Old style sash window questions.

[dynalow]

Being the proud () owner of a home built in 1886, I have had to repair many broken sash cords or in a couple of instances chains where they were repaired sometime between then and today. Over the weekend we were working on a 3rd floor window which was constructed differently than the others in the house.
The window is a small two piece double sash on each piece. Routine stuff. It also has a third single piece 4 pane hinged window which opens inward. The total window area is about 2' x 4'.
The sides of the frame have the typical channel cut for the wooden separator/divider slat to rest and keep the top window in place. The unusual thing is that the bottom window has no trim to keep it in place. This would be the necessary result of having the 3rd window. The 3rd window would not swing closed with any lower window molding.

In trying to figure out why the 3rd window and the difference in channeling from the other windows in the house, the only reason I can come up with is that the concept was to be able to remove both hung windows in warmer months and double the air flow. Then close the hinged window when it rained.

The other side of the house has an identical window, almost directly opposite the one we just repaired. The only difference is that window is asided a staircase and at a height level so unreachable that it is totally impractical to think of opening and closing it routinely. I can't remember it ever being opened. The windows face south and north. The prevailing wind in summer is S/SE. The south side window is fortunately the working window.

So, I am left thinking that the design was to permit the double hung windows to be removed in warmer weather for increased air flow straight across the third floor to keep the entire house cooler. Any old house owners have any ideas?

And another curiosity: Why would the 1886 contract call for Florida pine floor boards for the first floor and VA pine for the second and third floors ??? That one beats the heck out of me? IS FL pine harder?

[Chas H]

Dunno about the windows, but it is not uncommon to use a lesser grade flooring in the upper floors. As to hardness, how dented and beat up is the Florida pine? Which might be another name for hart/hard/heart pine and that is a very desirable flooring, according to Norm Abram.
Do a search for heart pine, which I believe is what you have. Also known as Southern Longleaf Pine. There is no more old growth of this species extant, so your Florida pine floors are quite valuable.

[The Clk Man]

Originally Posted by dynalow

Being the proud () owner of a home built in 1886, I have had to repair many broken sash cords or in a couple of instances chains where they were repaired sometime between then and today. Over the weekend we were working on a 3rd floor window which was constructed differently than the others in the house.
The window is a small two piece double sash on each piece. Routine stuff. It also has a third single piece 4 pane hinged window which opens inward. The total window area is about 2' x 4'.
The sides of the frame have the typical channel cut for the wooden separator/divider slat to rest and keep the top window in place. The unusual thing is that the bottom window has no trim to keep it in place. This would be the necessary result of having the 3rd window. The 3rd window would not swing closed with any lower window molding.

In trying to figure out why the 3rd window and the difference in channeling from the other windows in the house, the only reason I can come up with is that the concept was to be able to remove both hung windows in warmer months and double the air flow. Then close the hinged window when it rained.

The other side of the house has an identical window, almost directly opposite the one we just repaired. The only difference is that window is asided a staircase and at a height level so unreachable that it is totally impractical to think of opening and closing it routinely. I can't remember it ever being opened. The windows face south and north. The prevailing wind in summer is S/SE. The south side window is fortunately the working window.

So, I am left thinking that the design was to permit the double hung windows to be removed in warmer weather for increased air flow straight across the third floor to keep the entire house cooler. Any old house owners have any ideas?

And another curiosity: Why would the 1886 contract call for Florida pine floor boards for the first floor and VA pine for the second and third floors ??? That one beats the heck out of me? IS FL pine harder?

Duh!!!! Florida in in a different country. I think it's in Cuba.

[cmbdiesel]

Originally Posted by dynalow

Being the proud () owner of a home built in 1886, I have had to repair many broken sash cords or in a couple of instances chains where they were repaired sometime between then and today. Over the weekend we were working on a 3rd floor window which was constructed differently than the others in the house.
The window is a small two piece double sash on each piece. Routine stuff. It also has a third single piece 4 pane hinged window which opens inward. The total window area is about 2' x 4'.
The sides of the frame have the typical channel cut for the wooden separator/divider slat to rest and keep the top window in place. The unusual thing is that the bottom window has no trim to keep it in place. This would be the necessary result of having the 3rd window. The 3rd window would not swing closed with any lower window molding.

In trying to figure out why the 3rd window and the difference in channeling from the other windows in the house, the only reason I can come up with is that the concept was to be able to remove both hung windows in warmer months and double the air flow. Then close the hinged window when it rained.

The other side of the house has an identical window, almost directly opposite the one we just repaired. The only difference is that window is asided a staircase and at a height level so unreachable that it is totally impractical to think of opening and closing it routinely. I can't remember it ever being opened. The windows face south and north. The prevailing wind in summer is S/SE. The south side window is fortunately the working window.

So, I am left thinking that the design was to permit the double hung windows to be removed in warmer weather for increased air flow straight across the third floor to keep the entire house cooler. Any old house owners have any ideas?

And another curiosity: Why would the 1886 contract call for Florida pine floor boards for the first floor and VA pine for the second and third floors ??? That one beats the heck out of me? IS FL pine harder?

Having grown up in an old house (1844) I would imagine that you may be looking at revisions to the original window. The addition of the third, hinged glass, smacks of alteration. Quite possibly you hit the nail on the head with the cross ventilation theory. Also, what about possible changes to the floor plan? That could explain the other hinged glass being so high off the floor. It can be tough to tell when old houses have been modified, as the folks that owned and worked on them when they were still fairly new, were conscientious about their work, and seldom left behind scars from their remodeling.

Got any pictures? Window or house. Always like to see old houses and the unique features that abound in them.

[Billybob]

Originally Posted by dynalow

Being the proud () owner of a home built in 1886, I have had to repair many broken sash cords or in a couple of instances chains where they were repaired sometime between then and today. Over the weekend we were working on a 3rd floor window which was constructed differently than the others in the house.
The window is a small two piece double sash on each piece. Routine stuff. It also has a third single piece 4 pane hinged window which opens inward. The total window area is about 2' x 4'.
The sides of the frame have the typical channel cut for the wooden separator/divider slat to rest and keep the top window in place. The unusual thing is that the bottom window has no trim to keep it in place. This would be the necessary result of having the 3rd window. The 3rd window would not swing closed with any lower window molding.

In trying to figure out why the 3rd window and the difference in channeling from the other windows in the house, the only reason I can come up with is that the concept was to be able to remove both hung windows in warmer months and double the air flow. Then close the hinged window when it rained.

The other side of the house has an identical window, almost directly opposite the one we just repaired. The only difference is that window is asided a staircase and at a height level so unreachable that it is totally impractical to think of opening and closing it routinely. I can't remember it ever being opened. The windows face south and north. The prevailing wind in summer is S/SE. The south side window is fortunately the working window.

So, I am left thinking that the design was to permit the double hung windows to be removed in warmer weather for increased air flow straight across the third floor to keep the entire house cooler. Any old house owners have any ideas?

And another curiosity: Why would the 1886 contract call for Florida pine floor boards for the first floor and VA pine for the second and third floors ??? That one beats the heck out of me? IS FL pine harder?

Regarding the Florida pine. I'll assume it may be similar to what was used in early south Florida building known locally as Dade County Pine. This lumber has extremely high resin content and is just about impossible to drive today's nails into. As a young guy I did some building in Palm Beach on homes built around the turn of the century, that lumber in them is rock hard and very heavy, the corners are as crisp and sharp as can be. When cut the resin is still saturating the wood and the wood is almost a rosey red color. Any we salvaged from a job was cherished.

It would not suprise me that it would have been a premium lumber in it's day and spec'd for the first level flooring as that's what the the home owner wanted to present to visitors. The high resin content would make it durable, rot resistent, and attractive.

[LUVMBDiesels]

I dunno about these newer homes (mine is from 1825) and my windows don't even have sash weights! or cables or pulleys or anything to make you thing the weights ended up in a WWII scrap drive!

I agree with the windows being an addition. It sounds like a great idea!

Also the flooring is consistent with what I know. There is a high grade chestnut floor down on the first floor in my house and a much lower grade, but still wide plank chestnut, floor upstairs. Some doofus covered the first floor floorboard with thin oak strips probably around the turn of the last century when they installed the cast iron steam radiators! The high grade floors, better ceilings and fancier doors are all for showing off in the public spaces of the house. The private spaces were much simpler

I will post pix on a website as the house is now for sale...

[dynalow]

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

Having grown up in an old house (1844) I would imagine that you may be looking at revisions to the original window. The addition of the third, hinged glass, smacks of alteration. Quite possibly you hit the nail on the head with the cross ventilation theory. Also, what about possible changes to the floor plan? That could explain the other hinged glass being so high off the floor. It can be tough to tell when old houses have been modified, as the folks that owned and worked on them when they were still fairly new, were conscientious about their work, and seldom left behind scars from their remodeling.

Got any pictures? Window or house. Always like to see old houses and the unique features that abound in them.

I think you are right with the mod thought. The hinges on the hinged window look to be almost galvanized metal, not at all like the hardware elsewhere in the house.
I don't think the floor plan or structure has been changed. The house next door was built at the same time under the same contract by the same owner and builder. It has been modified more over the years. The cost to build was$6,364 per house.

[t walgamuth]

Originally Posted by Chas H

Dunno about the windows, but it is not uncommon to use a lesser grade flooring in the upper floors. As to hardness, how dented and beat up is the Florida pine? Which might be another name for hart/hard/heart pine and that is a very desirable flooring, according to Norm Abram.
Do a search for heart pine, which I believe is what you have. Also known as Southern Longleaf Pine. There is no more old growth of this species extant, so your Florida pine floors are quite valuable.

This sounds about right.

Do you have pics of the windows described?

[dynalow]

Originally Posted by Chas H

Dunno about the windows, but it is not uncommon to use a lesser grade flooring in the upper floors. As to hardness, how dented and beat up is the Florida pine? Which might be another name for hart/hard/heart pine and that is a very desirable flooring, according to Norm Abram.
Do a search for heart pine, which I believe is what you have. Also known as Southern Longleaf Pine. There is no more old growth of this species extant, so your Florida pine floors are quite valuable.

That's very interesting. Thanks.The floors are in pretty fair condition. No dents to speak of. Somewhere along the way the floors were painted. First floor painted white. Top 2 floors are painted brown. Funny thing though, a former owner converted it to a two unit rental. In the process he put down b&w asphalt floor tiles in the first floor hallway. My sister wants to remove it put down new b&w stone/granite tiles. (Go figure!)
I don't mind removing the old tiles, which have held up well. But if the flooring beneath is nice looking rare pine, I think it ought to remain uncovered.
I don't think we can do damage to it. Half of the foot traffic is barefeoot or flip flops anyway

Feb. 2010 Winter splendor.


Not the window in question. Just a previous repair of first floor window.btw, not me.

[Chas H]

If there is nice Florida pine lurking under the tile, it'd be nice to uncover it. If you have worries about traffic, a skinny rug or 2 will protect the travelled part but allow the wood to shine through on the sides.

[my83300cd]

I've seen lots of older houses in CT with wood framed screens in the gable end attic window during the summer and then glass storm window in the winter. The eave overhang is usually deep enough to prevent rain from entering, unless is a high wind storm.

As to flooring- if you look at older houses often you'll see the finish/trim level decrease the higher you go in the house. An old yankee thing in New England was to have clapboards on the front and cedar shingles on the sides and back.

[cmbdiesel]

Nice looking house!

[dynalow]

Originally Posted by Chas H

If there is nice Florida pine lurking under the tile, it'd be nice to uncover it. If you have worries about traffic, a skinny rug or 2 will protect the travelled part but allow the wood to shine through on the sides.

Now you've got me thinking about that Chas.
Let's discuss safe and easy ways to remove old 6" asphalt floor tiles without scraping or scratching the underlying flooring. What was the common adhesive when they became in style? These I guess were put down in the early 50's. Thank the Lord that our house escaped asbestos exterior siding. (Our next door "twin" had that exterior overlay. Looks sorta crummy after 50 years)



And what would the natural color or tone of 1886 "Florida" pine be? Any ideas?
Even if it were painted, it might be nice to strip and restore to it's natural tone.

[Chas H]

Originally Posted by dynalow

Now you've got me thinking about that Chas.
Let's discuss safe and easy ways to remove old 6" asphalt floor tiles without scraping or scratching the underlying flooring. What was the common adhesive when they became in style? These I guess were put down in the early 50's. Thank the Lord that our house escaped asbestos exterior siding. (Our next door "twin" had that exterior overlay. Looks sorta crummy after 50 years)



And what would the natural color or tone of 1886 "Florida" pine be? Any ideas?
Even if it were painted, it might be nice to strip and restore to it's natural tone.

From what I have seen on This Old House, heart pine is light brown to dark brown in strips following the grain. It's very attractive.
That tile could well contain asbestos, so you might want to research what your local ordinances have to say about its removal. I have no idea about the best way to take up the tile.

[dynalow]

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

Nice looking house!

Thanks, BUT....

Nothin but work tho. (This is why I skipped Chadfest this weekend.)
Guy walked by the house on his way to the beach Sunday and asked us "Do you do this for a living or is this your house?"
Guess we looked the part of painters?