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aklim 10-14-2009 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutzTD (Post 2316082)
I know your position, they are no better than a skin tag, I find that completely rediculous, but you are entitled to your opinion, however distatefully it is expressed

When it shows the same signs of life as you or I do, I will accord it the same status as you or I. When the GF, now wife, miscarried, all I saw was a piece of liver looking blob. As with the lawyer or astronaut example, when you achieve that status, I will give you the respect you deserve. What is ridiculous about that?

Honus 10-14-2009 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry (Post 2316087)
Surely there are lots of other obvious places to draw the line. The ancient Jews drew the line at breathing--ie birth. That seems much more obvious a line than conception since nobody even knows when conception takes place and it actually seems impossible to determine in any individual instance...

I suppose their line is as good as mine, although I find it morally wrong to abort a full-term fetus.
Quote:

It's also the obvious line that the writers of the Constitution assumed.
I'm not sure what you mean there. Are you saying that one must be born before he or she has rights under the Constitution? That's a different issue. Fetuses have no rights under the Constitution. Neither do dogs, private property, or many other things that our laws protect from harm. Society has decided to protect fetuses, but that goal is limited by the mother's Constitutional rights.
Quote:

...The conception idea also leads to certain absurdities. If it's true, it means that all the fertilized eggs that are currently frozen are actually equal human beings to adults...
No. It just means that they are human beings, which does not mean that they get all the same protections enjoyed by adults. I agree, though, my logic leads to an absurd conclusion roughly along those lines. If someone shows me better logic, I'm all ears.
Quote:

So if the current health care bill results in a requirement that everyone have health care insurance, it would mean that each of those frozen fertilized eggs would be required to purchase a health insurance policy which would cover any illnesses that they might suffer.
Not true. It is easy to define those required to have health insurance without including fetuses.

kerry 10-14-2009 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Honus (Post 2316104)
although I find it morally wrong to abort a full-term fetus..

What is the basis for this moral view? A pregnant woman has an absolute duty to carry all fetuses to term? The fetus has a right to demand of it's host that she continue hosting it until it is ready to leave?

My view is that all women have a right to choose whether or not to reproduce. No one has a right to coerce a woman to reproduce. Since the act of reproduction is a a freely chosen act, all zygotes, and fetuses and people live gratuitous lives. Our mothers could have chosen not to create us and we have no moral ground to claim that they should have. Hence, a women not being in a position to be required by duty to reproduce, can rescind her decision to reproduce at any time and be entirely within her rights.

aklim 10-14-2009 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Honus (Post 2316104)
I suppose their line is as good as mine, although I find it morally wrong to abort a full-term fetus.

It just means that they are human beings, which does not mean that they get all the same protections enjoyed by adults. I agree, though, my logic leads to an absurd conclusion roughly along those lines. If someone shows me better logic, I'm all ears.

Don't think we are talking about full term fetesus that are say 8 months old. IIRC, that procedure is banned except where the mother's life is in danger.

Doesn't that rub against the "all men are equal" thing? That means now you have different classes of human beings with different rights and responsibilities.

aklim 10-14-2009 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry (Post 2316119)
What is the basis for this moral view? A pregnant woman has an absolute duty to carry all fetuses to term? The fetus has a right to demand of it's host that she continue hosting it until it is ready to leave?

My view is that all women have a right to choose whether or not to reproduce. No one has a right to coerce a woman to reproduce. Since the act of reproduction is a a freely chosen act, all zygotes, and fetuses and people live gratuitous lives. Our mothers could have chosen not to create us and we have no moral ground to claim that they should have. Hence, a women not being in a position to be required by duty to reproduce, can rescind her decision to reproduce at any time and be entirely within her rights.

Perhaps the compromise to that is that the woman has a C-section instead of an abortion. Gives her her rights and if the fetus is able to survive, great. If not, oh well.

lutzTD 10-14-2009 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim (Post 2316088)
When it shows the same signs of life as you or I do, I will accord it the same status as you or I. When the GF, now wife, miscarried, all I saw was a piece of liver looking blob. As with the lawyer or astronaut example, when you achieve that status, I will give you the respect you deserve. What is ridiculous about that?



I am truly sorry for your and your wifes loss. i can see from your example that we are set in our opinions and must once again agree to disagree.

aklim 10-14-2009 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutzTD (Post 2316139)
I am truly sorry for your and your wifes loss. i can see from your example that we are set in our opinions and must once again agree to disagree.

Thanx. I appreciate it. Was way back in 87.


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