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cmbdiesel 07-20-2010 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler (Post 2509285)
I don't blame the current President for the economic crisis, anymore than I blame Bush for it.

What I do blame the President for, and it is his fully to bear, is that he has been doing exactly the wrong things. We are in the "summer of recovery", and he celebrates this by illustrating with 3 unemployed people exactly how well goes his recovery. Remember the promise that unemployment would not exceed 8 %?
He has done much that stifles the US business engine--his economic theories are faulty--he needs to reverse course, but he never will.
The electorate will post their evaluation of his handling of the economy in November.

:puke:
:puke:
Get a grip. Dude has been making some big swings at a serious mess, and it is getting better. Maybe try to show how the current administration's actions are worse than the last one's...

MBlovr 07-20-2010 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 450slcguy (Post 2508728)
One can only hope you lose your job tomorrow. Then come back and tell me you wouldn't apply for UC benefits because your too proud to stand in line with the millions of other Americans looking for work. Talking trash is cheap until you're the one outta work, struggling to pay the bills, and realize the illegals have cornered the dish scrapping job market. Se habla espanol?

Yeah I love these tough talkers when it's somebody else that has it tough

MS Fowler 07-20-2010 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel (Post 2509520)
:puke:
:puke:
Get a grip. Dude has been making some big swings at a serious mess, and it is getting better. Maybe try to show how the current administration's actions are worse than the last one's...


Raising taxes does not help businesses to grow. Uncertainty is maybe even worse.
Government gets no points for "effort". This is the real world; not academe. Success is the only measure. So far the President's economic actions have not produced the jobs he promised.
Yeah, its a tough job. Why did he want it?

t walgamuth 07-21-2010 07:08 AM

W dug a huge hole. Many of the causes of lost jobs are also unrelated to anything the pres does I believe. I also thought the underlying economy was very weak for a long time but propped up by easy and cheap credit.

O is doing his best and results are cautiously positive, but it will take time to do permanent good on the job situation.

75Sv1 07-21-2010 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JollyRoger (Post 2509371)
We had eight years of totally unfettered, corrupt anarcho-capitalism run by a government that serves the very rich, instead of the common peple. Every few decades, we all get scammed by this crap -what they call 'conservatism' is really a form of anarchy, it is a radical view of how markets should operate, as radical as communism, this time it was packaged to us as "neo-conism" - the newest name for anarcho-capitalism. Governments are meant to be referees, to keep the system fair for everyone. The far-right worldview denies this reality and seeks to destroy all government involvement in the market place. Like any game without a referee, the markets eventually collapse under the weight of fraud and thievery. Nothing new, we learn this every few generations or so - anarcho-capitalism, the unregulated market, only makes the rich richer, and destroys everything else.

The collapse of our economy is pretty simple really. George Bush, as head of the executive branch, deregulated the economy, a long time dream of right wing ideologues, by appointing foxes to run every regulatory hen house in government. For eight years, banks and investment houses engaged in reckless schemes, creating insane new investment vehicles that were then rated by the various bond rating agencies as "not insane" while Bush's SEC, headed by Big Foxy Chris Cox, looked the other way. They bundled mortgages by the thousands together, and then sold various side bets on them in the form of derivatives and credit default swaps, and the SEC never batted an eye. The problem was, most of the mortgages were adjustable rate con jobs, and when the ARMS adjusted upward, millions of home owners became upside down in their mortgages, which caused a problem for the owners of the mortgage securities - namely, how the hell did they know exactly what their security was worth ? So they started dumping them. At the same time, the big investment banks, who knew they were selling crap and had been smart enough to buy credit insurance on this pile of $hit, began to call in their insurance policies, leading to the collapse of AIG. Firms that were not as well hedged, Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers, a number of big investment banks, collapsed next. From there, it was all just a house of cards, as the stock market collapsed and the bail outs began, investors began a mass conversion of assets into cash, and have been sitting on the sidelines ever since.

We have all been the victims of a massive fraud. The aim is to redistribute the wealth. For most of the last century, the largest holder of private wealth in the world was the US middle class. During the Bush years, we watched the wealthy finance a war to guarantee their access to Iraq's oil by saddling this middle class with the cost. We then watched them increase their short-term profits astronomically by screwing working people in this country out of their jobs under the banner of "free trade". We have stood by while they fattened their fortunes by again borrowing a massive amount of money from our grandchildren, which they then distributed amongst themselves as phony "tax cuts" - deficit spending used as a wealth re-distribution mechanism. We stood by as they created an enormous international Ponzi Con out of credit deriavitives backed by shaky mortgages, and then stuck us with the bill.

But the single greatest act that stands as the beginning of our downfall was the utter evil of invading Iraq, and turning our budget surplus into a deficit in the process. As Tom Ricks put it in his forward to the book "Fiasco", the invasion of Iraq will be seen by future historians as the most profligate act in American history. The wages of that sin is what we are earning today. The budget surpluses of a decade, what was essentially our national kid's college fund, was gambled and lost in the sands of Iraq, and then the rest of the family belongings went into the Chinese pawn shop to pay for tax cuts for the richest, and then what was left in the cupboard was pissed away in an attempt to salvage a destroyed economy - an economy destroyed by anarcho-capitalism. We sowed. Now we reap. Blame Obama all you want, history will see the simplicity of it all: the Presidency of George Bush destroyed this country.

Actually, I think we had 16 years of unfettered corperate greed. OK, maybe a lot longer than that. There were some problems in the Clinton years:
http://www.ickypeople.com/2008/04/bill-clinton-major-part-in-subprime.html
All was not rosey. The World Trade Center was bombed then too. I'm not saying Bush II hasn't had a negitive effect. Both parties are corrupt. I think Clinton took some campaign funds from foreign interest.
Tom

raymr 07-21-2010 09:11 AM

We need a simplified tax code and health care options to make it easier for people to start their own small businesses. There's too many horror stories about the IRS coming down on small business owners who made tax mistakes, that would sometimes put them out of business. Health care is another reason people stay in lousy non-productive jobs instead of branching out on their own.

JollyRoger 07-21-2010 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler (Post 2509537)
Raising taxes does not help businesses to grow. Uncertainty is maybe even worse.
Government gets no points for "effort". This is the real world; not academe. Success is the only measure. So far the President's economic actions have not produced the jobs he promised.
Yeah, its a tough job. Why did he want it?

But the problem has been how things balance out in the total equation. Yes, raising taxes does not help businesses to grow, agreed, you win that point - but a government that does not pay it's bills because of insufficient cash flow must now compete for capital with business, and that's not going to help business grow either.

The Bush tax cuts were accompanied by reckless spending endeavors: a Prescription Drug Bill that is one of the biggest components of the so-called "Obama deficit" and two wars on the national credit card - tax cuts during a war, unheard of economically. The under-financing of government IS the Bush legacy. The true path to prosperity is the one neither party has been able to give us - a balanced budget. And the real fault lies with the American People themselves, who vote in those who promise fat government programs and then vote in those who claim that prosperity comes from starving the government of the funds necessary to pay for it.

JollyRoger 07-21-2010 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raymr (Post 2509707)
We need a simplified tax code and health care options to make it easier for people to start their own small businesses. There's too many horror stories about the IRS coming down on small business owners who made tax mistakes, that would sometimes put them out of business. Health care is another reason people stay in lousy non-productive jobs instead of branching out on their own.

Agreed.

dynalow 07-21-2010 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raymr (Post 2509707)
We need a simplified tax code and health care options to make it easier for people to start their own small businesses. There's too many horror stories about the IRS coming down on small business owners who made tax mistakes, that would sometimes put them out of business. Health care is another reason people stay in lousy non-productive jobs instead of branching out on their own.

In a 2300 page health care bill and a 2200 page financial regulatory bill, just how many changes do you suppose were made to the Internal Revenue Code.
I haven't read anything on it, but my educated guess is over 1,000.

Just wait until this HC law fully kicks in and the IRS finds itself front and center in establishing income levels, whose covered, whose's supposed to be fined, etc. You think the IRS code enforcement and service is bad now? Oh Boy! :rolleyes:

MS Fowler 07-21-2010 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JollyRoger (Post 2509718)
But the problem has been how things balance out in the total equation. Yes, raising taxes does not help businesses to grow, agreed, you win that point - but a government that does not pay it's bills because of insufficient cash flow must now compete for capital with business, and that's not going to help business grow either.

The Bush tax cuts were accompanied by reckless spending endeavors: a Prescription Drug Bill that is one of the biggest components of the so-called "Obama deficit" and two wars on the national credit card - tax cuts during a war, unheard of economically. The under-financing of government IS the Bush legacy. The true path to prosperity is the one neither party has been able to give us - a balanced budget. And the real fault lies with the American People themselves, who vote in those who promise fat government programs and then vote in those who claim that prosperity comes from starving the government of the funds necessary to pay for it.

I agree almost completely with you. I also decried Bush's and the repub's spending at the time it was happening.


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