But like MTI suggested what happens if they are exonerated with new evidence?.....if you were falsely accused (in actuality) I would want some more opportunities to clear up the mess.

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Kill them all and let God sort them out.

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C'mon now. I just did the math yesterday, and even with todays substantially higher prices, my ammo worked out to ~22 cents per round. And that's regular over the counter retail, not even shopped about online for the best price. I'm thinking large government contract and so forth, they could get the cost down quite a bit. Heck, for point blank execution work, you could go with any number of less expensive rounds (my example was for .40 S&W). Heck, I'll donate several rounds (and the time if needed) if I can recover the bullet and do some real world ballistics testing...

It's still a lethal injection.

MV

Reread that part if YOU were a mistaken identity and incarcerated. That doesn't apply to this case. Just taking the stance if one of us were in the hot seat and told we were going to be extra crispy.

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1974 240D 3.0L 4(M) - 250K -OM617.910 + 300D FW + Rajay turbo power!
1977 6.9 3(A) - 84k

Any system created by humans and implemented by humans is going to be, by its very nature, "flawed." So you are not adding much of any value to the debate by stating the obvious. DUH!

As a prosecutor, and as one who has closely followed/studied other legal systems I can tell you that if I was wrongfully accused of a crime I would much rather be tried here than in Russia, Saudi Arabia or even France for that matter. Heck, even if I was rightfully accused of a crime I like my chances here!

Let's take a look at all the checks and balances that we have (in the jurisdiction where I practice law and in California in general). Let's take a murder case as an example.

A murder is committed and the suspect is initially unknown. The police agency sends in its best detectives to investigate the crime. The detectives are aided by the agency's crime lab. After a long investigation, which usually includes forensic evidence as well as countless witness interviews, the police settle on a suspect.

At that point they bring the case over to the DA's office. Once the case gets to the DA's office, it is assigned to an experienced Deputy DA (DDA) who does a de novo review of ALL of the evidence collected by the police agency. That DDA, with the assistance of other DDAs as well as in-house investigators makes a filing decision.

At that point a preliminary hearing is held. At the prelim the evidence obtained by the police, and developed by the DDA is further tested by the judge and the defense attorney. If the evidence is solid, the suspect is held to answer (HTA) and an Information (the charging document) is filed.

At that point, in a capital case, the elected DA together with a team of seasoned prosecutors makes a decision on whether to seek the DP. Input is invited from the defense attorney.

Regardless of whether a deicison is made to seek the DP or to seek a lesser sentence, the case goes to trial.

The evidence is now tested again, by the judge, jury and by the defense attorney. If the defendant is acquitted, then the case is over for the prosecution. We have no right of appeal--we only get one bite at the apple.

If the defendant is convicted, he automatically has the right to a long string of appeals.

So, by the time that the defendant is convicted the evidence has gone through several layers of filters to test its admissibility and strength. And that does not even take into consideration the long appellate process.

There are so many people involved in the process that the possibility (or even the probability) of all of them getting together and planning to commit "prosecutorial misconduct" in order to intentionally convict an innocent man is so remote as to be nearly neglible.

Even after a defendants is trieda and, presumably convicted, there is still a long stirng of appeals, to further test and challenge the validity of the conviction.

Have some innocent people been convicted? Yes, especially in cases where race played a role. Does it still happen now? In some instances it is possible. Will the widespread use of DNA testing prevent the wrongful conviction of defendants? Most definitely.

A recent study conducted by Brandon Garrett, a law professor at the University of Virginia (the article will be published in the January edition of the Columbia Law Review) concluded that there have been many flawed convictions. In his study he also concluded that now that DNA testing is common in the "front end" of prosecutions the probability of innocent men being wrongfully convicted will drop down to zero.

In a rape case that I handled, all of the witness identification led to one suspect. In the old days he would have probably been prosecuted and perhaps even convicted. DNA testing,however, conclusively proved that he was not the rapist so he was not prosecuted. DNA, however, eventually led the police to the right man. I prosecuted him for burglary, kidnapping, car jacking, rape and a host of other related crimes. He is now serving a long prison sentence. He has also appealled his conviction which I am happy to say has been upheld by the appellate courts. (I cannot imagine a worse feeling, for a prosecutor, than to send an innocent man to prison).

I guess that was a roundabout way of saying that our system does indeed work.

Of course, liberals and people who are ignorant of how the process really works like to spread the myth that wrongful convictions happen all the time. It serves their political agenda. the truth, however, is a far from the myth that they hold on to.

I suppose that everyone has an agenda, and that's fine. But the next time a violent predator/criminal is released because of the decision made by some pointy headed jurist, think about what happened to the friend of R.Leo's wife.

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I think the judicial system worked pretty well both times: he was found guilty and sentenced to die for his crime(s). It was a hosed-up corrections system, prison overcrowding and weak politicians that repealed the death penalty and ultimately released McDuff on our society.

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Very decent analysis of how the process works!

One thing I would add is the jury selection in cases like this is very scrupulous....the jury selection is very long and drawn out, and the potential jurors often fill out long questionaires designed to elicit their ability to be fair, and they are gone over very thoroughly by the Judge and counsel. Pointed or biased responses then require lengthy further voir dire.

Great care is taken in jury selection, though each side tends to want to select jurors more favorable to their side. The attorneys act as a check and balance to this.

Sometimes even jury consultants may play a part.

For the most part it works pretty well.

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Counsellor, you have just made the point for not allowing the judicial system to "play god."

I'm not sure that a majority of the non-white, non-Christian population of this country necessarily would agree with you.

And yet it happened in the past. Recently in Massachusetts, convictions were overturned and a civil judgment awarded when it was brought to light that the FBI had intentionally framed the wrong suspects.

DNA technology won't come to the rescue of death row inmates that were the victims of prosecutorial misconduct, political manueverings or simple "lying and cheating" by the government. Trusting "the system" is not only foolhardy, it goes against the basic prinicples that this country was founded upon.

What happened to that person is no less tragic than the state taking the life of innocent person.

Folks who believe in some form of redemption/rehabilitation should volunteer a bedroom for the parolees.

Is housing for parolees the biggest concern? Well, just as soon as someone figures out what the appropriate and acceptable percentage of innocents killed by a flawed capital punishment system is, we can talk about housing.

JD was right in his first post. Another useless thread.

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Why? Because MTI didn't agree with you?


I would like to point out that being against the death penalty does not mean one is for paroling everyone. A criminal can go to jail for the rest of his/her life.


As someone who is not white or Christian, and has traveled a fair bit, I'm siding with Benz-LGB on this one. I wouldn't trust any legal system as much as our own. France second, but only if it's made clear I'm not a Muslim, because if they think I am, I'm toast.


Mistress, I'm trying to track down a link detailing all of the extra costs associated with death penalty cases, but can't remember where I read it.

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If you believe that, then don't fly in airplanes. They are designed by humans, piloted by humans and traqffic controlled by humans.

You may be willing to allow yourself to become paralyzed by some of the inherent flaws in any human-designed system. I prefer to work to continue to improve the system while keeping the DP in place.


I am "non-white" as you so colorfully referred to the non-Anglo-Saxon crowd. I still would not be willing to be tried in a Russian court, or a Saudi-Arabian court. And I lived in Cuba and had family members prosecutred and convicted in kastro's donkey-courts. I would prefer to be tried in any courtroom south of the Mason-Dixie than in one of kastro's kourts.

Thus the system worked as designed. The truth eventually came out.


Professor Garrett and members of the Innocence Project at the Cardozo Law School wold disagree with you.

I suppose that IF the police investigating the case and IF the prosecutor prosecuting the case and IF the defense attorney defending the cirminal and IF the judge hearing the case and IF the jury hearing hte evidence and IF the appellate justices hearing the appeals IF all those people want to really, really screw an innocent person, well I guess they can.

I notice that you live out in Hawaii. I bet you believe that FDR conspired to have the Japense bomb Pearl Harbor so he could have an excuse to declare war against the Axis. don't you?


More innocent people are assaulted, raped and killed by criminals than innocent people executed by the system.

Let me ask you tis, are you completely opposed to the DP?

Let's assume, arguendo, that a system was designed that would guarantee with 100% certainty, that a convicted criminal was indeed guilty of the crime that he is charged with.

Just play along for the sake of this exercise. If such a system was designed, would you then still be opposed to the DP?

I have no problem with people who are opposed to the DP on moral, religious or ethical principles. I respect a person's right to his own beliefs.

If that is your position on the DP, then say so and that's fine. But don't try to tell me that our system is flawed (or that other systems are better than ours). I work in the system, been doing so for over two decades and I know how well it works, for all of our citizens.

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1989 300TE "Alice"
1990 300CE "Sam Spade"
1991 300CE "Beowulf" RIP (06.1991 - 10.10.2007)
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2002 C320 Wagon "Molly Fox"

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Nope, people disagree with me all the time and I disagree with them all the time as well.

As Zeus (not the Greek one) mentioned to me, these threads are for the most part useless. They are useless because for the most part people take sides along ideological lines. There is no discourse, no debate no reasoning. It becomes a game of GOTCHA! just like currnet politics.

That's why the thread is useless. Like the synthetic vs. dyno oil threads.

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Current Benzes

1989 300TE "Alice"
1990 300CE "Sam Spade"
1991 300CE "Beowulf" RIP (06.1991 - 10.10.2007)
1998 E320 "Orson"
2002 C320 Wagon "Molly Fox"

Res non semper sunt quae esse videntur

My Gallery

Not in this weather!

If the threshold is 100% certainty then that changes the standard of punishment from, "beyond reasonable doubt" to "beyond any doubt" which includes both reasonable doubt and unreasonable doubt. Now that's silly, isn't it?

So what is your standard?

B