Should we continue to support governments that permit this...

[BENZ-LGB]

...or should we instead respect their customs???

You decide.

HONOR KILLINGS PERSIST IN A "MAN'S WORLD"

By NBC News’ Shahid Qazi and Carol Grisanti

BABAKOT, Pakistan – In a tangle of bushes and trees outside a remote village in southwest Pakistan, six close male relatives of three teenage girls dug a 4-foot wide by 6-foot deep ditch, on a sweltering night in mid-July, and allegedly buried the girls alive.

The girls' crime: they dared to defy the will of their fathers and the customs of their tribe and choose their own husbands. The mother of one of the girls and the aunt of another were shot and killed while begging for the girls’ lives, according to local media reports.

The incident has touched off widespread condemnation from human rights groups, but also a sturdy defense from local officials. "This action was carried out according to tribal traditions," said Israrullah Zehri, a senator representing Balochistan in the upper house of Pakistan’s parliament in the capital Islamabad. "These are centuries-old traditions and I will continue to defend them," he said.

We visited the scene and interviewed locals to try and learn more about this gruesome crime.

Daring to defy tradition

Saarang Mastoi is the local journalist who broke the story. He told us that on July 14, Fatima, Fauzia and Jannat Bibi, aged 16 to 18, got into a taxi in Babakot, a small village of farmers and sheepherders in Pakistan’s Balochistan province, and drove about one hour to the village of Usta Mohammed to meet their boyfriends. The girls were chatting in the back of the taxi about their plans to meet the boys at the local restaurant and then go to a civil court to marry them.

The taxi driver dropped the girls off and then drove straight back to Babakot to inform their families about the secret plans he had overheard in the back of his taxi, according to Mastoi.

The girls’ decision to elope came after their male relatives and tribal elders had refused them permission to marry the boys of their choice because they were from another tribe.

The families of the girls belong to the wealthy feudal Umrani tribe in Balochistan. The uncle of one of the girls is a minister in the Balochistan provincial government and a deputy leader of the ruling Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP), according to an investigation into the incident by Human Rights Watch.

Traditional justice

Almost immediately after the taxi driver’s return, a posse of male relatives, including fathers, uncles and brothers, set out from Babakot for the village of Usta Mohammed to bring the girls home. The men arrived in land cruiser jeeps bearing Balochistan government license plates – one belonging to the district mayor, according to Human Rights Watch.

The girls were kicked, punched and then pushed into the vehicles at gunpoint, Mastoi, the journalist, said. Once back at home in Babakot, the girls were beaten again and interrogated by their fathers and uncles for almost one hour before their "verdict" was announced.

They would be killed – buried alive.

The girls were dragged into vehicles and taken to the end of a back road in Babakot accompanied by two female relatives, according to media reports. The men dug ditches and ordered the girls to be thrown in. When the female relatives saw the ditches, they tried to intervene and begged for the girls’ lives, according to local media reports.

There was "pandemonium at the site," according to the findings of the Asian Human Rights Commission, and a tribal elder gave orders to shoot the two older women. They died immediately and were thrown into the wide ditch. The three girls, who were wounded in the gunfire but still alive, were then thrown in and covered with sand and mud.

In Pakistan’s rural areas, male tribal councils decide the fate of women who bring dishonor to their family. In 2004, President Pervez Musharraf outlawed the practice, known as "honor killings" – violations of the law carry the death penalty. But the law is impossible to enforce because this centuries old custom for dealing with women is protected by powerful feudal landlords and tribal elders.

Mastoi, the local reporter, told NBC News that "powerful people" from the Umrani tribe had threatened him and warned him of consequences if he continued to report the story. He said that everyone in the village knew what happened and shortly after the murders, a couple of shepherds in the area had taken him to see the actual burial site. "Now everyone is too afraid to talk," he said.

‘It’s a man’s world’

Only about 7,000 people live in Babakot, a run down and dusty place about 200 miles south of the provincial capital, Quetta. Donkey carts carrying women, children and poor farmers give way on the road to the shiny 4X4 Land Cruisers of the wealthy landowners and tribal chiefs.

Ali Baksh, a frail shepherd with a thin scruffy white beard, has been tending his sheep in the neighboring district of Naseerabad since he was seven years old. When asked what he thought about the murders in Babakot, he stared blankly for a few seconds and then he said, "I am proud of our Balouch traditions and it was the right punishment for those girls who defied the will of their fathers."

Public outcry by human rights groups and lawmakers has forced the federal government in Islamabad to open an investigation into what happened in Babakot six weeks ago.

But the Asian Human Rights Commission believes a full accounting of the events may be impossible: "The Balochistan police have removed three of the five bodies and started destroying any evidence that might prove useful to an eventual investigation."

Back in Babakot, the reaction of an elderly woman to questions about the story seemed to confirm the human rights groups' fears. When asked about the story, she refused to give her name, sighed and waved off any hope for justice in this case. "It’s a man’s world and these things will never stop," she said.

[link]

Since when does respect for human rights have anything to do with who or what the US gov supports?

Isn’t it Pakistan where they will not only throw acid in one’s eyes as punishment but do it at large scale public gatherings? It is a very brutal culture.

BTW, would you kindly not post these articles in bold?

[BENZ-LGB]

Originally Posted by link

Since when does respect for human rights have anything to do with who or what the US gov supports?

Isn’t it Pakistan where they will not only throw acid in one’s eyes as punishment but do it at large scale public gatherings? It is a very brutal culture.

BTW, would you kindly not post these articles in bold?

If you have an issue with the way I post an article, take it up with the mods.

So you don't think we should support the Pakistani government?

[davidmash]

I don't think we should support Saudi Arabia, Iran under the Shaw, Chile under Pinochet (sp?), Egypt, Jordan, Haiti, Uganda, Columbia ... just to name a few. What is one more dictator among friends of the US. Not like we have a reputation to maintain or anything.

[link]

>If you have an issue with the way I post an article, take it up with the mods.

That is silly. Why wouldn’t I take it up with you?

> So you don't think we should support the Pakistani government?

I said that human rights has nothing to do with who the US Government supports. Support for the government of Pakistan government comes down to pay-off in hope they won’t sell or give away more of their nuke technology. I don’t know if it actually works, or works to keep a more or less unstable group in power.

I would love to see 100% of the money our government sends them go to building a public school and university system in their country and a majority of their citizens actually using it. edit - An educated public would probably bring an end to tragedies such as the one beginning this thread.

[BENZ-LGB]

Originally Posted by davidmash

I don't think we should support Saudi Arabia, Iran under the Shaw, Chile under Pinochet (sp?), Egypt, Jordan, Haiti, Uganda, Columbia ... just to name a few. What is one more dictator among friends of the US. Not like we have a reputation to maintain or anything.

I don't think that Pakistan is ruled by a dictator. I think they just had elections. So that is not the question.

The question is directed more at whether we should tolerate habits in our allies that we ourselves consider to be border-line barbaric. There is no direct governemnt action involved here (other than looking in the other direction and getting some local cops to help out).

I am asking about supporting the government of a country that tolerates the kind of behavior described in the article. Should our stated goals of diversity and inclusion extend to these kinds of practices.

That is all I would like to know.

How does everyone feel about that?

BTW You got Pinochet right, but you got the Shah wrong.

[BENZ-LGB]

Originally Posted by link

That is silly. Why wouldn’t I take it up with you?

Well, since you did not give me a reason for your request, I must respectfully decline it.

Originally Posted by link

I said that human rights has nothing to do with who the US Government supports. Support for the government of Pakistan government comes down to pay-off in hope they won’t sell or give away more of their nuke technology. I don’t know if it actually works, or works to keep a more or less unstable group in power.

Read my response to davidmash. This is not so much a question of government sponsored violations of human rights.

It is more a question of a government turning a blind eye and dead ear to tribal customs such as the ones described in the article.

So my question is directed more at how far do we go, in the name of cultural diversity, in tolerating this kind of beahvior. Or, in the alternative, is it even our business what tribal leaders in Pakistan, or elsewhere, do?

Originally Posted by link

I would love to see 100% of the money our government sends them go to building a public school and university system in their country and a majority of their citizens actually using it. edit - An educated public would probably bring an end to tragedies such as the one beginning this thread.

I would like to see 100% of the money we spend in foreign aid spent here, in domestic aid and in lower taxes. Our infrastructure is falling apart because we do not have money to fix it (just one example).

[raymr]

It's our government's job to protect it's own citizens from harm. Anything else is optional. The thing is, before instant news coverage and blogs, these things were going on all the time - just nobody knew. The question should be, how big do human rights violations have to get, before large scale international action must be taken? As tragic as it is, 3 teen girls don't cut it.

[BENZ-LGB]

Originally Posted by raymr

It's our government's job to protect it's own citizens from harm. Anything else is optional. The thing is, before instant news coverage and blogs, these things were going on all the time - just nobody knew. The question should be, how big do human rights violations have to get, before large scale international action must be taken? As tragic as it is, 3 teen girls don't cut it.

Fair enough.

And, apparently, killing millions of Jews was not enough motivation either. We did not become actiely invlved in WWII until after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

[pj67coll]

Originally Posted by BENZ-LGB

...or should we instead respect their customs???

We support them in part precisely by respecting their customs.

How would you stop supporting them? And what result would that have? By the way, this doesn't just occur in Pakistan. It occurs in India as well and this type of barbarity has also occurred in Britain and the USA though in these cases at least they are prosecuted.

It comes down to how deep in the sand do you want to bury your heads?

The Pakistan central government has precious little control over large areas of the country and none at all it would seem over the borderlands with Afghanistan. If you decide to withdraw all support for the Pakistani government you will likely lose all assistance in the war in Afghanistan. The logistical support for the Nato operation there is entirely dependent on Pakistan. So you are almost certainly garanteeing a return of the Taliban. Which in turn, apart from consigning Afghanistan to nauseating islamic funamentalism once again, also means Al Qaida once again has a safe haven from which to plot it's next strike.

There is a lot more complexity here than simply wether or not you support a government that is too weak to control it's own country.

America needs to realise that isolationism just doesnt work despite the inherent messyness of the alternative.

- Peter.

[jlomon]

Originally Posted by pj67coll

The Pakistan central government has precious little control over large areas of the country and none at all it would seem over the borderlands with Afghanistan. If you decide to withdraw all support for the Pakistani government you will likely lose all assistance in the war in Afghanistan. The logistical support for the Nato operation there is entirely dependent on Pakistan. So you are almost certainly garanteeing a return of the Taliban. Which in turn, apart from consigning Afghanistan to nauseating islamic funamentalism once again, also means Al Qaida once again has a safe haven from which to plot it's next strike.

Very well put.


I agree that the practice of "honour killings" is horrific. We'll be having a trial in the next year or so in my city here in Canada (of all places) where a father and brother committed an "honour killing" against their daughter/sister because she was too westernized and would not wear her hijab, etc. I don't believe that Canadian law has a significant enough punishment for their actions. I just don't know if foreign policy is able to put an end to the practice. Female circumcision would be another barbaric practice I would put in the same category. Women are not chattel.

[raymr]

Originally Posted by BENZ-LGB

Fair enough.

And, apparently, killing millions of Jews was not enough motivation either. We did not become actiely invlved in WWII until after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

That's a whole different topic, but true, my dad had stories about his youth in wartime Germany. How the allies bombed commuter and freight rail lines, but not the ones going to the concentration camps.

[pj67coll]

Originally Posted by jlomon

Very well put.
I don't believe that Canadian law has a significant enough punishment for their actions.

I agree. But it does apparently have a Thought Police to ensure nobody criticizes these skunks. I'm referring of course to the BC human rights tribunal that was harassing Mark Steyn for speaking out about islam.

- Peter.

[jlomon]

Originally Posted by pj67coll

I agree. But it does apparently have a Thought Police to ensure nobody criticizes these skunks. I'm referring of course to the BC human rights tribunal that was harassing Mark Steyn for speaking out about islam.

- Peter.

A complaint was made about to both a national and provincial human rights tribunal. In both cases the complaint was thrown out by the tribunal. No thought police going on, thank you very much. His published thoughts, hateful though they might be to some parties, were completely protected in both cases.

[AustinsCE]

Originally Posted by pj67coll

America needs to realise that isolationism just doesnt work despite the inherent messyness of the alternative.

- Peter.

Neither does nihilism...
http://www.gulfnews.com/world/Pakistan/10244487.html

Islamabad: Fourteen people were killed in the northwestern Pakistani region of North Waziristan on Friday in a missile attack by a pilotless US aircraft on suspected militants near the Afghan border, security officials said.

The strike, near the town of Miranshah, was the first since a recent surge in tension between Pakistan and the United States over how to tackle the Taliban and Al Qaida on the Pakistani side of the border.

"We confirm a missile attack at around 5.30 in the morning (2330 GMT on Thursday) ... We have informed the government," said military spokesman Major Murad Khan.

The military, apparently reluctant to highlight infringements of sovereignty, has rarely confirmed such attacks.

Khan gave no more details but security officials in the region said 14 people had been killed and about 12 wounded.

Residents said two missiles were fired at a former government school where militants and their families were living.