Audiophiles ... advice re: WAV vs. Apple Lossless

[BodhiBenz1987]

A new album I bought came with a USB memory stick pre-loaded with the album in three types of files: MP3, WAV and Apple Lossless m4a. From what I understand all three will work on my iPod Nano ... I have some very basic knowledge of the differences between the three. I loaded the m4a files onto my iTunes and subsequently iPod. They sound the same on my computer, not surprisingly since it has the lousy stock speaker, but I feel like the m4as actually sound a little fuller/richer than the mp3s when I listen to them on my car's system. I don't have an insane sound system by any means, but I have pretty nice speakers (Focal Polyglass X 4, Alpine digital amp and Polk sub) and the system was professionally installed and tuned. Will the WAV files sound even better? I can't really imagine it sounding better than it does, but I'm just curious if there is any difference between an ALAC file and a WAV file that can be noticed without a serious, serious sound system. I know WAVs take up a great deal more space so I'd probably stick with the m4as or mp3s, but I'm just curious.

The album box set also came with the whole thing in 5.1 ... as well as the CD and vinyl LPs. Way too much audio fun.

[okyoureabeast]

Unless you're listening to classical music with an incredibly trained ear (eg you played it) then you won't notice a difference between the tracks.

That's my professional opinion as a sound designer. Personally I like the best compression bang for my buck. So it's m4a at 192 kbps. For compatability mp3 will do just nicely at 192 kbps.

If it's for your glove compartment nano then use m4a. :p

[BodhiBenz1987]

Thanks for the professional input ... I love how I can get advice on darn near anything on this forum in addition to the MB advice.

I was in concert choir in high school, but that's the extent of my classically trained ear. I have an appreciation of classical music and very good hearing but that's about where it ends. I do feel like I hear a difference between the m4as I have in the car now and what I had originally done with the album, rip it to AAC off the CD. Is that just my imagination? I really only notice it on three tracks, which are a symphony. The m4as vary from 745 kpbs to 1081 kpbs. Yes, this is my glovebox Nano ... but it's actually a new one, with 16 Gigs instead of the inadequate 2. I only have 2.7 filled so far so I'm not space-conscious ... yet.

[G-Benz]

The "mp" formats use some sort of compression, which means there is some audio loss...again, you won't notice it a bit on anything but fairly esoteric audio equipment...and a VERY trained ear.

[cscmc1]

Ooooh, you got LP's too. Nice. I just picked up a couple jazz LPs on Stax and Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab; I need to get the turntable hooked back up now that the cooler weather is setting in and the daylight's getting shorter. It's almost time to start doing some listening!

May I ask what title came in so many formats? Just curious.

[Crazy_Nate]

All of my music that I have digitally ripped from CD, I do in the FLAC format (compressed lossless). I figure, why not have the same quality as the cd? Space isn't an issue with me.

A CD that has been ripped as FLAC is about 350-500MB, so a 16GB portable audio player would be about equivalent to a decent sized CD wallet. I've been eyeballing the Cowon iAudio7 for a while now, as a replacement for carting CDs around. 16GB (flash) is about $140

[BodhiBenz1987]

Originally Posted by cscmc1

Ooooh, you got LP's too. Nice. I just picked up a couple jazz LPs on Stax and Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab; I need to get the turntable hooked back up now that the cooler weather is setting in and the daylight's getting shorter. It's almost time to start doing some listening!

May I ask what title came in so many formats? Just curious.

This is the new album from Muse, which was available in a number of formats ... I went for the box set, even though it was kind of expensive, because of all the different formats and since it just looked like a neat thing for a fan to have. I've actually noticed a few bands that include LPs in box sets now (maybe they have before, too, but I've only noticed it now). Even though it's not "practical," there's something very cool about putting on a record and just sitting there and taking in the music. I'm going to fiddle with my parents' record player today ... I think it still work but it's probably been a while since it's been used. I can remember sitting and listening to all my mom's Beatles albums and my dad's Moody Blues. We got a CD player in 1984, but there was still something cool about those big LPs. Once I get it turning maybe I can dig out some of my parents' old records.

[Whiskeydan]

Originally Posted by BodhiBenz1987

This is the new album from Muse, which was available in a number of formats ... I went for the box set, even though it was kind of expensive, because of all the different formats and since it just looked like a neat thing for a fan to have. I've actually noticed a few bands that include LPs in box sets now (maybe they have before, too, but I've only noticed it now). Even though it's not "practical," there's something very cool about putting on a record and just sitting there and taking in the music. I'm going to fiddle with my parents' record player today ... I think it still work but it's probably been a while since it's been used. I can remember sitting and listening to all my mom's Beatles albums and my dad's Moody Blues. We got a CD player in 1984, but there was still something cool about those big LPs. Once I get it turning maybe I can dig out some of my parents' old records.

Dig for King Crimson, Robert Frip...

[BodhiBenz1987]

Originally Posted by Crazy_Nate

All of my music that I have digitally ripped from CD, I do in the FLAC format (compressed lossless). I figure, why not have the same quality as the cd? Space isn't an issue with me.

A CD that has been ripped as FLAC is about 350-500MB, so a 16GB portable audio player would be about equivalent to a decent sized CD wallet. I've been eyeballing the Cowon iAudio7 for a while now, as a replacement for carting CDs around. 16GB (flash) is about $140

I don't even have a CD player in my 300D anymore. The Apple Lossless files are each about 30-40MB, so that leaves me with plenty of room .... probably only about 15% of my playlist is the type of music where I'd notice any difference between lossless and lossy files. Most of it is rock or pop, and sounds very full in a high-quality mp3. There are a handful of songs that are more "intricate" that I'm willing to sacrifice some extra space for.

Right now the two richest things on my iPod are this album I just got (Muse) in Apple Lossless, and two Nine Inch Nails albums that were free downloads off their site in high-quality mp3. The NIN albums were also available in FLAC, m4a lossless and 24/96 WAVE, free. Pretty cool, but in that case I went with the familiar, the mp3s, and it sounds far superior to any other mp3 on my iPod. Maybe I'll re-download it as lossless and see if I can tell the difference.

I'll tell you one thing though, since I got the speaker upgrade in the 300D, I can really tell which of my files are lousy quality.

[BodhiBenz1987]

Originally Posted by Whiskeydan

Dig for King Crimson, Robert Frip...

I've never heard of them, but on reading the Wikipedia entry for King Crimson, it sounds like something I would like. If I can't find a record I can always try a YouTube search ...

[iwrock]

Originally Posted by BodhiBenz1987

I don't even have a CD player in my 300D anymore. The Apple Lossless files are each about 30-40MB, so that leaves me with plenty of room .... probably only about 15% of my playlist is the type of music where I'd notice any difference between lossless and lossy files. Most of it is rock or pop, and sounds very full in a high-quality mp3. There are a handful of songs that are more "intricate" that I'm willing to sacrifice some extra space for.

Right now the two richest things on my iPod are this album I just got (Muse) in Apple Lossless, and two Nine Inch Nails albums that were free downloads off their site in high-quality mp3. The NIN albums were also available in FLAC, m4a lossless and 24/96 WAVE, free. Pretty cool, but in that case I went with the familiar, the mp3s, and it sounds far superior to any other mp3 on my iPod. Maybe I'll re-download it as lossless and see if I can tell the difference.

I'll tell you one thing though, since I got the speaker upgrade in the 300D, I can really tell which of my files are lousy quality.

Hehehe, so true. Wait until you install an external amplifier. I bet you will get picky on which songs you listen to because of the quality.


RE the formats... You would need to rip the FLAC file into a format that iTunes would be able to recognize, which would be AAC or MP3. The iPod cannot read FLAC unless you go and install iPod linux onto it.

[BodhiBenz1987]

Originally Posted by iwrock

Hehehe, so true. Wait until you install an external amplifier. I bet you will get picky on which songs you listen to because of the quality.

Forgive my ignorance, but what do you mean by external? I already have one external to the head unit, in the trunk, an Alpine PDX-5. Since I got the system there are now certain songs that I gravitate to especially when I am in that car. I've also honestly noticed that some songs have components I never even was aware of on the old stock sound system or in the Jeep, which has a decent but boomy system. I am starting a little list, though, of songs I'd like to get in a higher quality format, even if just a higher quality mp3 (I have a few songs I downloaded long ago that are just awful quality, but good songs worth "upgrading").

Originally Posted by iwrock

RE the formats... You would need to rip the FLAC file into a format that iTunes would be able to recognize, which would be AAC or MP3. The iPod cannot read FLAC unless you go and install iPod linux onto it.

The iPod does read the ALAC (Apple Lossless) m4a files, as does iTunes, which I guess goes to figure since Apple came up with it. But, I'm not sure if it will play all m4a files or just the Apple ones. That's one reason I stuck with the little ol' mp3s on that NIN album ... the FLAC and WAVE files sound neat, but seem kind of like rocket science.

[iwrock]

Originally Posted by BodhiBenz1987

Forgive my ignorance, but what do you mean by external? I already have one external to the head unit, in the trunk, an Alpine PDX-5. Since I got the system there are now certain songs that I gravitate to especially when I am in that car. I've also honestly noticed that some songs have components I never even was aware of on the old stock sound system or in the Jeep, which has a decent but boomy system. I am starting a little list, though, of songs I'd like to get in a higher quality format, even if just a higher quality mp3 (I have a few songs I downloaded long ago that are just awful quality, but good songs worth "upgrading").

Awesome. Didn't know that. Having an external amplifier helps out in terms of controlling distortion and adding volume. Much cleaner output than just a head units internal amplifier. I have a list of "demonstration" songs that I play for people when they want to hear what my system sounds like. Eric Clapton, The Eagles, Santana, and The Who make for some awesome demonstrations.

Originally Posted by BodhiBenz1987

The iPod does read the ALAC (Apple Lossless) m4a files, as does iTunes, which I guess goes to figure since Apple came up with it. But, I'm not sure if it will play all m4a files or just the Apple ones. That's one reason I stuck with the little ol' mp3s on that NIN album ... the FLAC and WAVE files sound neat, but seem kind of like rocket science.

I would try to rip or convert the FLAC or WAVE files into ALAC or a very high quality AAC file. More than likely those mp3 files are ripped at a fairly high bit rate, to try and minimize the loss that you get with lower quality MP3 files.

[BodhiBenz1987]

Originally Posted by iwrock

Awesome. Didn't know that. Having an external amplifier helps out in terms of controlling distortion and adding volume. Much cleaner output than just a head units internal amplifier. I have a list of "demonstration" songs that I play for people when they want to hear what my system sounds like. Eric Clapton, The Eagles, Santana, and The Who make for some awesome demonstrations.

Yeah, I figured if I was dropping money on some fairly high-end speakers (although apparently Focal offers a waaaayyyyyyyy higher end ... yikes) I might as well get a good amp to get as much as I can out of them. The Alpine PDX is nice; it's 75X4 plus 300X1 for the sub. The system is not insanely loud, but very, very clean and bright, which is what I was going for. The amp also doesn't get hot at all, and is pretty small.

Oh yeah, I also have a "demonstration" playlist! I have a feeling my friends have zero interest and can't tell the difference between the boomy crap in their Hondas and the system I have, but I like to torture them anyway. A lot of times I use Coldplay's "In My Place" because, poppy or not, it has a good bassline, a bright little guitar riff and sharp drums ... and everybody's heard it on the radio and on lousy sound systems, so they can really hear how different it sounds in my car. I'd really like to get some Pink Floyd in there in a higher-quality form, though ... all of my Pink Floyd is 128 kbps. I'll have to swipe some of my dad's CDs and see if I can learn about ripping into a high-quality AAC as you mention.

Originally Posted by iwrock

I would try to rip or convert the FLAC or WAVE files into ALAC or a very high quality AAC file. More than likely those mp3 files are ripped at a fairly high bit rate, to try and minimize the loss that you get with lower quality MP3 files.

The NIN files are 320 kbps ... so that probably explains why they sound so great. NIN probably seems like a dark, edgy band to a lot of people, but they really have some incredible music ... the last album they released is all instrumental and is extremely cool ... very different.