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relays, continued...
What is the exact # of relays I will need, please?
Again, I want to install relays to activate low beams, high-beams, and pencil-beams. I really wish somebody could put together a kit!!! |
(6) Six relays if you have one for each light (low, high, pencil) (the most redundancy);
(4) Four if you want to control Left & Right, low & high, individually and no pencil beam; (3) Three if you're willing to let one relay (single point of failure) control both Left & Right lights of low, high, and pencil; (2) Two if you only want to control Left & Right low and high; You could do fogs in either one or two relays as well. Personally, I like one relay for each functional set of lights, e.g. one for low; one for high; one for pencil; and one for fogs. Check out Dan's diagram, taken from: http://lighting.mbz.org/tech/relays/relays.html :-) neil 1988 360TE AMG 1993 500E http://lighting.mbz.org/.images/relaycircuit.gif |
THANK YOU, NEIL!
:D
What is the approximate price per relay, please? |
The schematic above shows how the BergWerks kit would be wired, with only 2 relays - one for low beam, one for high beam (no fogs or pencils). This setup requires wires crossing the radiator area (above or below), which I wanted to avoid, and I also wanted one relay per side per beam (four total: left high, left low, right high, right low).
For the pencil beams, you can either add one or two more relays (depends if you want one per side one for both), OR just feed the pencil beam H3 in parallel off the high beam relay. Some relays have dual output blades for this exact purpose. That's what I did for the sake of simplicity, and electrically it can handle the current with no problems. I didn't want yet *another* relay to try & mount, it's hard enough to find a good spot for 2 per side! :D Note that for the fog lights in the bumper, you WILL need one (or two) more relays specifically for the fog circuit. Relays for the fogs, IMO, is not really necessary unless you use your fog lights often & want/need more light from them. I'd skip them for now & do it later if you want. Scott - will you be doing a DIY install, or having a local shop install the relays & wiring? Oh, and Dan can probably assemble a custom kit for you with all the parts needed. I would like to make a 124-specific kit one of these days with detailed instructions but I'm really short on time right now, unfortunately.... :( :( |
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Ideally, I would like to drop off a kit-of-parts (with an instruction-sheet) and say "please make this happen" to my tech. |
Daniel Stern's reply
On Tue, 10 Jun 2003, Scott M. Shell wrote:
> My name is Scott M. Shell and I am a Mercedes-Benz 500E fanatic! My car's website is located at: http://www.nemonis.net Cool stuff! Just spent a few minutes mousing around your (car's) site. > I want to upgrade my vehicle's lighting system; I currently run European-spec E-code headlamps (1-piece). Good start. Which ones? Not as simple to answer as it may seem -- Can you send me a close-up view of the headlamp portion of one of the lenses, with the lamps off? > 1) I want to install headlamp relays (one per light?) using 10-ga. wire along with Hella ceramic hi-temp H4 connectors. Easy. Those Hella connectors aren't ceramic, per se, they're phenolic, but they are what you're after: They take 10ga wire, have phosphor-bronze low-resistance contacts and will take whatever heat you care to apply to them. Relays, also no problem. You can run one relay per filament if you like, but you can also run one relay per beam, since I furnish Bosch 40A relays with dual output terminals. > 2) I want to upgrade my main bulbs to OSRAM or Narva Rallye H4 bulbs (130/100). Always in stock. Osram doesn't make 130/100, Narva does, $19/ea. > 3) I want to upgrade my H3 pencil-beams to relays + 10-ga. wire and 80W or 100W bulbs. Careful here. That's a very small reflector -- you won't *necessarily* heatcrack your lens, but you will definitely increase the odds of it happening, and that is a *very* expensive lens. > 4) I plan to upgrade my alternator to a Mercedes-Benz S-Class (150-Amp) version in August, using 2-ga. wire from the alternator to the battery. Good... > 5) I want to install relays to activate low beams, high-beams, and pencil-beams. Yep. Not hard. > 6) I do NOT want to run wiring under/in front of the radiator area, if at all possible! Not necessary to do so. > Are you able to assemble a kit-of-parts for me, please, to meet my goals? If so, what will said kit cost, please? Surely. Indicate whether you want one-relay-per-filament or one-relay-per-beam. Also indicate if the car is equipped with a lamp outage module, and indicate if it's still equipped with the US 9004 bulb sockets somewhere in the system. > Please visit the following thread for an entire history of this subject (it is only a few pages in length). I will do so. Be advised there is an article floating around out there that advises wiring the lamps such that the lows stay on with the highs. No! Don't! Very dangerous! Bulb explosion hazard, and NOT what the optics were meant for! - DS |
continued...
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Stern Lighting [mailto:dastern@vrx.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 2:35 PM To: Scott M. Shell On Tue, 10 Jun 2003, Scott M. Shell wrote: > Attached, please find close-up images of the headlamp portion of one of my BOSCH lenses, with the lamps off. Good, got it. > Do I already have phenolic connectors? No, but you do have unacceptably thin-gauge wiring on the inside of your headlamp units. This isn't difficult to fix. > I would prefer to run one relay per beam, to simplify my installation; hence, I prefer to use Bosch 40A relays with dual output terminals. Please include (in your kit quote) 4 Navra 130/100 bulbs. Not a problem. > Will your kit include detailed installation instructions for the layman? They are here: http://lighting.mbz.org/tech/relays/relays.html > My 500E is, indeed, equipped with a lamp outage module It will cry wolf upon the installation of the relays. If it works via a single light bulb on the instrument cluster, you may wish to remove this bulb. Otherwise, you'll have to have the module recalibrated to look at the relays. I don't know if this is worth the hassle and expense, but if you find that it is so, I can refer you to such a service. > provisioning of US-spec 9004 bulb-sockets, how can I determine this? Look for a grey or bright blue plastic 3-wire connector, about 30mm by about 25mm, and having a half-moon shape when viewed straight on, near the headlamps. It may be that these were chopped off when the European lamps were installed. If so, that will cost-reduce the relay kit. Assuming no 9004 sockets are present: relay package = low beam + high beam + auxiliary lamps (AKA "driving lamps" or "pencil beams") = $77.00. Narva 130/100W bulbs are $19.00 each. > Do you require more images? No, but you may be interested in the high-output standard-wattage bulbs we have for your reversing lamps, brake lamps, rear turn signals and, if you're running single-filament sockets in those European clear front corners, magic bulbs that appear chrome (invisible) when off, but flash legally amber... - DS |
conclusion
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Stern Lighting [mailto:dastern@vrx.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 2:52 PM To: Scott M. Shell On Tue, 10 Jun 2003, Scott M. Shell wrote: > I am almost 100% certain that they are NOT there. You're probably right. We'll proceed as if not, so prices as in former e-mail. > Also, do you sell the (heat-shrink/heat-resistant shielded) 10-ga. wire I will need? No. Purchase it locally. Standard ordinary Belden wire from your local NAPA is fine; if you want the best of the best, specially order a few spools of Belden "XL-DUR" wire, which is insulated with irradiated crosslynked polyethylene that'll stay in the flame of a gas stove for 15 seconds before beginning to show any stress. High-output bulbs for non-headlamp applications? - DS |
how to order
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Stern Lighting [mailto:dastern@vrx.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 2:56 PM To: Scott M. Shell On Tue, 10 Jun 2003, Scott M. Shell wrote: > Thank you VERY much! At what number may I call you to place my order, please? 416-766-2327 > I already have 1 other interested party (more will follow, I am certain). If you'd like to place a group order and save on shipping, that's also doable. - DS |
Good stuff from Dan! A few comments:
1- The 9004 connectors are an internal part of the old DOT lamps. You have Euro lights, so the 9004 connectors are GONE. Not an issue. Here's one of many reasons why 9004's suck: http://www.meimann.com/images/mercedes/W124_headlights/9004_conn_melted.jpg 2- You want one relay per filament on the H4's (4 relays total). The pencil beam filament can be tapped off the high beam relay on each side, or if you really want those separate, you'll need 6 relays total (not really necessary IMO). 3- Dan warned about using high-power H3 bulbs. FWIW, I have been using cheap Taiwan 100w H3 bulbs with no problems - yet. It's possible the cracking issue may only apply to cheap (non Hella/Bosch) lamp assemblies? When those burn out I'm getting good Philips/Osram H3's to replace them. 4- The headlamp assemblies do have small internal wires (16ga, I think). They are adequate for large bulbs due to the VERY short length of wire involved, but not optimum. I want to re-wire mine with 12ga inside the lamp but haven't had time. The alternative is to bypass that wiring entirely, cut a hole in the rear cover plate of your lamps, and run the wires directly to the bulbs. This is the best electrically but I personally preferred not to do this. 5- The bulb-out idiot light will light up after the relay conversion. I don't like disabling it, since then you don't know when brake lights or marker lamps fail. Fortunately, BergWerks sells a modified bulb-out module (N7 in your fuse box area) that cures this. It's about $80 with exchange and works GREAT. They open up the stock unit and cut a few traces on the PCA, so it thinks the headlight bulbs are always OK. You'll know when a bulb blows, trust me. I have this on my car and love it. :) 6- You only need two H4 bulbs, the pencils use H3's, I assume you wanted four to have a couple spares. The average life per 130/100 bulb is somewhere around 100 hours, which is very short compared to most "normal" bulbs. After you complete the upgrade, I'm sure you'll feel this is a worthwhile tradeoff (spending $40 on bulbs regularly in exchange for near-daylight at midnight!) |
Scott- itemize everything in the "kit" and I'll sign-up for at least two (2) kits covering low, high, and pencil beams, for a total of six (6) relays per kit.
:-) neil 1988 360TE AMG 1993 500E |
stand by
Neil,
I am awaiting your requested data, myself, as of this writing. My total price (I added almost every other bulb on the car) was around $228.00 USD. |
Don't forget to add the BergWerks bulb-out module to your shopping list. I tried to get a direct URL but their website appears to be locked up right now, times out without connecting (d'oh!). This is the only item Dan can't supply (AFAIK).
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thanks, Dave
Please clarify:
Can I perform the BergWerks mod, myself? If not, what do I need to remove and send to Carl? RSVP |
Funny how there's never an easy answer. :D There are several versions of the bulb-out module. I got a newer one from BergWerks in exchange for my early version. They have toally different PCA's. I took photos of the mod on the newer version and posted them here (scroll down to "bulbout...") :
http://www.meimann.com/images/mercedes/W124_headlights/ If your module PCA's look EXACTLY like those photos, and you feel comfy making the cuts, you can attempt the mod yourself. If you mess up you'll need a fresh one from the boneyard to replace it. If your module is different than above, you'll need to get it from BergWerks. If they have one on the shelf, they'll send it to you and credit you when they get your old one back. If not, you'll need to send yours in (yuck). I have been wanting to experiment on the older style module, and bought one off eBay to play with, but haven't done so yet. They are totally different and I'm not quite sure what traces to cut on the old module. A 500E is a pretty new generation W124 so yours may be the new type as in my photos above. The bulb-out (N7) module is located in the rear half of the fuse box with the other relays. There are several Phillips screws to remove to access it. The N7 module is the biggest thing in there, you can't miss it. |
: )
Thanks, Dave!
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itemized list / kit of parts for W124 lighting upgrade project
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Stern Lighting [mailto:dastern@vrx.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 4:37 PM To: Scott M. Shell - QTY = 1 / description: relay package for high beams + low-beams + driving lights: $77.00/each - QTY = 2 / description: Narva 130/100W H4 bulbs @ $19.00 each - QTY = 2 / description: Narva 796 bulbs for reverse lamps @ $7.70/each - QTY = 2 / description: silver when off, amber when on front corner turn-signal bulbs @ $7.80/each - QTY = 6 / description: C5W Xenon replacements for puddle-lights @ $5.70/each - QTY = 2 / description: 3497 bulbs for brake lamps @ $4.90/each TO ORDER, E-MAIL DANIEL STERN AT: dastern@vrx.net |
hotter pencil-beams
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Stern Lighting [mailto:dastern@vrx.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 10:32 AM To: Scott M. Shell Of course, if you want to be able to run hotter pencil beams... http://www.morette.com/htm/124.htm |
Too bad their links don't work. IMHO, they don't work well with the lines of the car.
However, if you're going to do an HID conversion, perhaps the housing can take an engineered from the beginning HID lamp assembly. :-) neil 1988 360TE AMG 1993 500E |
Haha, it makes the front look like an old W123! :)http://www.morette.com/Morette/Merce...0W124%2002.JPG
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FOR SALE
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run, why did you throw in the towel on your xenon project?? Install the xenon in your headlights and fog lights. That'll light up a stadium.
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Per this entire thread (see above), I am opting to upgrade my lighting wiring and existing halogen setup.
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Looks like I am getting in on this thread a little late. Some of you may already have read my experiences with lighting on my W201. Here are the conclusions I have come to.
A upgrade to euro lights is a must. Upgrading the wattage/kelvin rating of the halogen bulbs increases light output and changes color (depending upon what type of bulb and kelvin rating). I tested both Piaa Superwhites and Sylvania Silverstars. For the money the Sylvania Silverstars were the better choice. Now onto HID's. This is a doable project but not a plug and play install. My project consisted of using factory BMW Hella ballasts and Philips D2R burners (4100k). I found the Philips burners to have a yellow hue to them and replaced these with a Osram D2S 4100k burner, light blue on initial start and then bright white after a couple of minutes. Conclusion, Osram has better light output no yellow hue. No noticeable difference between the D2s and D2R, although the D2S is a bit more tricky to modify to fit the H4 socket. Now, on the topic of modifing the burners, the H4 mounting ring needs to be epoxied onto the burner, not superglue or other junk glues, a good two part epoxy is the only thing that is going to work. Light output is incredible, although like mentioned in other posts, light output is all over the place, way too much light for the reflector of the euro headlights. This is where you need to get innovative at controlling the light output. On my euro headlights, there is a metal bulb protector that looks sort of like a tower with no top on it. I capped off the end of this tower and wrapped the top half of the tower with foil, this cut down on the amount of light being reflected up into the air (and blinding on coming traffic). Light distribution to the sides of the road are still powerfull and there are only some minor strands of light that seem not to be focused (small price to pay for HID's in reflector housings). The end result is very positive, light output is greatly increased, on coming traffic is not blinding and my vision at night is great improved. I would do this again (assuming a factory HID option is not available, otherwise I would go witht he factory HID assembly) Total cost for all my parts was about $250, not including the 2nd set of burners I picked up. I say do, you won't be happy with a upgraded halogen update, I know. |
2Phast, I had the same problem with my philips bulbs being too yellowish. The way to "fix" it was to have my lights on all the time,even during the day. The philips(4100K) bulbs have a "burn in" period of about 50-100 hours. After that time, the bulbs shine a whitish blue(4300-4350K). But hey, sell them on ebay or keep them as a spare set. Not likely seeing that they last approx. 2000 hours!
Run needs to get on ebay and get some Xenon in that 500E. |
2 phast, I fixed my glare using the metal connectors from an old set of plug wires.
I split the connector in two pieces. Installed one half under a bulb, and the other half under the other bulb. I kept it in place with some JB weld. It sure beats foil. |
b-xenon
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Is that Generation 4 Xenon ? Thats bi-xenon? Where are the leveling motors to raise the beam?? Is that OEM or a kit you purchased?
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Quote:
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FYI, with upgraded wiring and over-wattage halogens, you can approach (or exceed) the lumens output compared to HID. The color temp will still be different, and the halogens will suck WAY more power, but the geometry will be correct. Here's some numbers from Dan's site:
H3, 55w = 1290 lumens H3, 100w = 2300 lumens H3, 130w = 3650 lumens H4, 60/55w = 1650/1000 lumens H4, 100/80w = 2600/1500 lumens H4, 130/90w = 3550/1820 lumens D2S, 35w = 3200 lumens D2R, 35w = 2800 lumens The HID has the advantage on low beam, if you can control the light with the reflector as Mike and Rik did. But on high beam, the overwatt halogens should be brighter. The HID is also nice because you don't need to run heavy wires around. But I'm with Scott, I'd prefer halogens, until some creative person designs a projector HID lamp assembly for the 124 chassis (like THAT will happen.) :D :D Regards, |
The only way that we'll ever get projectors in the w-124 is if someone manufacturs a CLEAR glass headlight. I planned on adding projectors into my Euro's but hit a brick wall after I realized that the glass is etched in order to project the light a certain way. If I get ahold of a CLEAR glass headlight, I will be the first to fit my w124 with projectors.
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clearly
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and see what the cost/minumum production run would be. I'll buy a pair, if they're (both, together) under $1000 USD. If the Big Boys say no, ask a local (scientific) glass company to quote the same job. You never know... until you know. |
Nice solution Mike, may have to dig up some old OEM spark plug cables and give it a try, although the way the lenses are you really can not tell I have foil over the "towers". Thanks for the info on the Philips burners, already sold them. I will remember the burn in period for future reference.
From what I remember, running 80 watt Piaa superwhites, even with the high beams on, they were not as bright as the HID's. Were talking "landing light" brightness. |
2phast, the Xenon has been the best mod I've done so far! Halogen Is yellow and ugly, even with "silverstar" or any blue bulb. Any way you cut it, its still halogen. Xenon gives way better light. A lot of streetlights in Florida have upgraded Xenon bulbs.
Run, in due time, you will see the light. (no pun intended) |
1 Attachment(s)
Scott, clear glass headlights would look great! They already make the clear glass turn signals, so why not the headlights? :cool:
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The markers are definitely plastic. We'd want glass headlamp lenses, although a top-quality plastic lens might work - I'm not sure.
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Actually run, the plastic lenses do not burn, look at a lot of old fords. Their lenses were plastic and fogged up like hell.
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this is not your father's Oldsmobile
Yes, but aren't we talking about HIDs?
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oh yeah! well bak to HID's
My next "Bi-Xenon" mod is to put a second set of Xenons into my fog light spot, and somehow wire it to turn on in place of my brights. The sad thing is thet the 300E doest have fogs in the bumper. Well I am still planning on doing it though. |
Haha, the glass marker lights originates from poor babelfish translations of German. Trust me, there all plastic.
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there is no such thing as "bixenon" in any reflector set up. Having HID in your low beams and in your fog lights is NOT "bixenon." There are no bixenon specific ballasts either.
The only way to put a real Bixenon Projector to work is like this: http://website.pcextreme.nl/imageupl...niimag0005.jpg You have to get a bixenon projector off something like a BMW 3 series or E60 5 series. Not to mention having to make a clear polycarbonate lens. |
Photoshop?
That would be the solution but is that real or a photoshop? I have bought Xenon HID sets with the moving aperature inside to give you a bi-zenon effect but as pointed out the beam is quite scattered and because of the movement caused by the sleeve reliability is an issue. The best product so far is a combination Low beam D2r bulb and a h7 bulb mounted on top. No moving parts = better reliability. I'll try to post the pictures of the bulbs and what it looks like on my car. FYI I have the euro spec headlight H4 and it cost me $446 plus shipping. Man, I hope that's not a photoshop cause I want!
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its real. Met the guy over at HIDforum.com.....unfortunately the forum got hacked so its down for now. Retrofitting a projector is relatively simple. The tricky part was the polycarbonate lens...but from what the owner and I were talking about, the lens was attached in a very "ghetto fashion." Before the forum went down the there was much talk about using new optically clear epoxies to "remove" (ie. fill in) the texture of the factory lens thus leaving one with a clear glass "factory" lens. I'm going to be replacing the lenses on my '94 E420 because of large rock chips. After I remove them I am going to play with the epoxy idea and see how well it works. If it does...........then bi-xenon projectors here I come! HERE are is a place where one can get whatever projector you want. |
Bi-xenon projectors
I have a set of bi-xenon projectors in my w126 euro headlights. My setup came from a 2002 audi a6. I currently don't have the high beams wired anymore because i couldn't get them wired the way I wanted. Anyway having the glass fluted lense is definently a disadvantage when it comes to hids. It destroys the cut off step ___/, but I still have a sharp cut off that looks like this ____. Word to the wise though, if you are going to retro projectors in your headlights, PAY somebody to do it. The former hidforum (R.I.P.) and the current hidplanet are great sources of information on xenon lights. You can learn so much. So visit hidplanet to learn more about hids than you may have ever wanted to know.
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