MB M104.980

[Cauf61]

Hello


My name is Patrick and i live in Belgium.
I am informing myself over here as I want to "improve" my M104.980 NA engine. The first step would be controlling the ignition with a microsquirt and maybe later on the fuelling with a Frankencis adapter.
I think the most gain in torque is in upgrading the ignition and timing.
As I have some ECU experience it looks clear how to proceed but 1 thing is not clear for the moment.
As the MS has only 2 IGN outputs how do you control a 6cyl waster spark (3coils) setup ??
Or am i missing something here?


Anybody has a good MS file for this engine to start with ?


Grts
Patrick

[Brabus 3.6-24]

I have that engine to. And there's alot to consider when removing the original EZL module.
Igintion are adjusted for safety in transmition shifts from the overload protection switch and if the transmition slips. This featerues cannot be removed if your happy for your transmition.
And if the coolant gets to hot the ignition are also adjusted to have the engine cool down. At lest you have can data bus between the EZal and the CIS module. If this detects error it will like Vice correct both ignition and fuel.
If your engine also has ASR and the electronic actuator system. Then your even more chalanged as the can data bus also talks with that module. So you have to consider alot when removing these modules. Rpm are also raised when engaging IN drive to avoid engine stalling. Etc. It's not just about ignition when removing the old system. It's wired into alot other stuff and most don't realize it actual has can data bus


Sendt fra min LON-L29 med Tapatalk

[Cauf61]

Thx for the advice. It has no ASR. I will check if it has an CAN bus. I think that is from the next generation M104 but not sure. Of course with a (in my case) microsquirt ECU you must integrate all the "normal" sensors. Very easy on NA engine. Been there, done that. My first choice would be an AMG 3.4 engine, haha. But they unfindable and when you find one it is going to cost gold. It would be easier to DIY build an 3.4 AMG like engine. Not impossible. Grts Patrick

[Cauf61]

Indeed the EZL communicates with the KE Jetronic ECU and the transmission. I asked the question in the (very old !!) MS topic

[duxthe1]

I've got a few posts here about the mods I've done on my 104.980 You should check them out.

While not easy, it is possible to do some tuning of the CIS ECU. One of my tricks is to manipulate the air intake temp data before it is sent to the EZL to try to keep it in the more aggressive maps.

[Cauf61]

Originally Posted by duxthe1

I've got a few posts here about the mods I've done on my 104.980 You should check them out.

While not easy, it is possible to do some tuning of the CIS ECU. One of my tricks is to manipulate the air intake temp data before it is sent to the EZL to try to keep it in the more aggressive maps.

Thx I have read most of them. :-) Great info. Wouldn't it be more interesting to "play" with the ign timing ? The CIS is very old but is doing not a bad job I think. Other way to tune the fuelling is to manipulate the Lambda sensor data or the use the Frankencis system to adapt the EHA module. My goal it to improve the very poor torque of this engine.
Second option (and really not that complicated or crazy or expensive) is to buy a used spare 104.980 engine block and rebuild to 3.4 AMG specs like engine.

[duxthe1]

I have taken lambda sensor manipulation as far as anyone likely ever has on an MB. It can alter part load fueling but doesn't affect full load fueling, additionally it is only a reactive feedback input. These shortcomings are pretty much what drove me to tune the CIS ECU. Getting control of the enrichments allows proactive fueling. Here in the USA and especially California the modules are quite sparing with the enrichments.

I would love to have access to read/write the EZL's timing maps but that seems to be a pipe dream. With such a small bore and efficient combustion chamber these engines don't crave big advance numbers. I run a 4 degree advance flywheel, mainly because I live a mile above sea level.

[Cauf61]

Ok I have read your posts and you are very far in programming. I have done some a few years ago but you are way further. I had also an Ostrisch emulator and so on .....Congrats !
I live at sea level and over here we are at min EZL delay (2° I think). So you think there is not much to gain in the ignition department ?
I contacted also Frankencis but wil call him today to discuss what the system really can do in combination with a Microsquirt. Maybe it is better to give the MS control over ign and fuelling. I know there is also some CAN communication regarding the fuel relay module ( limp mode, fuel pomp control, EZL, aircond., ..... ) But maybe that is also programmable in the MS. I have done an ECU swap in the past and it really not that big of a thing. ( except mapping of course).

Still remains my second option to build an 3.4AMG copy with the normal EZL and CIS. Maybe in the end this is a cheaper and better option. More Hp and more torque. Over here you find many old used engines to "steal" the parts. You need a naked 104.980 engine for the base and a naked 300d engine for the crank. Sport Camshafts you can buy over here. Remains the 6 pistons.I have no idea yet what or how.

[Brabus 3.6-24]

Originally Posted by Cauf61

Ok I have read your posts and you are very far in programming. I have done some a few years ago but you are way further. I had also an Ostrisch emulator and so on .....Congrats !
I live at sea level and over here we are at min EZL delay (2° I think). So you think there is not much to gain in the ignition department ?
I contacted also Frankencis but wil call him today to discuss what the system really can do in combination with a Microsquirt. Maybe it is better to give the MS control over ign and fuelling. I know there is also some CAN communication regarding the fuel relay module ( limp mode, fuel pomp control, EZL, aircond., ..... ) But maybe that is also programmable in the MS. I have done an ECU swap in the past and it really not that big of a thing. ( except mapping of course).

Still remains my second option to build an 3.4AMG copy with the normal EZL and CIS. Maybe in the end this is a cheaper and better option. More Hp and more torque. Over here you find many old used engines to "steal" the parts. You need a naked 104.980 engine for the base and a naked 300d engine for the crank. Sport Camshafts you can buy over here. Remains the 6 pistons.I have no idea yet what or how.

3.4 does not use a crank out of the 300D but the W140 300SE M104.990
New pistons are required as well to adopt the longer stroke due to compresion.
Not very cheap to make.
What AMG does is only to make the full last ignition settings more agresive. But the crank does a great job of getting the low end power up.
Standart they do have alot torque but as these engines are made as high reving racing engines with the same pedegree as the 2.3-16 engines the torque is not made for low revs but closer together the maximum power at high revs. Hence why they deliver the same power as the newer and updated 104.992 3.2 engine with EFI that has the same power output Hp.


Sendt fra min SM-S918B med Tapatalk

[Rital24]

Hello Patrick,
I've installed Frankencis/Microsquirt on a M104980 but the engine is also supercharged.
I suppose that if you go for 3.4 rebuilt solution you need also EZL and CIS ecu from a genuine 3.4 due to different timing and fueling map.

I could say that frankencis is perfect for manage fuel if you want to maintain the originality of the car and is easy to install.
Timing with microsquirt is a compromise due to only 2 channels are available and, as mentioned, you loose the ignition control over transmission.
Anyway I manage the ignition in wasted spark setup without problems.
If you want to obtain something managing the ignition timing with microsquirt and stock ignition system you have to spend hours on a test bench for very low improvement.
If you want really fun go for turbo/super charger!

[Brabus 3.6-24]

Originally Posted by Rital24

Hello Patrick,
I've installed Frankencis/Microsquirt on a M104980 but the engine is also supercharged.
I suppose that if you go for 3.4 rebuilt solution you need also EZL and CIS ecu from a genuine 3.4 due to different timing and fueling map.

I could say that frankencis is perfect for manage fuel if you want to maintain the originality of the car and is easy to install.
Timing with microsquirt is a compromise due to only 2 channels are available and, as mentioned, you loose the ignition control over transmission.
Anyway I manage the ignition in wasted spark setup without problems.
If you want to obtain something managing the ignition timing with microsquirt and stock ignition system you have to spend hours on a test bench for very low improvement.
If you want really fun go for turbo/super charger!

3.4 does not have changed fuel KE jetronic box. The fuel is mechanical controled and by more air it will automatically draw more air in and then pull more on the air meter plate and open more for the injectors. Thats the beauty of not going EFI with these engines. The KE jetronic are so easy to work with nd there's absolutely no benifits of going EFI on these engines unless getting into a real headeach of getting g that system to rub well with all the other components such as ignition timing transmition overload control etc etc. So huge effort for getting nothing in return unless your going the turbo way


Sendt fra min SM-S918B med Tapatalk

[Rital24]

Originally Posted by Brabus 3.6-24

3.4 does not have changed fuel KE jetronic box. The fuel is mechanical controled and by more air it will automatically draw more air in and then pull more on the air meter plate and open more for the injectors. Thats the beauty of not going EFI with these engines. The KE jetronic are so easy to work with nd there's absolutely no benifits of going EFI on these engines unless getting into a real headeach of getting g that system to rub well with all the other components such as ignition timing transmition overload control etc etc. So huge effort for getting nothing in return unless your going the turbo way


Sendt fra min SM-S918B med Tapatalk

It's correct but we don't have to forget that ke jetronic unit contols the EHA actuator giving less or more current increasing or decreasing the fuel pressure to the injectors.
I'm not sure that 3.4 use the same KE Jetronic box as 104980.
We can suppose that the car should have stable idle and run well at partial open throttle but lean during acceleration or full open throttle.

[Frank Reiner]

Originally Posted by Rital24

I've installed Frankencis/Microsquirt on a M104980 but the engine is also supercharged.
I could say that frankencis is perfect for manage fuel if you want to maintain the originality of the car and is easy to install.

If memory serves correctly, the original FrankenCis manipulated the control pressure of the K-basic/K-lambda systems. Inasmuch as the KE system does not have variable control pressure, how does the FrankenCis change the mixture?

[Rital24]

Hello Frank,
I report back to you directly from Frankencis:

K-Jetronic basic - controls an electronic WUR block by targeting a control pressure map referencing Time/Temperature. The standard style EFI Load and RPM referenced fuel demand map is them mixed in on top to provide an enhanced version of the manifold pressure adjustment available in the standard mechanical WUR.

K-Jetronic Lambda - as above with the addition of a second map table controlling the Frequency Valve or equivalent. in this mode we also split the additional EFI style tuning features between the WUR and FV where appropriate.

KE-Jetronic - completely different to the first two, No WUR, No Frequency Valve, static control pressure and complete control of the differential pressure between the top and bottom chambers of the Fuel Distributor.


(The KE Jetronic system use the EHA actuator that is't installed on the other 2 old systems.)


Hope this helps

[Frank Reiner]

Originally Posted by Rital24

Hello Frank,
I report back to you directly from Frankencis:

KE-Jetronic - completely different to the first two, No WUR, No Frequency Valve, static control pressure and complete control of the differential pressure between the top and bottom chambers of the Fuel Distributor.

"Complete control" - By what means? What hardware is involved?

From your signature Mr. Rital24:
Mercedes 300 CE 24v 199 black
Rotrex C30/94 SC

FrankenCis fuel contol
stock ignition system controlled by Microsquirt

Dualfuel Gas/Lpg
722.5 transmission

How did you do it?