Would it be possible to make a 3.6L M104 KE-Jetronic?

[ps2cho]

Since there was a 3.0 24V KE-Jet, would it be possible to do this?

Is there a difference between the 12V KE-Jet and 24V KE-Jet?
Are there any differences block/head between the 3.0L M104 and 2.8/3.2L M104 excluding the obvious displacement.

Just trying to see if it would be an easy swap for my M103 if I could find a junk 104, rebuild it, then simply remove the engine and swap it. Swapping the ignition + fuel system over sounds like a potential nightmare...

I looked into the 3.6L M103, but have been dissuaded based on the information that it has had a lot of issues and the longevity is very poor.

[taint]

yes its possible, you can bolt the CIS m104 head onto a HFM 3.6 m104, you have to change the chain guides to the version used on the CIS m104 engine. when i built my 3.2 CIS engine i got the lower block from a HFM 3.2l m104 and put on CIS m104 head and found i had to change the chain guides. its pretty easy to be honest.

[tjts1]

This sounds like a job for



Taint: reading through project gaby. Great stuff. Where did you get the turbo manifolds?
cheers
Justin

[JayRash]

yes u can but u have to use the old 24V and not the newer M104 heads.

Expect to make some 260+ hp from the setup
maybe using the intake cam shaft of the AMG wil help up the power close to the 280 range

[taint]

Originally Posted by tjts1

This sounds like a job for



Taint: reading through project gaby. Great stuff. Where did you get the turbo manifolds?
cheers
Justin

thanx mate, the manifolds are from a turbo technics kit.

[ps2cho]

Originally Posted by taint

yes its possible, you can bolt the CIS m104 head onto a HFM 3.6 m104, you have to change the chain guides to the version used on the CIS m104 engine. when i built my 3.2 CIS engine i got the lower block from a HFM 3.2l m104 and put on CIS m104 head and found i had to change the chain guides. its pretty easy to be honest.

Anything else or was that pretty much it? Intake/exhaust manifold different?

How is the engine mount points? Any changes needed or does it bolt right up?

Does the 722.3 have any extra ability to handle power better than a 722.4 has?

[MAG58]

Originally Posted by ps2cho

Anything else or was that pretty much it? Intake/exhaust manifold different?

Yes, they're different. That would be why you have to run a CIS head, because the CIS intake manifold is different. The Water pump is also different. It's an M103 part

Originally Posted by ps2cho

How is the engine mount points? Any changes needed or does it bolt right up?

It bolts up All M103's and M104's have the same mounting points to the chassis, no exceptions. Only differences between the motors for your purposes are the pan/pump and aluminum wings.

Originally Posted by ps2cho

Does the 722.3 have any extra ability to handle power better than a 722.4 has?

yes


I'm going to tell you this now, you're going to go through a bunch of work and expend a large quantity of money to buy essentially two motors. You're still going to have to splice the wiring harness together and you're going to end up with a motor running an archaic system that you're still going to have to tune for a motor with 600cc's more displacement.
Your call. I'm not sure why so many people are afraid of wiring. It isn't bad if you think through it and take your time.

[MagnumPI]

And with Megasquirt getting better with every new update, and yet not really any more expensive, why not? MSIII just come out. AND at DIY autotune, they are always developing new plug and play systems. Enough Mercedes folk show interest, maybe there's a solution in that direction. They're also developing a dedicated "VVT" controller unit with continuous closed loop, great for the 24V and M111s. There are even plenty of wiring specialists that could make a dedicated harness if it's that big a deal, and still be easier and cheaper. Whatever, it'll be cool to see done in any case. Good luck and all that.

[taint]

Originally Posted by ps2cho

Anything else or was that pretty much it? Intake/exhaust manifold different?

How is the engine mount points? Any changes needed or does it bolt right up?

Does the 722.3 have any extra ability to handle power better than a 722.4 has?

i assume you currently have a m103 300e. if thats the case then you can use the current downpipe from the 300e, like MAG58 said the mounting points are the same, the gearbox will be fine and I have to disagree on MAG58 regarding the wiring if you currently have a m103 engine the M104 24v CIS engine can be run using the existing wiring loom in the 300e the only downside to using the 300e 12v wiring is you wont get the timing advance that kicks in at about 4000 revs, but you could easily deal with that using an rpm switch or just wire it to the full throttle switch under the gas pedal, but he is on the money regarding the lack of benefits when it comes having to buy the two engines for 600cc increase. Just get a donor car c36 and deal with the wiring its really not that hard, just annoying.

[MAG58]

I'm sure you could run the CIS from the M103, but you're looking at a set of ignition curves and fuel requirments from an engine that makes less power with a lower power band and (most importantly) a much lower BEP and CR. CIS is only so tunable and I feel that especially if you increased displacement along with adding cams/head flow/valves/CR, the gain really wouldn't be that great. You'd be able probably get more gains for less on an M103 at that rate.

Just my 0.02.

[JayRash]

in case u still go thru with it, get fuel head disp ending with P/N 44, it will get the car tuned to like 90%+ by just bolting it on. and this head is good for 300hp. get an RPM WINDOW switch to deal with the cam advance for u have to activate it at 2000rpm and switch it off at 5000rpm, but u have to get CIS Minfold and airmass of the EURO 3.0-24 head for things to bolt properly and make some power.
with a good tune and amg intake cam u can make 280hp with seriously sweet top end pwr. Brabus 3.6 24v CIS made 280hp. oh and try and use the newer oil pan and u might need the oil jets for piston cooling. But i gues u will be getting a complete 3.6 and just swappin to the older head so u will have all those i guess.

[ps2cho]

Thanks for the info guys. I'll begin keeping my eyes open for everything I need and begin getting a collection going

280HP would be so much fun! On a cold night my 2.6 is still pretty fun to drive. Can't imagine with almost twice the horsepower!

[amosfella]

Why not just get an engine from a C36 AMG and jam it in??

[taint]

Originally Posted by MAG58

I'm sure you could run the CIS from the M103, but you're looking at a set of ignition curves and fuel requirments from an engine that makes less power with a lower power band and (most importantly) a much lower BEP and CR. CIS is only so tunable and I feel that especially if you increased displacement along with adding cams/head flow/valves/CR, the gain really wouldn't be that great. You'd be able probably get more gains for less on an M103 at that rate.

Just my 0.02.

i have had all the factory m103 and m104 engines in my 190 except for the amg versions. i ran my m104 cis with 3.2l lower half from hfm m104 using the 2.6 wiring loom and 300e ecu and the power level was no different when i swithced to a full HFM setup to be honest (i did get fuel economy and reliability) she was quicker running the CIS setup because of the higher rev limit and i reckon. but without a shadow of doubt its quicker then a 3.0l M103.

[pifcat2]

don't know why you think the 3.6L is unreliable, mine has over 100k with 0 problems. Of course the RT folks know more than the average builder.

Be wary of the 3.0 M104 CIS hybrid in terms of parts availability because they were only built 2 years before they were replaced by the more common 3.2L M104 engine. I'm not sure if you'll need it but there is also a rare / expensive EZL involved. I was going to swap my 3.6L M103 in to my '90 coupe because it still used CIS.