Is this going to be on the final exam?

I was thinking more in terms of differences imposed on societies by outside influences such as their environment (current or historical). Is it possible that a nomadic, agrarian, or industrial society would develop different fundamental characteristics? For example, some types of environments/lifestyles may favor large, stable families (agrarian), while others (industrial) may provide enough resources for a leisure/intellectual class that has the time/resources to think deep thoughts.

In a agrarian society a stable family unit may be a necessity for survival (a single person is probably not capable of surviving as a subsistence farmer). It seems that this society will favor marrying young and having many children. It also seems that a more fundamental religious tradition would support the "family values" necessary to maintain this type of lifestyle. Because this society would value stability over innovation, it would tend to be very conservative and intolerant of any "free thinking," especially if it would cause a disruption (women taking on non-traditional roles, unmarried children moving away from the farm, children choosing to remain single, etc.).

Obviously, an industrial society would tend to favor different characteristics. Due to the specialization associated with a more complex society, innovation may become more valuable than stability. This society may be more individual based than family based. Women remaining single and entering the workforce may be an advantage, men may not need a stable, large family to participate in the "family business," in fact it may be advantageous for them to remain single. This will tend to be a more diverse society, and specialization will require individuals to deal with others who may not share their "values." I suspect that this will tend to favor a more "tolerant" tradition that will be reflected in the religions (or lack of religions).

I would also suspect that the transition from one type of society to another (agrarian to industrial) would cause significant societally pressures. The traditional subsistence farmer may not be amused when his gay son decides to become a coffee house performance artist instead of providing grandchildren and helping with the harvest. The social/religious authorities are not going to adjust quickly either. It's not surprising that a few generations of unrest will be required to complete the transition.

Or, maybe not?

IF, (and I emphasize the "IF" for the benefit of our non Christian members) marriage was the origianl design by our Creator, then it would follow that anything that attacks the basic idea of marriage would be "anti-God", and quite possible mis-information encouraged by God's adversary.
Thinking along this way, it seems that Kerry's observations make a lot of sense. Societies that reject the God of the Bible would be expected to reject the institutions of that same God of the Bible. If this is what is meant by "free-thinkers", then it is what could be expected.
Given that, I expect to see many more free-thinkers in the immediate future.

Just another observation that we are all religious beings at some point---beliefs do affect actions.

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1982 300SD " Wotan" ..On the road as of Jan 8, 2007 with Historic Tags

I agree with a lot of that although the difference between agrarian and industrial I don't think is a pressure put on a society by an outside force but an internal transformation of a society. That's why I was thinking about differences of internal psychological states of single guys as opposed to married rulers of families in that transition.
In the back of my mind was the puzzle that if you looked at the world in 1200AD and compared Christian Europe to Middle Eastern/Central Asian/African Islam you would not have imagined that in 1900, the Europeans would have ruled the world. I think there are lots of reasons for that surprising change including the evolution of better sailing vessels by Europeans and the fact that the Islamic Empire was largely land based. Also the location of coal deposits around the globe favored European industrialization over Islamic. However, neither of those facts explain the reason why there have been no creative Islamic philosophers since the 1400's and little intellectual innovation that has transformed Islamic societies in the way that European societies were turned upside down. My developing hypothesis is that Muslim societies lacked enough smart single men.

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1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
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1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
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If by 'original design of our Creator' you mean 'the way humans lived in small tribal pre-literate societies' then you'll get little argument from me except to point out that modern 'nuclear families' are not the same thing as extended tribal families.
I also don't have much disagreement with the idea that we are all religious beings, except that I think it is a general human tendency. I think the issue is what kind of religion 'works' with what kind of society. I think fundamentalisms are basically patriarchy writ large and that alternative religions are necessary for non-patriarchal, modern, free societies. I think that's why religions like Buddhism have taken off in the US. The religion is individualist with little connection to patriarchal family life.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Perhaps you should define what is meant by "free society"? The term free societies is bandied about in this thread but it's definition is not clear. Do you mean the modern western world? If so has there ever been a free society prior to this? When does this free society begin in the historical context? Like I said earlier Facism, Nazism, Communism are all reletively modern products of western thought and none of them could remotely be called free. I think there is a clear divide between primitive and modern in terms of the amount of religion in a society and it's level of openness/freedom. I think that's more relevant than marriage or lack thereof itself. Perhaps the comments about agrarian vs industrial socieity is correct but Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, Democritus etc were hardly products of an industrial society.

- Peter.

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2000 GMC Sonoma
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2002 Kia Rio. Worst crap on four wheels
1981 240D 4spd stick. 389000 miles.
1984 123 200
1979 116 280S
1972 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1971 108 280S

That's a difficult question to answer. In rough, I'd say it was a society in which the individual takes precedence over the group.
My thoughts in this general direction were spurred by a student who was writing a paper on Epicurus who advocates a strong individualist stand in pursuit of life's goal of a tranquil life free of pain. He is not in favor of sex and family life. The student's response to this (she is of Hispanic Catholic heritage) is that such a choice was not possible for her given her culture's commitment to family life and values. I thought her comments were very insightful, being addressed to the real psychological/sociological options possible in her world.
Socrates is an interesting example of an anti-family values man. Some of his friends criticized him for willingly drinking the hemlock when he had young children he was responsible for. The argument fell on deaf ears.

A free society would be a society in which Emma Goldman would be happy.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Anarchists can never be happy in any society as they seek to destroy any society that exisits. I don't think that's a good definition. But your comment on the primacy of the individiual is interesting. Is it in fact possible to have a society where such is carried to it's logical extreme? Because as the freedom of the individual increases to it's ultimate expression society dissolves.

- Peter.

__________________
2021 Chevrolet Spark
Formerly...
2000 GMC Sonoma
1981 240D 4spd stick. 347000 miles. Deceased Feb 14 2021
2002 Kia Rio. Worst crap on four wheels
1981 240D 4spd stick. 389000 miles.
1984 123 200
1979 116 280S
1972 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1971 108 280S

You think too much, lol.

I disagree quite strongly with your idea of what anarchism seeks, but that discussion may be for another thread.
I'm not completely sure that society will dissolve with the increase of individual freedom. I think it will change quite radically, but probably not dissolve. Look at what's happening with gay rights. One can look at current developments as an increase in individual freedom, yet gays are now working to establish their own right to create families, establishing new basis for society.
Another example is the general difference in family life that is a result of individually oriented cultures. Children become more important than parents in some ways. Outside of the family, the interests of youth tend to trump the interest of the elders.
Does science advance in individualist cultures because it presupposes a rejection of 'Honor thy father and mother' and instead substitutes a constant critique of established opinion.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Your description of Epicurianism is right on. Many people think its simply the pursuit of pleasure. It is that, but with the twin idea of avoidance of pain. Therefore getting drunk is not something they'd do, the drunk itself is pleasureable, but it is followed by the pain of the hangover, and the true Epicurian would not do that.

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1982 300SD " Wotan" ..On the road as of Jan 8, 2007 with Historic Tags

According to at least one person, the transition of society beginning in the 1700s (commonly called the Age of Enlightenment) is in a large way attributable to the broad application of stimulants available to society. Prior to this time alcohol in various forms was a common drink. The numbing of the minds that resulted from alcohol consumption played a large role in slow changes and technological/philosophical advances of society.used

Once coffee and caffeine in other forms were both introduced and widely used, accordingly, the nature of society begin to change…

Steven Johnson, The Invention of Air – about Joseph Priestly and the influence of caffeine on the Enlightenment:
http://fora.tv/2009/01/17/Steven_Johnson_The_Invention_of_Air#chapter_08

So the question is: Did or do fundamentalist Muslim groups indulge in stimulants?

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Toyota is a leader only because their drivers block everyone behind them. Oh what a feeling.

Gay's cannot "create" families for what I would assume are self evident reasons. Thus they will always be parasitical upon hetero's for their raw material, and thus once again dependent on a more "fundamentalist" society. That's just basic biology.

That could be true. I don't see the correlation between emphasis on the interests of the youth (which seems largely to be immature narcissim to me) and the rational values of the enlightenment which are more nuanced and in terms of the technology they produce an in time come to rely upon still require functioning societies of a more traditional type to flourish.

Possibly a good question but does science really advance purely by flashes of individual brilliance? Or is it more of a collaborative endeavour?

- Peter.

__________________
2021 Chevrolet Spark
Formerly...
2000 GMC Sonoma
1981 240D 4spd stick. 347000 miles. Deceased Feb 14 2021
2002 Kia Rio. Worst crap on four wheels
1981 240D 4spd stick. 389000 miles.
1984 123 200
1979 116 280S
1972 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1971 108 280S

I disagree that it was sailing ships. I think more that the development of firearms or rifles. This lead to an empowerment of individuals. Also, since they needed skilled labor, the rise of guilds. The guilds lead to basically, labor unions and the middle class.
Part of this development was the constant invasions during the decline of the Roman empire. All of the invading hoards brought a little piece of the puzzle. The Huns developed the stirrup. This placed an importance of horses, which gave weathy people the power. This actaully took away any sembelance of democracy. This lead to a power struggle of armour or knights in Europe. Firearms were one means of dealing with armoured knights. As the effectiveness of the firearms advanced, armour became to heavy or unwiedly. Thus firearms restored some degree of democracy.
I think a lot of invensions were discovered in China. The relative stability gave the rulers the ability to maintain the status quao. So they didn't advance. Europe was in a constant flux, so any advantage was taken. I think Korea might have had the same position, but wasn't big enough to defend two front from China and Japan.
Also, natural resources such as iron ore, coal and hydropower let Europe advance.
Tom

I have heard something to the effect that islam had it's "reformation" at around that time except that the fundamentalist whackjobs won out and that was the end of any meaningful development in islamic societies since. Thus, once again it's religious fundamentalism winning out that closes the lid on civilizational advance.

In western society the englightenment won out. Possibly because of the precediing reformation which destroyed the credibility of fundamentalist christianity thus opening up the door for reason.

Why? Beacuse of some innate biological deficiency or because of the stultifying effects of islam?

- Peter.

__________________
2021 Chevrolet Spark
Formerly...
2000 GMC Sonoma
1981 240D 4spd stick. 347000 miles. Deceased Feb 14 2021
2002 Kia Rio. Worst crap on four wheels
1981 240D 4spd stick. 389000 miles.
1984 123 200
1979 116 280S
1972 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1971 108 280S

Because celibacy has no authorized legitimacy within Islam. Legitimate life is family life.
Don't know what happened to gays. Gays could escape to a monastic life or a single life in the Christian west.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13