First overtly political thread from the left. Is hiring Illegal Aliens Treason?
 

Bush wants to "legitimize" illegals that are here. Wouldn't the proper way to legimatize them be to annex Mexico? We are creating majorities in California, Arizona and Texas that have no rights here and very little in there own country. Aren't we selling out our own principles? How can we bring democracy to Iraqis, yet deny it to millions who live here among us? Why is "legitimizing" these people only something we want to do in only an economic sense?

My position is this - it should be a Class A Felony for employers to hire these people. To hell with trying to arrest the illegals - they are committing no crime in doing what any man would do to feed a hungry family. Arresting these people is no different than arresting a starving man for stealing a loaf of bread. The real criminals are the scheming greedy capitalist traitors who would sell out their own country by turning it over to an invasion by an army that has invaded us without guns. Like most filthy scumbag traitors they do it so they can make a buck. They belong in prison. There is no greater indictment of why turning this country over to corporations is the thing we are all going to regret, because these crooks that hire aliens seek nothing less than making treason legal. They should be locked up. If this was the law, then the illegals would be forced to stay in Mexico to solve their own problems.

We tax these people, in fact in the case of Social Security taxes we confiscate their income, thereby denying the most basic, most founding principle of this country - no taxation without representation. Bush chooses to side with the corporate criminals who sell out the jobs of Americans so we can continue to be craven hypocrites and screw these people, deny them the vote and treat them as a slave class, while our leaders allow us to be invaded in an invasion where no battles are fought, but that in the end gives us the same result as if the Japanese had successfully invaded America. To me, Bush violates his oath to perserve and protect the United States by supporting this treason.

As far as them being here to do the jobs nobody wants - we said that in Texas years ago and got to find out the hard way that there are plenty of skilled tradesmen and professional people in Mexico. These people have decimated what was once a backbone of the middle class here - high paying construction and maintenance jobs like carpenters, electicians and plumbers are gone now. Your job could be next. Why do none dare to call it treason?

We should make a choice - either make them part of our democracy where they have the same rights as everyone else, or keep them out in the way guaranteed to accomplish it - by meteing out heavy penalities for hiring them. To do anything else makes us all guilty of selling out our most basic principles.

It's treason if you consider our country a democracy.

It's "enterprising" if you consider our country a capitalistic society...

I think "treason" is an overly strong term to use, but I agree with your sentiments. That said, the law is the law...if people want to migrate here, more power to 'em...but they need to do so legally. IMHO active deportation of illegals is just as important...

Why are the laws against hiring them not being enforced? Could it be those in the know push this concept of arresting the illegals because they know its NOT going to work? Why are all the right wing talk show guys and talking heads on Fox, etc all talking about "illegal aliens", but never a peep about "illegal employers"?

The US Constitution does not establish a capitalist society, it establishes a representive democracy, in fact the Constitution would work just as well under a variety of economic systems. Shouldn't our first loyality be to the Constitution, which commands our government to protect us from all enemies, foreign and domestic and embodies the principles on which the country was founded such as no taxation without representation? I am sure Sam Adams did not shout "Liberty and Cheap Labor For All !" as he threw the tea in Boston Harbor.

Cheap Labor?

I don't see that anymore. Illegals are getting top dollar these days and they want all cash which means Uncle Sam doesn't get it's share.
They are stressing our systems and costing US tax payers more than the savings any business is saving. In the long run, the picture looks bleak.

Laws against hiring illegals are not enforced because (1) they're difficult to enforce, and (2) there is pressure from employers not to enforce these laws. After all, if we didn't have illegals, our new construction would be far more expensive, as would produce at our grocery stores. It would probably have cost me twice as much to get my house painted a couple of years ago! So employers and consumers for the most part have no reason to complain and push for tighter enforcement, and neither do workers who would want those jobs because, well, most American citizens aren't after construction, landscaping, and agricultural jobs.

People like me get upset over H1-B visas and offshore labor outsourcing, but we'll hire a painting crew made up of non-English-speaking men to paint our houses and maintain our lawn -- one set of immigrants hurts us, and the other helps us.

Without getting into the politics of it, talking heads talk aboutillegal aliens and not illegal employers because it's the immigrants themselves who are most visible and least powerless in our society. There are also more prostitutes in jail on any given night than there are johns or pimps, I'd wager.

We also worry more about the immigrants in the last couple of years because of the national security issues involved -- the 9/11 terrorists were here illegally as well, either without visas or on expired or invalid student visas. So immigrants are an easy target.

Also expensive to enforce. Rather spend the money on more tanks and star wars ;)

Exactly what I was going to say.

I don't think it technically qualifies as "treason" per se, but it is ABSOLUTELY illegal.

Illegal aliens should be arrested and deported, no questions asked.

Employers hiring illegal aliens should be arrested, no questions asked.

Mike

Is allowing work permit Mexicans that do jobs that our unemployed is too good for to live and work in hazardous unsafe conditions moral or legal?

That may be what's happening in California, but its not happening in the rest of the country. For years here in Texas illegals were restricted to the cash economy, but then big Texas corporations started seeing how toothless the laws were against hiring them, and they started hiring them by the thousands. Next the national corporations figured it out, which is why now you can find them all the way up in northern Maine now.

Heck, here in Texas, if I need to ask for anything at Burger King other than "#4 Supersize" someone has to go get an interpretor. Its no different at Walmart. The end result is that a lot of the entry level jobs that used to go to your kids or the poor or women reentering the workforce are gone. I started getting real mad about this when I went to work for a food processing company and found out they had 22,000 illegals on their payroll. Let that number sink in. 22,000 friggin illegals on a multi-national NYSE listed corporation. That isn't free enterprise, thats treason, and until all of us on both sides left and right start getting really, really mad, we are all going to regret it.

Another company I worked for created a new white collar job for production scheduling, a job requiring at least a business BA. Who do you think got the job? A Mexican! As illegal as the guys on the assembly line! Heck man, people graduate from college in Mexico too, and this company, with an assembly line full of illegals they winked at down at HR, WTF - lets start using their college grads too. People's perception of this being a problem of more people flooding in to mow our lawns better wake up. I do IT contract work for big corporations all over the US and I see this everywhere I go.

Webwench, bankrobbery law is difficult to enforce and bankrobbers aren't too in favor of it either.

Anyone who resides in Arizona could tell you that there are clearly people in authority here who promote the existence of illegal aliens. They have developed a substantial culture in the Phoenix area and generally live there uncontested. Consider the furor cause by Prop 200.

Illegal immigration and bank robbery are very different in that one is a violent crime that inarguably causes more harm than good, and the other is nonviolent and provides some benefits to some people.

And no, I'm not arguing in favor of illegal immigration. I was merely answering the question you posed:

"Why are the laws against hiring them not being enforced? Could it be those in the know push this concept of arresting the illegals because they know its NOT going to work? Why are all the right wing talk show guys and talking heads on Fox, etc all talking about 'illegal aliens', but never a peep about 'illegal employers'?"

Looks like nothing in that to penalize employers. Am I right?

Actually I just said that because it sounded like a great ironic yet acidic retorts that I love so much.

Ahh, I see. But I'm on good behavior and all, so I didn't recognize the witticism. I'll try harder next time ;)

Actually, this thread is a test of how far our good behavior can go. Let's see, I've used "traitor", "treason", did I use "kook" yet? I know I've refrained from "Hitler".

Who's going to harvest the
Vidalia Onions if not for the illegals?

Bush is not the first to chose to side with “the corporate criminals who sell out the jobs of Americans”. The borders with Mexico had been (prior to 911) dissolving for years, producing that “giant sucking sound” of NAFTA was only step along the way. It's a situation that grows worse with the pressure of Central American poverty. And now the jobs that don’t get taken by illegals here get shipped over there. It can’t be good to have a steady stream of foreigners inside the border and outside the system.

Legalizing illegals, prosecuting illegal employers, along with establishing jobs and stable governments in Mexico and Canada :D are all parts of stabilizing North America. Look at the EU, their not happy about everything thats happining there, but their Euro is beating our Dollar.

How many of you consider retirement to Mexico? In some ways It seems ideal but really it seems ridiculous. Who wants to live in an land of poverty and corruption? On my own street if my neighbor has a problem, it becomes my problem wether I like it or not. All the way to the Panama Canal.
Not easy like MB’s.
-Marty

Mexico, outside the little tourist enclaves, is a lawless and corrupt place. Anyone who retires there is insane. The people I know who have end up back in Texas with horror stories, or live in armed camps surrounded by people who want to kidnap and rob them, and thats just the police. If we actual did annex the place, we would have to shoot a lot of people. I think eventual union of Canada the US and Mexico is inevitable, so why not get it over with.

Shall we make a list of all the things that are illegal that aren't enforced?

KV I agree with you 100%! :eek:

I have no problem with people wanting a better life and working hard for it. The more power to them, our country was built by people like this. But I have a problem with them breaking our laws and violating my borders. I also gets to me when people want to give them "rights". You can't just get a part of the pie by jumping a fence.

Now what are your thoughts on stoping the problem KV? I am in favor of putting the military on the border to protect it. Many other countries do it why can't we? A few people might get shot but look at it this way: How many poor Mexicans die trying to cross the border. Lives might be saved in the long run.

But unfortunitly no party will touch this problem because they don't want to lose the Mexican vote. The only way the border will be fixed is if terrorists get a bomb across it. :mad:

That's why the only possible way to control them is to put a stop to the reason they come here-jobs. Going after the illegals is stupid, and those who hire them know it, so they keep pushing that because they know it cures nothing. We have to go after the employers the way we go after mobsters. If there are no jobs, they won't come in the first place.

I think any illegal alien should be deported back to their country of origin. Why have laws if they aren't enforced?

I'm also outraged when we give illegal aliens more medical treatments for free than we do our own citizens. What's up with that?

I'm with you there. Kick out the illegals, if they want to come here, let them follow the rules and laws. I have no problems with legal immigrants, only the illegals.

No papers, no medical treatment, schools, assistance etc, and a quick bums rush OUT of the country.

They get it all here -- and they're rarely prosecuted for committing felonies.

Yes, and the sad fact is thats true.

My dad was an immigrant from Italy and my best friend's family immigrated from India. My girlfriend's family fled here from Vietnam in '75 and all eventually received US citizenship.

Both of them are now a US citizens and have worked diligently for years against a completely innificient system here in the US to obtain their citizenships. They work hard and have always paid their taxes.

Then they have to see all these illegals waltz into our country while they pay for their benefits.

I can understand fleeing from an oppressive or poor country to come here-- but there are legal channels to get this done. I just resent the notion that our own hard working people are many times looked over in favor of someone who walked into our country illegally.

My wife is am immigrant from Italy. I went through hell getting her a green card after we were married ( I met her and married her while I was working in italy for 5 years). And that was during the time the Clintonistas were having the green card lotteries for the illegals. They come heere illegal and many got their green cards faster than my wife did. It took her 2 years and required direct intervention from a friend on the Senate appropriations commitee :D to have it out with the head of the INS to get action. Man was the Embassy pi$$ed off when they were told they had better justify in writing to his office every day she had to wait.

Bunch of idiots work at the INS. I think you could round up homeless people off the street and get mor competence out of them their first day on the job than the brain dead bunch that draw paychecks there.

Come on, Narwahl. I know how the hiring system works on these guys. The documentation laws are shot full of loop holes, and the business lobby put them in there. No picture IDs required. One study showed that you have to show more ID to get a Blockbuster card than you do a job. Granted, to police the employers we would need to set up an ID system in each state or nationally where those who don't have a drivers license (and who doesn't) are required to get a non-drivers version of a picture ID like a lot of states issue, altho what I would really like to see is a national bio-metrics based identificaton sytem. It is also a stretch that your average person sitting behind the desk at HR isn't acutely aware the person sitting in front of them is an illegal alien. Let's stop making excuses and loopholes for employers, and bust their asses instead.

My reasoning for why it is treason is simple. We have been invaded. What has happened to us is no different than a military invasion, and our federal government, who is supposed to defend us from invasion, instead colludes with the enemy bcause one segment of the population benefits from the invading army and gives the invading army money and support. What is going on is nothing short of treason.

And as strange as I find it I actually agree with KV on this issue.

Unless you believe that this is a covert and organized attempt to infiltrate or overthrow our government, it's different. I find the whole situation utterly bizarre and reprehensible, but I wouldn't characterize it as treason. As a sidenote, I'd just like to add that most people outside of TX, AZ, and CA (OK -- maybe FL) probably cannot comprehend the depth and scope of the problem, or the ways in which it effects our lives.

I can feel the love! :D

I think on this issue, both parties sell out the people for different reasons. The dems love the illegals because they have kids here who grow up to be democrats. The Republicans love them because they fatten profits. Both push this "we need more enforcement at the border" and "arrest them all" crap because they both know it will not work. It would take the entire US Army to arrests the 3 million or so illegals in Houston alone. The cure to this problem is to legaize the ones that are here, and then set up some type of system where those that hire those who arrive after that point go to jail. Both sides need to stop buying the propaganda supplied by there own particular political party - they are both selling us down the river.

Like I said, the real eye opener was the situation I observed where I witnessed an illegal being hired for a white collar job, and the sense I got that corporate manangement is now actively seeking out people like that for those jobs. That and the total collapse of the skilled-trades market in Texas for American citizens due to the huge influx of Mexican carpenters, plumbers and masons, now means this invasion threatens the American middle class. In general, they make docile employees who work for less and never ask for a raise, that is if they know whats good for them. Their lower pay scale also drives down the pay scale of legal workers in similiar jobs. It is anti-American to me. I think if we look at this as Americans - we have two choices, either invite the entire country of Mexico to become part of the US so we don't have a slave class in our midst (which I think they would do in heartbeat), or start doing the things that will actually stop this instead of buying the same sucker story we have been getting from the politicians for 30 years. In addition, I would look at your response that disagrees with my characterization of this as invasion and treason and ponder the word "infiltrate" a little. We have been infiltrated. A foreign country has infiltrated and invaded us, with the collusion and support of traitors among us. I fail to see how the fact they did it with out guns makes the situation's eventual outcome any different than if they had tanks and rifles.

Unfortunitly I don't think this problem will be solved unless another 9/11 happens. Neither party wants to lose the Mexican vote so we are stuck with this problem unitl it runs its full course.

What will happen in 50 years? Will Mexico become the 51st state? Will some states try to leave the Republic and go back to Mexico? These people are not stupid and wont work for nothing forever.

I still dont understand why legal Mexican americans, hispanics? whatever, get angry when a politician says close the borders, send illegals back. Its like theres this constituency of criminals and supporters of criminal activity and nobody wants to touch it for politcal correctness/gain I guess?

Exactly.......

I think some people feel there is a less-savory sentiment behind the anti-illegal-immigration folks, namely a dislike for Mexicans.

I'm not saying that applies to anyone here.

I for one don't dislike LEGAL immigrants, most of my friends are legal immigrants. But the Illegal ones......well they have no rights and have no right to be here. Contrary to what liberal judges seem to think. There is a thing that countries do have the right to turn away people for any reason. Uneducated? criminal history, terrorist ties? They have no business or rights here.

The unification of the US and Mexico is inevitable. Its already occurred in my opinion. They are on their way to becoming the majority in this country, and once they are, the official unification will occur. We actually would both benefit from it - they have lots of oil and unexplored oil potential, and despite the rampant crime the majority, decent Mexican people are a highly moral people who value family above all else, which is one of the things that makes them such good workers and such a good fit in American society. They desperately need an American style system of justice, and they know it, which is one of the reasons I believe they would do it in a heart beat - the majority of Mexicans would do anything to get out from under the yoke of the corrupt politicians, police and gangs that rule Mexico. It would also right two great wrongs - one the denial of democractic rights like the right to representation when subject to taxation, and another great historical wrong, the theft of half of Mexico by our fore-fathers. The Mexican War was one of the great wrongs of US history, and in many ways, the sympathy I feel for these people is that this used to be their land and in many ways they have as much right to be here as I do. They are not exactly foreigners, in fact many of them are also descended from Indians who fled our genocidal massacres of these people. Indian cuture survived in Mexico because the Pope forbed the murder and enslavement of them, which is why there are millions of Indians in Mexcio and only a few hundred thousand here in the States. I would say that the great majority of Mexicans that come here are descended from those Indians - in other words they are our own people coming back.

I'll tell you exactly why. One of the most tragic situations I ever witnessed in my life was in Ft Worth, Texas, where a teenage friend of my sons, woke up one day and found out his parents were on a green bus on the way back to Mexico. Shortly thereafter, CPS showed up, and packed him and his sisters off to foster homes. His parents cleaned toilets to support those five kids, and inspite of the poverty they lived in they had a happy home and they were always welcome in my house. I have never in my life forgetton the situation, and I hate the kind of thinking in this country that leads to that. It is simply unjust. The Mexican people who live legally here have grandparents sometimes even children who could be subject to deportation. It took that kids parents I'm talking about years to find all their children. Its is simply unjust. People mouth these AM radio slogans about rounding these people up not even realizing they are talking about babies being taken from their mothers and teenage boys losing their fathers at a time of life they need them the most. I hate the whole god damned thing.

Oh, I agree with you that it does not meet the legal definition - I think the law needs to be changed so that it does, because it certainly meets the conceptual definition.

I wonder if the chicken processor is the same company I was talking about that employeess 22,000 illegals in Texas. States treat illegals differently - in New Hampshire and most of the other big union states, the local cops bust them, and they languish in state jails until the feds come get them, sometimes for months. Considering that Northern cops and jailers are union guys, they make sure they have a very unpleasant time, and the word gets around among them to stay out of New Hampshire.

Here in Texas, its all about not being my job to arrest them - its the feds that have to do it. Nobody GAS.

As far as jail time goes, you know as well as I do that if CEOs are looking at going to the pokey then they will spend the money and time to make sure it doesn't happen. I'm sure lots of them are rethinking their accounting practices right now.

I think Tysons, or was it Perdue got busted in MD for something simular.

I agree with you guys about that being a tragic situation.

But the parents were ENTIRELY at fault for the situation. They put themselves and their kids in such jeopardy by being here illegally and trying to raise a family here illegally. It was very irresponsible for them to put their children at risk of ending up in such a heartbreaking predicament. I feel very sorry for the children, who are obviously not at fault, but I don't feel sorry for the parents one damn bit.

Mike

They get cash because they are illegal. The employer pays because it is cheaper in the long run and they don't have to pay as much per hour. Mexicans are great hagglers but I doubt they are commanding "top dollar".

Most legal Mexicans I have met are some of the hardest working as well, most having two jobs.

It is the people that employee the illegal aliens that are the problem IMO.

Corporations not paying their fair share of taxes, or none at all, is draining this country.

Webbie, its amazing how similar our views are on this an occassionally other topics. I wonder if we'll be accused of being the same person? So far, and at different times, I've been accused of being MedMech, Plantman, MikeMover, MoparMike, and probably other's whose names escape me. Oh yeah, Spock and Rasputin. How could I forget? Maybe more. So far I think they'be all been male (or at least projected male personas). Maybe if I pi$$-off somebody else using similar reasoning as you, they'll make the connection that you are my female side, or I your male.

I think I'm having an identity crisis. Well, off to Blockbuster to rent a machinegun movie. Or maybe a Hugh Grant movie. Hmmm.

This is where I differ from you. We paid them for that land after we beat their army. We also could have brought them into the Republic right then and their we took their capitol. But we pulled out.

We gave them jack. Half the US for 10 million? Even in today's dollars it was a pittance. Its too bad we didn't bring them in to the country, we wouldn't have the problems we have today - the reason we didn't was racism and the fact that slavery was prohibited in Mexico by the Pope. In addition, we invaded them, not vice versa. It was a big land grab by the strong from the weak. I think if you asked any historian, the consensus would be that what we did was wrong. It was not one of our good-guy wars.