'02 G500 4-ETS function

[G-Man]

I finally got around to trying out the traction control system fitted to my (wifes) G500. The venue is my G / Mog test track. I have a hill that offers big holes that are staggered and alternate sides. This puts two diagonally opposed tires in the air several times throughout the climb, meaning normal open differential vehicles can not make it.

I took the G out and selected low range as I normally would but did not select any of the three lockers. The first section drops the pass side front tire into a hole and lifts the drivers rear as you proceed. It is my standard practice to do this slowly, the holes are at least 3 feet deep and about 4ft square:p As soon as the rear tire lifted it began to spin and the truck stopped. I gassed it a little thinking I may not have reached the ETS threshold. Nothing more than more spinning I backed out, put the truck back into high range on the off chance low disables the system. I tried the exact same drill in high. I had the exact same result, except the tire spun faster.

I knew the system was working. Durning the last snow I saw the warning light flashing and could feel the brakes working to find traction. I tested it again in the dirt lot around the track. No problem, the 5L V8 makes it easy to test with wheelspin The light flashed and the brakes worked away at the spinning tires.

I went back to the track. This time I thought I would try to take it at more of a roll than a crawl. The thinking was that maybe the computer needs to see the other tires turning as a reference before activating. Same story the rear tire lifted and spun, no warning light, no braking action, no forward progress. The system appears to work just fine in the snow and loose dirt. There are no fault codes stored.

I resorted to reading the owners manual. It stated that the system is employed at speeds from 0-37mph in high and low range. It goes on the describe the ETS functioning we have hashed through repeatedly on this forum. The kicker is that it didn't work worth a darn in the real world. I take that back, it works in the real world ON THE ROAD.

Tell me that the ML has more going for it off-road than this system. So far I am unimpressed.

[Gilly]

It appears obvious to me that there is some fault in the system even though no fault codes are stored.

Gilly

[G-Man]

"It appears obvious to me that there is some fault in the system even though no fault codes are stored."

It would seem so wouldn't it. I can just imagine what you are thinking about this post Gilly. It is however truthful and completely factual. I wrote it up just as I tried it. The system does in fact function just fine on flat ground. The warning triangle appears and the brakes operate to control wheelspin. When the wheel began to spin on the track there was no warning or intervention. I have heard many stories about this system setting fault codes on the new G's. Wouldn't it make more sense that it would default on the code setting side rather than fail and not set any codes? The truck had just returned from the dealer that day as well. They had it hooked up to a diagnostic computer. Even if I see no codes on the display, wouldn't they show up when the dealer accesses the computer?

What should I do? Take it to the dealer and tell them it works fine until I get it all bent out of shape on an off-road abstacle?

[Gilly]

Yes, if 2 opposing wheels are in the air and they do not lock up via ETS and transfer to the wheels with contact, that is a system fault, it shouldn't do that. Yes, that's what I would tell the dealer. The vehicle is designed to handle this situation.
Don't worry about how I perceive your post. If I think you're lying, or saying something impossible, I'll say it. It is possible to have a "no fault code" problem, and if it is a "no fault code" problem, then NO the technician will have no fault codes to retrieve. The storage of fault codes has never been intended to be the answer to all problems, it only makes the job easier. If there are no fault codes, the problem gets harder.

Gilly

[ML320Truck]

I am writing this in the fear of getting flamed. I don’t see the point of comparing G vs. M. As a ML 320 owner, I know G is superior to M in the off-road arena and to that respect, G might be the best a normal consumer can buy in the States.

BUT, what the hell! Can a G compare with a Caterpillar? Or compare 0-60 with a ML320 (10/9 according to MBUSA)? What’s the point? Does your G ever run ON-ROAD? I don’t want to start anything, but just trying too this kind of post is childish. And funny part for this thread is that a G owner does not know how a particular technology (ETS), built-in the G by MB, should behave.

[Gilly]

Well, as most of us here know, flaming doesn't go very far around here anyways, no matter how "restrictive" it seems to make this forum, so lets try to not go down that bumpy road.
I believe g-man knows how it's supposed to react in just the ETS mode, he just can't believe it is apparently totally inoperative when pushed to it's limit, ie 2 opposing wheels with contact, 2 opposing wheels without contact, and has no stored trouble codes. He furthermore seems to think that reporting this problem will result in something terrible like the cancellation of his warranty or something. These vehicle are designed to operate under these conditions or they wouldn't be showing the general public these capablities. To enter one in an actual "race or sporting event" MAY repeat MAY affect the warranty, but not the actual act of just off-road driving.
I don't think the thread has started out childish. If it strays too far from the technical aspects of off-road driving, then it begins to cross a line with what I consider acceptable to this forum. Especially flaming, shouting, and the slinging of mud.
I don't think anyone here really thinks the ML is in the same class as a G wagen. No matter what you drive, someone can always build a better mousetrap (or modify the same mousetrap to exceed the capablities of a stock one), and it can get out of hand to start comparing the vehicles in this forum to another type of vehicle such as a Caterpillar. If I were going offroad, as far as the vehicles that are the topic of this forum, hands down I would pick neither the ML or the G, it would be a MOG!

Gilly

[G-Man]

The intention was not to compare the two trucks. The intent was to explore the usefulness of the 4 ETS system. It is no secret that I am a skeptic when it comes to trusting such a system in off-road situations. The mention of the ML was a bit of a poke:p at the folks who think 4 ETS is the equal of, or superior to, a set of mechanical differential locks. The reason I tried this test was to see for myself how well it works. I am open minded enough to admit it, if indeed the system proves effective when applied to my needs. So far I do not see any merits. There may be a problem with the system on my truck. When I get some time again I will test it a little more. If it still does not function as advertised I will have the dealer look at it. And yes, I know exactly how it is supposed to behave. It is not working as advertised, that is what we are exploring here.

Gilly, I am not concerned that the dealer will deny any warranty coverage based on how I use the truck. I am a little curious to see how they would replicate the problem. This is the kind of thing I would like to be involved in. I have a good relationship with the shop foreman at the dealer. The problem is, the dealer is 150 miles from home.

I also never reached the point where I had two wheels off of the ground. I managed to get far enough to raise the one wheel. At that point, the one wheel spinning halted progress.

My next round of testing will consist of using a little more throttle to determine if I had actually reached the intervention threshold. I will also try lifting different wheels to see if I may just have a bad wheels speed sensor on one corner causing a failure. I will post the further results.

Regarding the MOG as the ultimate off-roader. Yes, it is certainly more capable than about anything off-road. Getting it to an off-road venue is a different set of issues. The MOG is rude and crude. Mine has a top speed of 53mph, and REQUIRES ear plugs at that speed. The cabin is cramped, do not plan on a passenger exceeding 5'2" in hieght, that side is even more cramped. Point being, the MOG is a very specialized tool, the G is far more versitile offering excellent off and on road qualities.

[G-Man]

The Mog thing is a bit of a dilema. The older Mogs like mine have a cramped cabin. The newer version moved the engine out front more making space for three in the cab. Problem is, the old ones have a cool look, the new ones are very boxy and industrial looking. They lack the character of the old style. There is a configuration that does work though. They make a four door version that can be had with a raised roof. These seat five comfortably but, are rare and more expensive.

On the speed differential threshold. I could open the door and watch the wheel spinning. The truck was stopped, it sure looked like more than a couple miles per hour. Like I said, I think I will do a couple things different next time. I will lift different wheels and try to spin the tires a little faster in an attempt to get the system to kick in.

The system does seem to work just fine in snow and on the flat dirt yard. I did find it to be a little intrusive in the snow but, that is likely due to my heavy foot and a 300hp V8 underhood

[G-Man]

Tracy,

There is a little better alternative in the realm of UNIMOG. I bought a diesel model. Mine has a compressed air system, hydraulics, PTO drives and the diesels are a little heavier duty.

The alternative is the gas powered 404 series Mog. These are the most popular, they are considerably less expensive as well. Most are soft tops, 2-door with a good sized flat bed on the back. They can be had in excellent condition for about $7-8000. Parts are plentiful and inexpensive. These were the military Mogs used all over Europe. They are now being replaced and are coming to the US in droves. They are quieter due to the gas engine, and the soft top gives a little more cabin room. The engine cover that is so intrusive on the diesels is considerably smaller in the 404.

So, if my primary use for the Mog was recreational off-roading I would have a Swiss 404. My needs ran towards needing a big snowplow and dumptruck. The 416 series was a better choice for me. While the 404 would still be slow, the rest of the issues are suitably addressed IMO.

[gsamuelson]

lol, finally a sensible discussion without flamers! With both M and G class people, wow! I was beginning to lose hope!

I know this thread is about Brent's G and is a bit old but someone did mention Unimog so...

Anyhow, the 416 are a bit cramped but IMHO its not that bad! Or maybe the 416 DoKa (dopple cabine, or club cab as Lebenz put it) has more room in the front seat . My wife is 5'6" and she finds the front seat cozy, sure her legs are almost straight out when sitting on the passenger side but she doesn't seem to mind and doesn't complain at all. Maybe driving around in a 404 has conditioned her somewhat and now that she has a solid roof over her head and heat, she puts up with the rest, hmmm.

The seats in the 404 are right on the floor and have two positions, up close and not as up close. The 416 has raised seats and the drivers side is adjustable both in distance to the steering wheel and the angle of the backrest, some are hydraulic. In any case, the seats in the 416 add considerable comfort in comparison. As for overall cab area, the 404 is not any larger and is more difficult to get into. One other thing is that windshield on the 416 is also larger and overall visiblity is better than the 404. I found there were blind spots at the bottom and the top of the windshield in the 404.


The back seat is large enough to use as a camper! (OK maybe I am exaggerating!! :p) If I could figure out a way to make the rear seat back slide down and the bottom slide forward I would have a comfy bed for 2. The diesel cabin heater could keep it all very warm and toasty.

As for top end speed, there is a compromise. My 416 Doka is equipped with fast axles, top speed is 110km/hr (68 mph). That is about as fast I would want to go with such a large and heavy vehicle. I always try to leave plenty of distance between me and the next guy but that only serves to collect morons with a death wish! The only downside to the top end speed increase in the change in bottom end speed, like I said, it is a compromise!

As for noise the 416 is pretty darn loud. Keep in mind that these are work trucks not SUV's. I don't have a radio in my 416 because there isn't much point!! Between the diesel running at near max rpm and the tires roaring down the highway, well, lets just say you can sing a song with as poor a voice as possible and nobody will notice!!(ever wonder how many songs you really know all the words to? Try it.)

A friend of mine has sound insulated his cab to the point where you can actually talk without screaming. Besides the insulation he previously used sound cancellation headsets with great success. He has installed lead impregnated neoprene mat all over the place including the rear wall of the cab. Besides keeping the noise down it looks really good, in a utilitarian sort of way.

The 416 are a big step up from the 404's(IMHO, since I have owned both). The 416's actually have glass windows with handcranks and a roof. j/k some 404's have windows too, not many though :p . I think that all the military surplus 404's are soft tops. Trying to compare the 2 is not easy, they share a common ancestry and design but have somewhat different purposes. The 416 were designed more along the original intentions of the Unimog in that they can be equipped with a tremendous number of different implements. Most of the 404's were made for Nato forces to haul around troops or command centers. The 416 are bigger, higher GVW, bigger tires, engine, tranny, axles, brakes etc.....

I found the 404s to be just as noisy as the 416's, if not more so, despite having gas engines. I think either model gets sound levels above 120db so what heck!! It hurts!
As for your G, definitely sounds like something is not up to snuff. How they will test it could almost be as big a problem as finding the problem itself. Maybe if they have a rolling test bed(sorry I don't know what they are properly called, they use them here when you get an emissions test, they have two sets of rollers so they can run your vehicle up to speed) they could raise one axle so that the tire spins free and then see if the other wheels pick up the slack? I'm sure MB must have some sort of test proceedure written up. Let us know what they do.

[tryan]

i have owned a m, an e4matic and now a g. (the e and m did not have stability control).

the first day i had the m, i took it out in some mud and got stuck. i was pissed. i was driving it like my truck with the left foot on the brake trying to make the other tire spin. read the manual right there and found out that hitting the brakes disengages the system. light on the gas and she pulled right out.

about a month later i was turnning around in the driveway, and raised the passenger rear about a foot off the ground .oops.
engaged low range. foot OFF the brake and she pulled right out.

never had any stuck situations with the e 4matic wagon. but i must admit ,it did much better in the snow than the f250 4wheel and traction lock dana diff. truley an amazing vehicle in the rain and slosh. just amazing. ( all 4matics are built in graz )

now comes the g. the first experience with stability control. i live in an area with twisty mountain roads and the program would kick in all the time. it got to be annoying and i thought it was just the way i drove. at the first oil change, the steering wheel sensor was replaced. no improvement. it still pisses me off. they have a less sensitive yaw sensors for sl's, but not g's. if we complain enough, maybe they will make one.

i took her up cove mountain to exersize the diif locks and low range. low range induced a light show on the dash. abs ets ect ect. the dealer replaced the panhard bar. it had been bent from locking the diffs on dry ground. (not me. she had 80 miles on her when i picked her up at the dealer)

i took her up cove again. low range did not trigger any dash lights. cool. i have to get the tires at different speeds to get the diffs to engage. ie turn the wheel a little. they engage/disengage very well with this procedure. all controls are bypassed with the diff locks engaged . this is normal.


now to your problem. if you aproached the holes on the course slowly/foot on the brake. the traction control is disengaged and the tires WILL spin.

if the panhard bar is bent, the traction control computer is freaked out and the abs (which contols the ets ) is kicked out.
climb under and check it. it goes from the front axle to the frame and locates the axle. you may need a new one.

try the course with your foot off the brake and see what happens.
you can always pull it out with the p car. heheh

[G-Man]

What the heck is going to happen to all of these new G's when people start to take them off-road? I have heard the bent panhard rod story before. How in the heck do you bend it??? If I run it in Moab like my other two G's and use the lockers on the hard surface there, will I "bend" the bar? Will I need to replace it after every adventure? Kind of makes the G's off-road prowess a big joke if that is the case.

Serves to make my point that these electronic systems HAVE NO PLACE in a serious off-road vehicle. All it is, is a bunch of idiot lights flashing at you when there are more important things to do, like pay attention, don't drive off that cliff!

I am getting closer and closer everyday to selling the '02G. IMHO they have ruined the truck. It is now compromised for off-roading, its former claim to fame. You might as well save 10 grand and buy an H2, the other worthless posuer off-roader. It is a shame

[tryan]

no telling how my panhard got bent or how it was driven the first 80 miles. pissed me off also.

with all three diffs locked, straight ahead is the path of least resistence. do your other g's have power steering?

my truck has different ratios for the front and rear axle. put it in 4 wheel on dry ground and the drivetrain will tie itself in a knot in about 10 feet. i have to lock in to back the boat up the driveway.

i don't like the electronic gizmos either, but until you start locking the diffs, that is what you are relying on. ( i will probably get my english corrected with that sentence. )

the one good mechanic at the dealer straightened my ride out. i was thankful that he took the time to research it and fix my problems. no more dash lights and she'll climb a telephone pole.

[G-Man]

tryan,

You have a little bad information. ALL G's came from the factory with identical front and rear differential gear ratios. If I understand you correctly, you have a new G500? Were you aware that the truck is in 4wd all of the time? If your drivetrain is binding, without the locks engaged, you have a problem with the truck.

My G's are a '95 and an '02, they definately have power steering. It is possible that the oldest G's came without it but, I doubt it.

I guess I prefer to rely on my own driving skills rather than some electronic program. I have never felt the need for additional traction help in my G's. Over the years I have used them on road, off road and for quite a bit of rural winter driving.

I am glad you like yours. They are fine machines despite my preference to avoid the additional electronics

[need2speed]

I've only experienced the intrusion of ETS once with our ML320, but boy did it do the job.

Four of us were driving through the mountains in a heavy snow storm at night, hoping to get to our hostel and a good nights sleep before skiing in the morning.

I was in the middle of nowhere, taking a big curving off-ramp from one highway to another. Just at the apex of the curve, I felt the rear end start to slide. There are no guardrails, just a big drop down the side of an embankment. Before I had time to yell "sh_t", I felt the brakes apply and the car jerk back into line.

I was absolutely wide-eyed and everyone was staring at me...they hadn't noticed a thing. It was a few minutes before I could tell them what happened.