car really |
Quote:
Yes, these cars do originally have an ECU, and yes, it is a very basic system but it does control cold-starts by adding fuel, and controls AFRs and timing etc. the rest of the time and it does use an O2 sensor and it can be manipulated as in any other EFI set up that utilizes an ECU with proper sensors. Read the sticky on this very topic at the top of the page. (Or here: http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/mercedes-benz-performance-paddock/245997-tuning-cis.html) The only thing we are missing is a knock sensor but I'm fine with that as it's been shown many times how they will misread sounds that aren't even detonation and then pull timing when they don't need to. Thanks for the links! Regards, Eric |
I think I get the point with the manifold now. I'd never looked into this prior.
I just read this article concerning wet/dry manifolds. Bit basic but that's sometimes the best way to learn :o http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/gm-tech/manifold-injection.pdf Actually, this article made more sense: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrous edit: spoke with LPG gut this morning, he doesn't think the manifold has anything much to do with prob @ this stage. It is the fact LPG delivery is via only 1 convertor (vaporiser). It would have leaned out by not enough fuel. He has had success with mixers & says the mixing is all done within mixer ahead of throttle body so, it can't unmix, so to speak once in the inlet manifold. If he adds a 2nd convertor it should have plenty for 400rwhp. This is what I am chasing. The car will only be pushed hard occassionly but, due to all the bleedin' money/timer & bottom end parts used, it'd wanna make good figures for me to accept all this fun (not) I am taking engine to my builder also today. Cheers again guys! :cool: |
We never said it would un-mix, just that the intake charge is heavier when there is fuel in it so it can't make the sudden changes in direction that air alone can which is why the trouble was in the center two cylinders because their runners are the ones that have the sharpest, most sudden turn to make into their entries. The fact that the trouble is in those center two cylinders is the smoking gun.
Regards, Eric |
yea get a second vaporiser and a good tune on a dyno and she should be good to go!
:) |
maybe that's where the misunderstanding is Eric. The trouble was with no:3 & no:6 pistons. Not 3 & 4. I can understand the middle piston from what you are saying. If you hadn't of pointed that out, I would be none the wiser. But due to one of the end pistons suffering? It's too far from mixer to be the culprit.
Anyway, I'm on the right track & I owe it to you guys for your suggestions & quick clueing up. THANKS! |
Pulled engine out & it's @ rebuilders now.
Also, I spoke to Auto trans specialist today concerning modding the torque convertor into a stall convertor so to make it more drivable with the turbo. I'm dropping it off later in the week so he can pull it apart & see the changes he can make. He hasn't done a Merc before so may only be able to go mild say, 1750rpm? Still would be better than stock idle. I was wanting 2500 however. Oh well. However, he's not to keen on the stock auto. Although seller stated he beefed it up a while back, only receipt I have as for an auto trans purchase, not any work done. So he's probably full a crap like with the engine? :rolleyes: What I would appreciate knowing concerning auto is what is a good upgrade/swap for my engine? A V8 trans? Thanks guys! :cool: |
Quote:
|
Verdict from builder...........absolutely shagged! The engine has seen it's last mileage I'm afraid :( Block surface is so uneven no wonder head gasket kept blowing. Cylinder bores were buggered. Heaps of piston slack.
The light @ end of the tunnel though. I spoke to Merc' spares dealer/Importer here. The one I sourced the reco' head from. He has a 90' model 3.0L with just 100,000kms (60,000miles) on it! It's currently in a Merc being pulled apart fopr spares. He wanted $1500 for it (that's with taking back the reco head again) but under the condition he got to install it. $1000 for install including I guess injectors, lines, harness etc for petrol? Plus, cost of anything they found they had to replace would be extra. However, when I mentioned more clearly that he would be dealing with LPG & a turbo, & I didn't thing he would be able to get it sorted, he went quiet for couple of secs then said, you can have the engine for $1000 change over. Long motor without accessories :eek: How cool is that! :cool: Now I have a good low klm engine to start with properly & reliably. So rapped! I know EFI is the bees knees. Just the $$$$ & effort down here to get it. I'll talk to LPG guy again & see if he can source me some starter injector kit & then I'll be better informed. There's just other stuff I need to do for engineers cert' already. Will think on this thoroughly though over next few days. |
My advise then is to get the long block with the intake manifold, that way u get to install and LPG inj kit. What ever you chose to do, i say stay away from wet manifold setups (unless its for an extra injector setup like RBCY's turbo setup on this forum)
ie: it supplements the total amount of fuel, and not the primary way of serving the fuel needed. If u recall old turbo setups, back in the early days of turbo charging, most started with carb suck thru setups, and most just gave up on it back then for lack of control on proper fueling. |
Quote:
Quote:
Don't get me wrong :eek: I'm not comparing it to LPI set up but, it can work if a specialist does it using current technology. Also, using primer to alleviate cold start/back fire probs; seperate oil filter between sump oil line & turbo to protect turbo seal damage. This is extent this LPG guy goes to with installations. I just can't jusify the extra $5k needed for injection set up & Stand Alone EMS necessary bto set up injection system :( Also, car needs few other important things to pass engineers cert' here along with, ext system improvement; custom ext manifold I'm chasing & stall convertor mod, in order to significantly lower turbo lag as it has auto trans. Turbo compressor size/condition needs to be looked @. This & fact I need car back on road sooner than later. |
Don't forget the piston oil squirters and windage tray from a M104.
Regards, Eric |
Quote:
I'll ask him when he rings me next week for organising delivery. Btw, engine was pulled out of salvage Merc today :cool: Also, the turbo is OK. Got it looked over by an old-schooler who knows he's stuff. He suggests it will make a respectable 450hp. it has a bit of wear but not terminal @ this stage. Considering I am using stock donor engine now, I may keep boost to 10psi, maybe 12. Have it with low & high boost perhaps. Say 6psi & 10-12? I don't want to punish this engine that is such a blessing in disguise considering the fate of the other one. |
Looking for 400Eric
Quote:
I can not Pm you so Email me at mazda626lxa@yahoo.com please I need your help |
i have a spare set of oil squirters and oil windage tray, so if your guy cant supply you with them we could sort something out,
altho they do require some work and drilling into the oil gallery of the block to get to fit, it isnt hard, i had to do it to one of my m104 blocks that for some reason didnt come with oil squirters. |
Quote:
|
Dropped off Torque Convertor to specialist to have it stall converted. My aim was to have the auto back off until boost begins to really kick in say 2300rpm. He opened it while I waited & suggested he fabricate it to kick in @ approx 2500rpm. This way I have a window between 2300-3000rpm that should see good results. Difficult to get my head around exactly how this works. Although, I better understand the theory behind stall convertors now.
I'm hoping this will allow the slow auto to comply better with boost, especially due to LPG fueling the thing. |
I am very interested in how much you are been charged but the Auto specialist to pull apart the box and have it stall converted. While it is open is he looking at whether its been strengthened much?
|
Quote:
I'm just getting the convertor stall done. The auto is still in car. Seller said it was strengthened but I only have receipt for sale of box to him. It had the spline & tailshaft housing replaced. That's all I know I'm afraid. I noticed when I shifted from park to drive, it took a few too many seconds. I read though that using incorrect oil effects gear engadgement. Hope Merc oil fixes that problem but I'll get it serviced once engine is sorted & car is drivable. Oh, cost! Not cheap sorry to say. $500 for mod :o I feel it is a good move though considering power train set up. Btw, how's it up there? Most of my family are up there. QLD's my old haunt lol. Spent most of my life in Brissie & 4 years in GC :cool: |
Hey Guys. Work on the 300 has been mostly stagnant up til' now :( It took 3 engines before I got a replacement with decent, even compression. I am very reluctantly going with this 2nd hand engine as is (no re-build @ this point) as I just need car up & running & only to do short drives. If a rebuild is needed later. At least LPG/Turbo/IC/exhaust system set up will be all done & out of the way :cool:
Today I will be talking to workshop boss to finalise an ETA on dropping car off to him. At the moment I have the trans in getting a thorough check over by Merc specialist whilst car is still in my garage. I have removed cracked rear screen & there is next to no rust on the screen lip. Just a tiny bit needing only a grind & putty. There is no rust anywhere I have found after lifting carpets & checked boot :) Car is original red but looks as if it has had new boot lid & perhaps quarter panels replaced hence the re-spray. Unless it is normal to have dark-grey primer only on underside of boot & lid? Progress: :rolleyes: I have stripped back all lacquered timber interior parts & painted them with red duco touch up. Spent ages & used primer, paint & clear. Came up surprisingly well. I had to break up the total black leather/vinyl look the interior had. Way too much stark black :( Turbo has been dropped off to workshop all rebuilt & ready to go ;) This was done by an old-timer who knows his stuff & highly recommended Just a rehash of work to be done: a) Complete re-rout of Turbo set up which includes separate oil filter, high/low boost switch (mainly to lessen stress on engine when driving under normal conditions), full custom steampipe exhaust manifold to be made from scratch including an external wastegait to replace the rod-type & full 3" mandrel bend exhaust system right through from turbo flange to tail (nothing kept) b) Inlet manifold modified to better fit mixer c) Refurbish aluminium intercooler piping d) Complete rebuild of LPG routing. Twin Evaporators (convertors) with primer e) Dynotune .....and anything else that is needed to get it running reliably? If I get 300rwhp out of it. I'll be happy with that :cool: |
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:59 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2024 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website