Why we should not go to war...

[Hatterasguy]

The election is taking up lots of media time.

But lets not forget about North Korea and Chinese increasing tensions with Japan.

China - Hell March - the largest army in the world - FULL (Official) - YouTube

This is why I think we should never go to war with China. The American people have not the slightest grasp about what kind of war Japan is dragging us towards.

Right now and since WW2 we have fought nothing but piss ant army's really. I don't think the American public can absorb the number of causalities fighting a real army will cause.

[Hatterasguy]

China ZTZ 99 MBT on City Road - YouTube

This is what cities who don't properly tote the party line get, and what we would be facing.

Not BS Republican Guard units. Highly trained and fanatical tank units with equipment on the level of any countries today. Ie they are going to pop Abrams like we pop theirs, no one sided battles.

[chilcutt]

When the time is right...China will make it's move.




At that time the West will be nothing more than an Ant facing a Dragon.



Believe that.

[cmac2012]

Originally Posted by chilcutt

When the time is right...China will make it's move.

At that time the West will be nothing more than an Ant facing a Dragon.

Believe that.

Hard to say. China is in an ongoing water crisis. It might ultimately motivate wars for territory but it will also serve as a governor on their strength. I read that the desert has reached within 30 miles of Beijing.

The desertification of China

Beijing's Desert Storm

The desert is sweeping into China's valleys, choking rivers and consuming precious farm land. Beijing has responded with massive tree-planting campaigns, but the Great Green Walls may not be able to buffer the sand, which could cover the capital in a few years.

Few people think of China as a desert nation, yet it is among the world's largest. More than 27%, or 2.5 million square kilometers, of the country comprises useless sand (just 7% of Chinese land feeds about a quarter of the world's population). A Ministry of Science and Technology task force says desertification costs China about $2-3 billion annually, while 800 km of railway and thousands of kilometers of roads are blocked by sedimentation. An estimated 110 million people suffer firsthand from the impacts of desertification and, by official reports, another 2,500 sq km turns to desert each year.

This is nothing new, of course. In the 4th century B.C. Chinese philosopher Mencius (Mengzi) wrote about desertification and its human causes, including tree-cutting and overgrazing. Experts argue over the reasons and consequences, but all agree that Chinese deserts are on the move. Sand from the distant Gobi threatens even Beijing, which some scientists say could be silted over within a few years. Dunes forming just 70 km from the capital may be drifting south at 20-25 km a year. Conservative estimates say 3 km a year. And despite massive spending on land reclamation and replanting, China is falling behind.

OK, maybe 30 miles isn't accurate. But 70 km is about 42 miles.

[chilcutt]

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Hard to say. China is in an ongoing water crisis. It might ultimately motivate wars for territory but it will also serve as a governor on their strength. I read that the desert has reached within 30 miles of Beijing.

The desertification of China



OK, maybe 30 miles isn't accurate. But 70 km is about 42 miles.

They are working very closely with Singapore on De-salienation projects.
Also, with expanding their view 25-40 years out...at which-Singapore are masters at.

I am sure that some interest in building either canal's or pipelines have been discussed to tackle this issue.

[Botnst]

Originally Posted by chilcutt

They are working very closely with Singapore on De-salienation projects.
Also, with expanding their view 25-40 years out...at which-Singapore are masters at.

I am sure that some interest in building either canal's or pipelines have been discussed to tackle this issue.

Desalination, it current technology, works for 10k's to 100k's population. Not 1,000k's to 10,000k's. Maybe the oil states will develop something mre efficient than reverse osmosis. But it isn't here, now.

China, without discussion with its neighbors, has dammed the Mekong and tributaries and other rivers that exit it's boundaries. This has resulted in throttling the river and lowering availability to Indochina. Those countries are terrified.

Also, Chinese claims on the offshore hydrocarbons hs put it in direct conflict with similar claims from Taiwan, Philippines, Vietnam, and Indonesia.

Some people claim China has no territorial ambitions. Poppycock, say the Tibetans.

[cullennewsom]

Originally Posted by Botnst

Desalination, it current technology, works for 10k's to 100k's population. Not 1,000k's to 10,000k's. Maybe the oil states will develop something mre efficient than reverse osmosis. But it isn't here, now.

China, without discussion with its neighbors, has dammed the Mekong and tributaries and other rivers that exit it's boundaries. This has resulted in throttling the river and lowering availability to Indochina. Those countries are terrified.

Also, Chinese claims on the offshore hydrocarbons hs put it in direct conflict with similar claims from Taiwan, Philippines, Vietnam, and Indonesia.

Some people claim China has no territorial ambitions. Poppycock, say the Tibetans.

You need LFTR or some other disruptive energy tech with fantastically better efficiency before desalination with current desalinization tech becomes feasible.

Yeah, even though it sort of goes against my previous post, I'd agree that the smaller countries in southeast Asia (the ones nobody really cares about) have reason to worry. I still don't see military invasion happening though. I'd expect economic / resource deprivation as you've alluded to.

[cmac2012]

Originally Posted by Botnst

Desalination, it current technology, works for 10k's to 100k's population. Not 1,000k's to 10,000k's. Maybe the oil states will develop something mre efficient than reverse osmosis. But it isn't here, now.

China, without discussion with its neighbors, has dammed the Mekong and tributaries and other rivers that exit it's boundaries. This has resulted in throttling the river and lowering availability to Indochina. Those countries are terrified.

Also, Chinese claims on the offshore hydrocarbons has put it in direct conflict with similar claims from Taiwan, Philippines, Vietnam, and Indonesia.

Some people claim China has no territorial ambitions. Poppycock, say the Tibetans.

It is a hard story. Even if desal could provide needed water, the problems of overgrazing, over-farming, and over-logging (of the firewood variety) would still be in place with sandstorms extending the desert's reach.

People who sneer at the dangers of environmental destruction and overpopulation should take a long look at events in China.

[cmbdiesel]

Originally Posted by chilcutt

When the time is right...China will make it's move.

At that time the West will be nothing more than an Ant facing a Dragon.

Believe that.

Never gonna happen.

We are their market, they will protect us unlike anything you've ever seen.

[chilcutt]

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

Never gonna happen.

We are their market, they will protect us unlike anything you've ever seen.

You will make good slaves to you're new Masters.



Never say Never...

[Jim B.]

Originally Posted by chilcutt

When the time is right...China will make it's move.




At that time the West will be nothing more than an Ant facing a Dragon.



Believe that.

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

Never gonna happen.

We are their market, they will protect us unlike anything you've ever seen.

The moon is made of green cheese...

[retmil46]

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

Right now and since WW2 we have fought nothing but piss ant army's really. I don't think the American public can absorb the number of causalities fighting a real army will cause.

Hell, forget the public - the MILITARY couldn't absorb that type of casualties as it stands - an all volunteer force, people and equipment worn out by over ten years of fighting two attrition/guerilla wars?

Only one way you could muster the personnel necessary to fight that war - and if BO even whispered the word "draft", his approval ratings would end up making Congress look good by comparison. Canada would become a VERY popular tourist destination amongst the 18 - 35 age group once again.

I don't think the powers that be in both countries would allow it to come to the point of us getting into a war with China - in short, it'd be bad for business - fiscally and economically - not only would it tank our two economies, but probably drag the rest of the world down with us as well.

Besides, from what I can gather perusing some foreign news outlets, BO is a little preoccupied with Libya and Syria right now - as in we've been doing a little old-fashioned gun running via Libya thru Turkey into Syria - problem is, a goodly portion of the arms we're sending, including Stinger missles, is ending up in the hands of our old "friends" from Al-Queada - who seem to coincidentally make up a good portion of the "freedom fighters" in Syria - and that Turkey is basically giving them safe haven, allowing them to train and reequip at a base inside Turkey - and that the government forces had managed to capture some "advisors" from a certain outfit, that used to go by the name of Blackwater.

Ooops.

Perhaps that has something to do with the cryptic comment about the good general not testifying at the Benghazi hearings - why bother mentioning that, when he's ostensibly resigning because of an extramarital affair?

[layback40]

China is already buying land where ever they can.
Japan has little or no natural resources so its of little long term use. They will just slowly take over big biz & avoid bloodshed.

[cullennewsom]

If there is ever a war between the US and China. China will win it without ever firing a shot*. They know that to try and match us with wasteful military spending is a fool's errand. They might pretend to do so, but only to make us spend like crazy. They will beat us with trade. We won't be beaten so much as we just won't have the same level of prosperity or trade. The way they will do that is to copy our tech, use it to train a generation of engineers (done), and then begin improving upon it (next on the agenda). But even if your hypothesis (of a fearsome Chinese military) were true (maybe someday); I can not see our country shy-ing away from a fight due to cowardice, even in the case of overwhelming odds.

• China spends like 2% of it's GDP on military spending. We spend 4-5-ish (and our GDP is still bigger).
• China has only ever "invaded" Tibet, and Korea. Every other war has been defensive (or internal). I doubt they would have bothered with Korea if the rest of the world hadn't been acting a fool in WWII.
• China keeps the Norks fed now just to keep them all from bum-rushing the north eastern provinces. But they are as embarrassed by the Norks as you'd expect. The Norks are their crazy Appalachian cousins which they don't like to talk about or be compared to. That, and the CCP can't let a Communist country fail for PR issues.
• The Japanese, boy do they hate the Japanese. You can't imagine. Even so, what reason do they have for aggressive action against Japan? What would that win them, besides the enmity of the world? They would be shunned, even without considering the US/NATO response.
• Guns and bullets will not win any sustained conflict. To win a sustained conflict you need resources and manufacturing.

* IMO the Chinese have opted for the fast-growth parts of capitalism, while keeping as much of the central planning / socioeconomic planning stuff as they can. They may in fact want to challenge us militarily some day, but that day is long away (2050-ish). We could hasten the arrival of that day by sustaining our unproductive Reagan-era mindset of ridiculous spending on current and past-era military tech. But, no matter how badly some Chinese nationalists within the CCP may wish to challenge the west, they have to balance military growth against the desire of its people for improved quality of life.

[Mike Murrell]

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

Right now and since WW2 we have fought nothing but piss ant army's really. I don't think the American public can absorb the number of causalities fighting a real army will cause.

How many times were you engaged in a fire fight with a North Vietnamese infantry unit? I'd venture a guess....none. U. S troops fought two armies in South Vietnam - the citizen soldier variety whose skills/determination varied and the well-armed; well-trained North Vietnamese who kicked the crap out of China in a short-lived scuffle shortly after the U. S. left in April 1975.

The American people know good and well what a conflict with China or N. Korea would be like. The gene pool has dried up, but we're not quite that far gone just yet.