We may be over it here, but our British and Australian friends, in internet forums and magazines, use the word "Jap" and "our little yellow friends" with a very casual manner, they seem to see nothing wrong with it.

I was pretty shocked. It sounds like a perjorative to me.

I have never said that the Japanese were/are lilywhite, I am aware of their 20th century history. Suginami voiced an opinion I disagreed with it and brought in the nukes as an example why there should be no love lost between the two nations.
My wife isn’t much concerned about my online escapades or with my view of the world, she is apolitical just like a lot of her compatriots. Appeasing me, when it comes to political discussions, is the least of her worries.
I don’t hate America, I find its foreign policy opportunistic, imperialistic and predatory all wrapped into a patronizing “we will save you from tyranny” propaganda (in exchange we will install a puppet regime that will help us exploit your natural resources and turn your country into a dumping ground for American made “not so” goods, we will even give you foreign aid but you can only use it to purchase goods and services form us). Some people around here, whether it is stemming from ignorance or arrogance, continue the chest beating and backslapping as if it is something to be proud of.
Conversely, just say the truth and be done with it, "we want what you have and if you don’t give it to us we will take it by force". Don' bask in the imagined glow of the savior of the world. Your commander in chief is an almost illiterate moron who is so wrapped up in his religious fantasy and self importance that he became an embarrassment to his country and a tragedy for another.
"Tribal sovereignty means that; it's sovereign. I mean, you're a — you've been given sovereignty, and you're viewed as a sovereign entity. And therefore the relationship between the federal government and tribes is one between sovereign entities." —President Bush, Washington, D.C., Aug. 6, 2004

As to the other comment, you took a swipe at Holland and at the Dutch for no reason other than trying to goat vronsky.
Your contribution as a nation to the world's cultural heritage is disputable, the history is much worse when it comes to discrimination and genocide; the Europeans had the best to learn from. Slavery in Europe was abolished over a thousand years ago, no native population was eradicated (along with almost an entire animal species just so that whoever wasn’t killed surely will starve to death).
You can never possibly understand what it means to protect one’s heritage, history and culture, yours is rather diluted. I know exactly who my ancestors were, where they came from, why and what they did to survive. I can look back 100, 500, 1000 years and the names and actions of my forefathers make me proud. The same can not be said about any of you, for what you see when you open your history book is extermination, bondage and institutionalized racism. So before you complain about Europe think of the "redskins" and the slave masters. Don’t have to look too far, just a few generations.
“The Marshall Plan aid was mostly used for the purchase of goods from the United States.
Of the some $13 billion allotted by mid-1951, $3.4 billion had been spent on imports of raw materials and semi-manufactured products; $3.2 billion on food, feed, and fertilizer; $1.9 billion on machines, vehicles, and equipment; and $1.6 billion on fuel.[16]
.
.
The early students of the Marshall Plan saw it as an unmitigated success of American generosity. Criticism of the Marshall Plan, however, became prominent among historians of the revisionist school, such as Walter LaFeber, during the 1960s and 1970s. They argued that the plan was American economic imperialism, and that it was an attempt to gain control over Western Europe just as the Soviets controlled Eastern Europe. Far from generosity, the plan was the result of the United States' geopolitical goals.
.
.
Other historians emphasize the benefits of the plan to U.S. industry. One result of the destruction in Europe as a result of two world wars was that U.S. farming and industry had world superiority. American private enterprise thus could only gain financially from opening new markets and free trade policies.”

The cold war has ended because communism is not a viable economic system.
You didn’t end it, the Hungarians opened the Austrian border to let all the East Germans out, that was the beginning of the end.

As to the involvement in the Yugoslav problem, again it wasn’t the US’ business, if anything the Bosnians were blocked from arming themselves so the Serbians had unopposed access initially, therefore the losses were higher than otherwise would have been. On the other hand, I want to see your reaction when the Mexicans start throwing hand grenades into discos and police station in California stating that it really belongs to them because there are enough of them around now. Exactly the tactics used by the KLA to provoke the Serbs.
One observes from afar another one lives it daily.
Without question, understanding the language will give me much greater insight. I am rather frustrated at the moment not being able to speak it.
I was going to suggest that Suginami lived here so he is fully aware that the "salarymen" don’t really have much saying in whether they will go drinking after work or not, therefore it is not a “bodies go for a cold one and shoot the breeze after work” affair but rather an obligation. They would never insult a foreigner knowing that they have to work with him for the foreseeable future. And people behave the same way in most other societies too, I suspect.
Of course it is so much more humane to kill indiscriminately with carpet bombing, napalm and laser guided missiles, or nukes, because if we don’t see our victims’ blood and can only observe them being blown into pieces from a computer screen then it really doesn’t hurt, does it?
I am not defending the Japanese just point out that atrocities were committed on both sides, the US going in a much more industrialized fashion about it.
Care to explain how you got to that conclusion?

Alex

I think that you meant the word "goad" not goat. I merely provided an illustration that while continually critical of U.S. culture, lifestyle, and internal and external policy, our Dutch friend comes from a country whose government continually exhibits, to put it charitably, questionable judgment in crafting and implementing its own internal and external policies. While Vronsky is essentially a troll and erstwhile provacateur, he does seem able to present a point of view without resorting to personal name-calling. This may be a point that is lost to you, as it apparently is to me. In any event, I'm sure that Dutch citizenry world-wide have great appreciation of your vigorous defense of their country.

I must confess that I am quite jealous of your ability to trace your lineage, as I can only trace my lineage back approximately 350 years. I am hopeful that you have carefully recorded your family history for your heirs, given that your ex-patriate status will make their own research somewhat difficult.

As to the U.S. history regarding slavery, you may be intrigued to learn that we settled that issue a few years ago as the consequence of a dispute that we refer to internally as "The Civil War". Genocide? Apparently a few 20th Century eastern European leaders were insufficiently offended by this concept.

dacia,

you make some good points, but you have a totally anti us slant. where else would the western europeans been able to buy the things they needed?

if you had read a little more us history you would be perhaps able to see it from another perspective.

often the blade can cut both ways. things are rarely ever totally simple in real life.

tom w

Oh Tom, come on now: Everyone around the world knows that the only things Americans are good for is driving their 4x4 pickup trucks (adorned with the Confederate flag of course) in a great big circle around Texas, then getting all grouchy and murderous when the "low fuel" light comes on.

I guess I'm showing off my insular and provincial attitude. Mea culpa. Unfortunately, I was born to a country showered with so many advantages and benefits that I never had the opportunity to gain the cosmopolitan perspective afforded by fleeing a country in the dead of night with just the shirt on my back.

Dacia if I was thin skinned I may almost be insluted by how you insult and trash the USA.

Ahh Europeans, yeah lets be like them and fight more wars! I mean until 1945 they were very good at killing eachother. Really we need to learn from the best.

What of it? You speak as tho it is something that only we do. It is something everybody else does. The only difference is the degree to which they do it and how obvious it is to others. I used to live in Singapore. They had an agreement to buy water from Malaysia in exchange for electricity and some cash, IIRC. When S disagreed with M on policy, M would want to shut of the faucets IN SPITE OF A SIGNED CONTRACT. However, M tends to view itself as the big brother trying to keep the little one out of trouble. They have even wanted to increase the price of water RETROACTIVE to when the contract was signed at one point because S refused to toe the line and they said that it was because they sold it too cheaply then. WTF is this? The NFL? S has gone into recycling sewage for drinking water. If this isn't meddling in a sovereign nation, what is? Same dish, different flavor is all. Does M consider itself saintly? Of course. It even has said some harsh words to the effect that the USA uses it's military muscle to push other nations around. However, what they themselves do is not abusive. It is just fine.

The truth? You and most others couldn't handle the truth. Hence the wrap up in all the wonderful notions that they say they are doing. Fact is, our govt, your govt, any govt says much that sounds good, believes in few and does even fewer, if any. Nobody really speaks the truth, do they? Why not listen to Hussien? He said Kuwait was a province of Iraq so all he was doing was reclaiming what was his and not trying to grab it's oil. You believe that? Take off your rose colored glasses and look at your own govt and tell me it is perfect. It too does all sorts of dirty stuff wrapped up in some high falutin aim.

Just whose natural resources have we plundered? Were our advirsaries from WW2 subjected to harsh post war retribution? Did we keep Kuwait's oil fields? Have we stolen Iraq's resources? Just because the US has the balls to challenge tyranical dictators does not mean it's not justified.

Perhaps you think Nazi Germany was a good thing? Maybe you think that Communism should have gone unchallenged? If all was left up to Europe they would be speaking German or Russian by now.

And what is so bad about giving 10's of billions of dollars a year in financial aid in exchange for some business contracts? Who else would you hire, the French?

Let me remind you that a large amount of the technological advancement in the last fifty years originated here in the US, not Europe, Asia, or the Middle East.

I'm not sure where your from, but please enlighten me as to what your country has accomplished in the world in the last fifty years that makes you think your morally superior to the US. Sure we make some mistakes, but at least we try, more than I can say for Europe and Asia.

If you are going to talk morality, EVERY country will have dirty hands if you could get an indifferent judge from another planet. Problem with morality is that it depends on who is judging. Every country, but this one, seems to consider that others are morally corrupt while they have no faults. They will comment on how so and so should be doing this or not doing that. They just seem blind to the fact that while they don't do the exact same thing, they are doing something along the same line. IOW, I condemn someone for stealing Yen but I'm ok because I am stealing Euros.

Bosnia
Somalia
Djibouti
Sierra Leone
Ethiopia
Iraq
Zimbabwe
Zambia
ect
ect
ect

and I am still in the present, I think that the country that does NOTHING ins immoral.

...I still 'cherish' the general aspects of "The Morgenthau Plan"...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Morgenthau+Plan

ahhhh yes, but if we had done that would you have a benz to drive? that is any better than a kia?

tom w

The country that does nothing immoral does not exist

I may not have made this clear enough ... 'cherish' was meant zynical ...a few quotations from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Plan


Office of Strategic Services (OSS):
On December 11, OSS operative William Donovan sent Roosevelt a telegraph message from Bern, warning him of the consequences that the knowledge of the Morgenthau plan had had on German resistance; by showing them that the enemy planned the enslavement of Germany it had welded together ordinary Germans and the regime; the Germans continue to fight because they are convinced that defeat will bring nothing but oppression and exploitation. [12] The message was a translation of a recent article in the Neue Zürcher Zeitung:

The conviction that Germany had nothing to expect from defeat but oppression and exploitation still prevails, and that accounts for the fact that the Germans continue to fight. It is not a question of a regime, but of the homeland itself, and to save that, every German is bound to obey the call, whether he be Nazi or member of the opposition.

On March 20, 1945 President Roosevelt was warned that the JCS 1067 was not workable: it would let the Germans "stew in their own juice". Roosevelt's response was "Let them have soup kitchens! Let their economy sink!". Asked if he wanted the German people to starve, he replied, "Why not?".[16]

On May 10, 1945 Truman signed the JCS 1067. Morgenthau told his staff that it was a big day for the Treasury, and that he hoped that "someone doesn't recognize it as the Morgenthau Plan."[17]


In 1947 the U.S. Congress warned that the continuation of the present policies:

…can only mean one of two things, (a) That a considerable part of the German population must be "liquidated" through diseases, malnutrition, and slow starvation for a period of years to come, with the resultant dangers to the rest of Europe from pestilence and the spread of plagues that know no boundaries; or (b) the continuation both of large occupying forces to hold down "unrest" and the affording of relief mainly drawn from the United States to prevent actual starvation.[20]

Same source as above: In view of the continued poverty and famine in Europe, and with the onset of the Cold War which made it important not to lose all of Germany to the communists, it was apparent by 1947 that a change of policy was required.

The change was heralded by Restatement of Policy on Germany, a famous speech by James F. Byrnes, then United States Secretary of State, held in Stuttgart on September 6, 1946. Also known as the "Speech of hope" it set the tone of future U.S. policy as it repudiated the Morgenthau Plan economic policies and with its message of change to a policy of economic reconstruction gave the Germans hope for the future. Herbert Hoover's situation reports from 1947, as well as A Report on Germany also served to help change occupation policy.

The Western powers worst fear by now was that the poverty and hunger would drive the Germans to Communism. General Lucius Clay stated "There is no choice between being a communist on 1,500 calories a day and a believer in democracy on a thousand".

The most notable example of this change of policy was a plan established by U.S. Secretary of State George Marshall, the "European Recovery Program", better known as the Marshall Plan, which in the form of loans instead of the free aid received by other recipients eventually was extended to also include the newly formed West Germany in 1949.


The Marshall Plan … is not a philanthropic enterprise … It is based on our views of the requirements of American security … This is the only peaceful avenue now open to us which may answer the communist challenge to our way of life and our national security." (Allen W. Dulles, The Marshall Plan) [4]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

International relations is all about pragmatic self-interest. It is not about warm and fuzzy goodness. This is why Marines are not in Darfur. What is in it for us?

B

I merely pointed out the fallacy in your argument; US foreign policy is lot more detrimental to world piece than Dutch could ever be. It is a prevalent sentiment in discussions here that any country that does not share the US’ geopolitical vision is a visceral America hater, a traitor and surely a Muslim/terrorist sympathizer, let it be the French, the Russians, the Germans or anybody else. The world is not your playground anymore. The Roman Empire lasted for 2000 years, the Third Reich for a mere 10, you did marginally better.

Name calling isn’t just my forte, I believe “loogie” is not what you would call your loved ones. It is not my job or duty to defend anything or anybody around here, but the anti-European bias exhibited by some is annoying.

The US is the biggest polluter in the world (In 2001, the United States had a per capita energy consumption of 341.8 million Btu, greater than 5.2 times the world's per capita energy consumption. Per capita carbon emissions are similar to energy consumption patterns, with the United States emitting 5.5 metric tons of carbon per person, the world on average 1.1 metric tons.), has the highest percentage of prison population per capita, has one of the highest crime and murder rate in the industrialized world, consumes ¼ of the world’s daily oil consumption, just to name a few problem areas some of which greatly affects the rest of the world. Seems that its citizens should be concerned more about their own problems than lecturing others.

As to your rather flippant brushing aside of the slavery issue, I just would like to ask Rosa Park what took her so long, damn she waited 95 years. Surely that war has resolved things in an orderly and swift fashion. Or has it? Wait, a disproportionatly large prison population (in some states almost half) is made up of minorities, old habits die slow.

“In his first inaugural address in 1993, President Clinton spoke of the United States as the "world's oldest democracy." [16] Is it? Presumably, this history starts the clock of democracy in 1787 when the Constitution was ratified. But many would consider this problematic, since this Constitution excluded as much as a sixth of the country's population--its slave population--from any of the rights of citizenship. Can we then start the clock of democracy in 1865 when slavery was abolished, or in 1868 when the Confederate states re-entered the Union with a commitment (in their state constitutions) to equal rights for all citizens? That too is dubious.
For another hundred years, the United States was not a democracy for all its citizens. At first through terrorist methods, and, later, starting in the 1890s, through amendments in the state constitution, the Southern states pressed ahead in their effort to exclude blacks from the political process. This resulted in "the disfranchisement of nearly all black citizens and the removal from office of nearly all black legislators in the former Confederate states by 1910." [17] Arguably, we might start the clock in the 1960s, when the blacks launched the Civil Rights Movement to regain their political rights. However, this process is far from complete. Under felony disenfranchisement laws, still on the books since the days of segregation, some 4.7 million Americans are denied their voting rights. Under these laws black men are disenfranchised at seven times the rate for all Americans. [18]

For the complete record on American 'compassion,' read William Blum, Killing Hope: US military and CIA interventions since World War II (Monroe, ME: Common Courage Press, 2004)?”
http://www.counterpunch.org/alam03232004.html

No need for the hypocrisy, few people believe it, your country has a rather checkered past and present. As some people pointed out it would foolhardy to believe that the US is the only one with questionable foreign policy, but the amount of propaganda is dishonest and distasteful.
Perhaps spending a few months in a refugee camp would alter your perception of reality.

Pointing out duplicity is not an insult.

Regarding the Europeans killing each other, it did not and do not affect you in America, why the uncontrollable urge to get involved (without studying the history and the cultures of the countries involved, thereby invariably making crucial mistakes not just in Europe)? But of course, war is good for business, especially on foreign lands. So, let me carpet bomb your cities, wipe out your industries, destroy all of your infrastucture then offer you some money to buy suplies from me (perhaps at somewhat inflated prices) to rebuild, why I am a genious.

“The only major power whose infrastructure had not been significantly harmed was the United States. It had entered the war later than most European countries, and had only suffered limited damage to its own territory. American gold reserves were still intact as was its massive agricultural and manufacturing base, the country enjoying a robust economy. The war years had seen the fastest period of economic growth in the nation's history, as American factories supported both its own war effort and that of its allies. After the war, these plants quickly retooled to produce consumer goods, and the scarcity of the war years was replaced by a boom in consumer spending. The long term health of the economy was dependent on trade, however, as continued prosperity would require markets to export these goods. Marshall Plan aid would largely be used by the Europeans to buy manufactured goods and raw materials from the United States.”

About being a happy mutt, good for you, as long as you are happy. I, on occasion, read the writings of my ancestors form many, many centuries ago, fondly recall my high school history classes and if I look in the phone book I see many of the same names there used a thousand years ago. It all may mean nothing to you in the US, but unless you can do the same you are in no position to lecture Europeans about culture, history, and heritage.

As to the Marshall plan, it seems that there is a controversy around it:

“In the 1980s, a new school developed with some historians arguing that the Marshall Plan might not have played as decisive a role in Europe's recovery as was previously believed. The first person to make this argument was the economic historian Alan S. Milward and the analysis was developed by the German historian Gerd Hardach in Der Marshall Plan (1994). Such critics have pointed out that economic growth in many European countries revived before the large-scale arrival of U.S. aid, and was fastest among some of the lesser recipients. While aid from the Marshall Plan eased immediate difficulties and contributed to the recovery of some key sectors, growth from the postwar nadir was largely an independent process. (European socialists argue that a similar amount of reconstruction money could have been obtained by nationalizing the holdings of wealthy Europeans who deposited their money in U.S. banks during World War II.)
Tyler Cowen, economist, has stated that nations receiving the most aid from the Marshall Plan (Britain, Sweden, Greece) saw the least returns and grew the least between 1947 & 1955. Those nations who received little (Germany, Austria, and Italy) grew the most. It should pointed out the latter countries were also the most devastated, and thus had the most potential for recovery.”

As I have stated before I don’t believe that US has ever done anything truly ultraistic on an international level, there are always conditions attached to every dollar given. It is fine too, nobody is obligated to give away aid, but then be honest about it and stop the chest beating.

Alex

Not than the Dutch ever could be. Go read some history.

B

Anti-Americanism Is Racist Envy
Paul Johnson, 07.21.03, 12:00 AM ET

Anti-Americanism is the prevailing disease of intellectuals today. Like other diseases, it doesn't have to be logical or rational. But, like other diseases, it has a syndrome--a concurrent set of underlying symptoms that are also causes.

• First, an unadmitted contempt for democracy. The U.S. is the world's most successful democracy. The right of voters to elect more than 80,000 public officials, the length and thoroughness of electoral campaigns, the pervasiveness of the media and the almost daily reports by opinion polls ensure that government and electorate do not diverge for long and that Washington generally reflects the majority opinion in its actions.

It is this feature that intellectuals--especially in Europe--find embittering. They know they must genuflect to democracy as a system. They cannot openly admit that an entire people--especially one comprising nearly 300 million, who enjoy all the freedoms--can be mistaken. But in their hearts these intellectuals do not accept the principle of one person, one vote. They scornfully, if privately, reject the notion that a farmer in Kansas, a miner in Pennsylvania or an auto assembler in Michigan can carry as much social and moral weight as they do. In fact, they have a special derogatory word for anyone who acts on this assumption: "populist." A populist is someone who accepts the people's verdict, even--and especially--when it runs counter to the intellectual consensus (as with capital punishment, for example). In the jargon of intellectual persiflage, populism is almost as bad as fascism--indeed, it's a step toward it. Hence, the argument goes, the U.S. is not so much an "educated democracy" as it is a media-swayed and interest-group-controlled populist regime.

The truth is, on the European Continent there is little experience of working democracy. Italy and Germany have had democracy only since the late 1940s; Spain, since the 1960s. France is not a democracy; it is a republic run by bureaucratic and party elites, whose errors are dealt with by strikes, street riots and blockades instead of by votes. Elements of the French system are being imposed throughout the EU, even in countries such as Denmark and Sweden that have long practiced democracy with success. In a French-style pseudodemocracy, intellectuals have considerable influence, at both government and street levels. In a true democracy, intellectuals are no more powerful than their arguments.

• Second, anti-Americanism is a function of cultural racism. An astonishingly high proportion of European elites know very little about U.S. history or culture and even deny that they have a separate existence apart from their European roots. It is strange that those seeking to bring about a European federal state or union have at no stage sought to study the lessons Americans learned during the creation of the U.S. in the 1780s. After all, the U.S. Constitution (suitably amended) has lasted for more than 200 years, and within its framework the country has emerged as the richest and most powerful society in world history. You might think, therefore, that European elites would seek to learn something from such a successful process. Not at all: The view is that sophisticated, civilized Europe has nothing to learn from "adolescent" America. What these Euro-elites particularly abhor is the way in which the framers of the Constitution made every effort to involve the population through the process of public debates, town meetings and ratification votes--and this at a time when Europe was still governed (for the most part) by the absolute sovereigns of the ancien régime.

This cultural racism is particularly directed at the supposedly "know-nothing" President George W. Bush and his "gung ho" Texas background. The European intelligentsia gets its notion of America chiefly from Hollywood, TV soaps like Dallas and fiction. Few of them have any experience of America, outside of three or four big cities. Middle America is unexplored territory. The fact that the U.S. has proved a highly efficient crucible for melding different peoples into a human sum greater than its constituent parts is seen as a misfortune in Europe because it produces a cultural stew that lacks purity of any kind and is therefore at the mercy of commercial forces.

• Third, European elites tend to look at Americans as a subcivilized mass, whose function is to be obedient consumers in a system run by big business. The role of competition in U.S. economic life--and in every other aspect of life--is ignored, because competition is something Continental Europeans like to keep to a minimum and under careful control.

Although Americans are seen as highly materialistic consumers, they are also despised and feared for their spiritual interests, their participation in religious worship and their subscription to creeds of morality. Europeans see no inconsistency in their condemnation of the U.S. for being at one and the same time paganly unethical and morally zealous.

The truth is, any accusation that comes to hand is used without scruple by the Old World intelligentsia. Anti-Americanism is factually absurd, contradictory, racist, crude, childish, self-defeating and, at bottom, nonsensical. It is based on the powerful but irrational impulse of envy--an envy of American wealth, power, success and determination. It is an envy made all the more poisonous because of a fearful European conviction that America's strength is rising while Europe's is falling.



Paul Johnson , eminent British historian and author, Lee Kuan Yew , senior minister of Singapore, and Ernesto Zedillo , former president of Mexico, in addition to Forbes Chairman Caspar W. Weinberger , are now periodically writing this column. To see past Current Events columns go to www.forbes.com/currentevents.

How many troops have the Dutch committed to stop hunger or genocide?

Interesting that he has showcased Rosa "Park" as an example of America's continued failure to address race equality, when Miss "Park" was essentially an icon of America's ability to look within itself, and through primarily peaceful means, effect significant social and cultural change.

Had Rosa "Park" lived in Dacia's birthplace in 1955, I wonder if the revolutionary movement she triggered would have flowered, or if it's founding fathers would have been dragged into the woods and slaughtered. It's certainly unlikely that Miss "Park" would have been in a position to wait 95 years for anything. I wouldn't compare Miss "Park's" pre-1955 circumstances to that of a pre-Civil War slave, but perhaps to that of the average eastern European citizen.

I'm awaiting Dacia's showcase of a country, government and/or culture that we should emulate. I'm particularly interested in the identity of a country in which its government and inhabitants are free of prejudice, bias or partiality. It is most certainly not in eastern Europe.

I suspect that this may be the most flagrant case of the pot calling the kettle black I've encountered in quite some time.

Dacia, I patiently await your apology for calling me a stray dog. It was personally offensive and unwarranted.

Pointless. His mind is as closed as he claims ours to be.

It's interesting to note that Dacia has essentially told us to mind our own back yard before venturing outside its boundaries after attempting to chastise me for my implying that Vronsky should do the same. How odd.

He went Dutch on himself.

Dacia means Romanian is that what he was before he strayed?

Apparently. Not a nice place is it? I'd rather live in Detroit.

only the ones who acted honorably. Japanes soldiers were brutal torturers that showed little respect for human life, don't pity them. Same for the Nazis.

Apparently some of it came naturally because he told me that when we were just about to move from New Mexico to OlyWA he got word from a buddy that they were going to have a GTG. He was right in the middle of planning a big move and couldn't do it.

Yeah, you're right, the VA would be the outfit for it -- I was saying pentagon as sorta shorthand for gub-mint military.

You make some good points, I regret that so many people are willing to dismiss it as America bashing. We've been reading and digesting our own press releases for so long, we've started to believe 'em.

However, many peoples have migrated over the centuries. The people you descended from likely as not came from somewhere else and displaced another people.

Many of your ancestors likely as not did horrible things to neandrathals, speeding them to a date with extinction. I dunno, seems like war and mass killing is going to happen now and then no matter what.
I could be wrong (it's happened) but I think he was referring to America as a whole rather than you specifically.

I believe the intent was that a warrior is not a criminal. Not all of the Imperial armed forces or the Third Reich were as you described in your oversimplified generalization.

any Native Americans in this thread?
 

The author makes an awful lot of assertions, seems to have some serious issues with Continental Europe, failed to mention the UK and its Royal family as the antidote to democracy even once in his tirade (but of course he is British). I am not sure where gets his information from, there are many countries in Continental Europe (30, some of which actually invented democracy), and a lot more intellectuals, speaking as many if not more languages. I find it somewhat difficult to see how they all would speak with a unified voice when it comes to the US.
He finds the US’ system glorious for its just, honest and inclusionary (is that a word) ways yet, if my recollection is correct, on this very board there were accusation of vote fixing, coercion and outright fraud with the voting machines during the most recent election, and the leader may not have been elected as the will of the majority. Mentioning Bush was a particularly bad example, it has been shown (by Bush, himself no less) many times he is a near imbecile, especially when compared to some of the previous presidents.
It is also known that televised debates make or break an incumbent’s aspiration, for some of the viewers care more about style than substance. Rather shallow, but then again, “nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public”.
The same may apply to other countries, it is just the author is sure that democracy is flawless in the States. As to the spiritual interest, religious worship (as if was something to be proud of in the 21st century), creeds and morality he should have read a few statistics before going on a diatribe. Enron, WorldCom, Exxon Valdez, Bhopal, television evangelism, murder/rape/robbery etc. rate, crime infested inner cities, racism against blacks and Mexicans, the list is long. The popular criticism the US is receiving in Europe is for its foreign policy and its chest beating, loudmouth propaganda.
Interesting how a black civil right activist fighting against white racism in America ended up to be white America’s icon in changing “itself”. I guess some of the black readers here would disagree with you on that claim. She inspired not all Americans but black Americans to fight for their rights. If it were up to mainstream America, the status quo would have been just fine. The fight wasn’t “primarily” peaceful either, there were race riots for years, King was shot. Yes, her name was ParkS.
Had she lived in my birthplace in 1955 she would have been an ordinary member of society for there has never been slavery there, no Klux-Klux-Klan, no cross burning and/or lynching.
As to comparing her circumstances to that of an average Eastern European (this term is rather misleading, it is a geopolitical invention, the Iron Curtain divided Central Europe and West Europe) shows how little you know about that era. You are making a fool of yourself in your lame attempt to belittle her work.
I never claimed that other governments and/or countries are free of problems, but the most obnoxious yelling and screaming coming from your corner, as if it was your god given right to lecture others about the infallibility of the “truth, justice and the American way”.
Dacia was the name of a Roman province, approximately the area in which today’s Romania is located. Incidentally, it is also the name of the car I owned when I lived in Austria (it was a Renault 12 essentially, manufactured under license).
True, human history is about conquest, but I never claimed that my people were the lightning rod for humanity.
Americans on the other hand:
“All too often, politicians rally their audience with inflated claims of American greatness. The United States is "the greatest country in the world." At other times, it is "the greatest country ever," "the greatest country ever conceived," or "the greatest country in the history of mankind." When the exuberance soars, America also "kicks ass!"
Nearly as often, one hears of the United States as the great Samaritan: second to none at 'civilizing' half-breed races. In the words of Abraham Lincoln, the United States is the "the last best hope of mankind," no less. More frequently, it is "the shining beacon on the hill." Recently, John Kerry, Democratic Presidential candidate, roused students at UCLA, "I believe we can bring a real victory in the War on Terror. I believe we must, not only for ourselves but for all who look to America as the last best hope of earth." I have to wonder if the Vietnamese civilians killed by Kerry and his crew also looked upon them as "the last best hope of earth."”
http://www.counterpunch.org/alam03232004.html

English does not differentiate between singular "you" and plural “you", sometimes it is cumbersome to make the distinction. In that comment the plural “you” was meant to be used.

Alex

The history and natural history of humans is the same as for any animal: Breed and colonize or die unto extinction. Humans, apparently unique on Earth, are capable of recording history and projecting destiny, however imperfectly. We also are capable of an array of emotions that is also the broadest among animals, as far as can be deduced at present.

From these imperatives of biology and culture we evolve rules of morality that guide our interpersonal behavior within our family, clan, and tribe. But he have never developed a moral code that scales-up to large populations or geographical areas. The morals and taboos of family, clan, and tribe life simply do not scale effectively and as a result, the different moralities of various tribes and nations usually do not map 1:1 against each other. For example, "our" tribal warrior code, Chivalry, differs somewhat from western country to western country but mapped poorly against Japan's Bushido. We found their behavior at war incomprehensible and savage. They viewed ours as incomprehensible and cowardly. But we won and so, chivalry, encoded in the Geneva Conventions, is the international standard of behavior for warfare.

It is in direct conflict with Islam.

B

The GC is also a standard nobody else seems to adhere to but a few. They then get surprise when others don't do it but they insist that it has to be adhered to. Problem is there i no referee in international conflicts to give a 20 yard unsportsmanlike penalty. There is only "victor's justice" when they win.

Oh, see, there is your mistake. You take the words of a politician seriously. Their job is to tell everyone that life is good, we are doing good, etc, etc. Sorta like a cheerleader. Know what? I have heard political speeches in other countries at ralies too. While the words are different, the intent seems to be the same thing. Oh, they might say "We are not the world's (insert adjective here) we are actually doing very well compared to those who are and it won't be long before we catch up to them and......" Well, you get the picture.

Well, let's start at the end of this diatribe and work our way backward: There has been no attempt to belittle Ms. Park's work by me or anyone else on this thread, excepting you. You have an unfortunate habit of misdefining an argument and then belitting those who you claim to be its author. I'm thrilled to learn that your community has been free of cross burning, lynching, slavery, decaffeinated coffee, or whatever falliability or vice that you claim for America. This (still undefined or identified area, why?) sounds idyllic. Why aren't you still there?

Yes, there was rioting in America stemming from racial supression, particularly during the early 1960's, but it wasn't the unending stream of havoc and mass bloodletting that the term "race riots for years" was clearly meant to convey. Yes, Martin Luther King was murdered. Being a leading force in asserting social or cultural change is a hazardous endeavor in America and most any other country. Try to recall a bit of recent world history on this point. Or go back a few generations and recall that the presentation of a perfectly good play at Ford's Theater in Washington D.C. was spoiled by a gunshot.

You have piqued my curiosity on one point, and I would appreciate a frank and on-point response: Are you convinced that to be white and an American is essentially to be a racist? You seem to paint America with as broad a brush as you have indicated America paints the remainder of the world, and I am interested in your perspective as someone who is (apparently) not an American citizen.

I merely asked you to showcase a culture or government that we should emulate. You appear to be unable to do so, or even to acknowledge that the United States or its citizens possess one single positive quality. Why?

A wonderful car, as many Renault vehicles have been. I once considered purchasing a Renault 12 during my teen years, but yearned for something safer and with a touch more refinement and purchased a Lawn Boy instead.

Sharply critical of the U.S. isn't it? How can the U.S. government allow such subversive babble to be published here and read by its citizens and anyone else in the world? Oh, right, that pesky constitution of ours. I envy the government in certain other countries, where the authors of such a document would be either shot, jailed or forced to drive expatriate French sedans.

I can barely type this sentence, so tear-streaked my eyes are over your extravagent and emotive apology.

AND YOU DON'T??? :mad: :mad: :mad:

Please go away,. Your diatribes are tiring.

:stupid:

Hence the fallacy of "international law."

No, that's not right. He is simply expressing his opinion on a few issues. Not an opinion that we apparently share, but nothing wrong with that.

A bunch of 'Hums' as far as the eye can see... and yes, that is ment to be an insult.

That's it. I'm placing the entire membership on my "ignore" list!

I do so want to mutt back up upon the question as to the effects of the superior European pedigree upon the qualitys of the hounds of our day... but I am tired, and so, have only one enquiry.

What, pray tell, has become of the Neanderthal?

Now that was a successful program.

<grunt>

We fight and win the promised land and the bottom feeders come here to exploit its wealth and prosperity because they were failures in their old stinkin cesspool.

He's Governor of Florida and doing quite well, thank you very much.

Has he done a bad job? I haven't heard much of Jeb.

He's termed out as Governor of Florida, and apparently has done a good job.

His approval ratings are consistently in the 60% range, which is better than G.W. Bush or Clinton ever had.

He has managed to cut taxes, balance the budget, and offer vouchers for public schools, which has proven to be wildly popular.

Don't forget that he also managed his state through 5 hurricanes one year and three the next. Still balanced the budget, etc.

No, I wouldn't vote for him for president. No new dynasties, please.

B

Not me, I'm ready to carry on the dynasty. It's time for a new Camelot. :rolleyes:

Once agan, this thread gets the award for "Most Hi-jacked Thread".

Remember it started out as a Pearl Harbor Remembrance thread.

Maybe it's time to post some pics of ugly chicks to properly memorialize it.

...or to appreciate the good looking ones ...