The hammer killer fireman killer had a shotgun to back up his "assault" rifle.

This crime has some similarities

April 16, 2007 Seung-Hui Cho
32 killed, 17 wounded and 6 injured escaping

Seung-Hui Cho - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Had known Mental issues, legal Alien, Passed the Back Round Check (did not say He had mental issues and Even though the a Court had ordered Treatment for those Mental Health issues evidently did not show up in the Back Round Check), bought 2 Hand Guns and used a used the Glock 19 pistol; Cho fired more than 170 shots during the killing spree, evidence technicians finding at least 17 empty Magazines at the scene

"On December 13, 2005, Cho was found "mentally ill and in need of hospitalization" by New River Valley Community Services Board.[65] The physician who examined Cho noted that he had a flat affect and depressed mood, even though Cho "denied suicidal thoughts and did not acknowledge symptoms of a thought disorder."[65] Based on this mental health examination and because Cho was suspected of being "an imminent danger to himself or others", he was detained temporarily at Carilion St. Albans Behavioral Health Center in Radford, Virginia, pending a commitment hearing before the Montgomery County, Virginia district court.[65]"

"Virginia Special Justice Paul Barnett certified in an order that Cho "presented an imminent danger to himself as a result of mental illness," but instead recommended treatment for Cho as an outpatient. On December 14, 2005, Cho was released from the mental health facility after Judge Barnett ordered Cho to undergo mental health treatment on an outpatient basis,[66] with a directive for the "court-ordered [outpatient] to follow all recommended treatments." Since Cho underwent only a minimal psychiatric assessment,[65] the true diagnosis for Cho's mental health status remains unknown."
"Investigative panel report

In the aftermath of the killing spree, Virginia Governor Timothy Kaine (D) appointed a panel to investigate the campus shootings, with plans for the panel to submit a report of its findings in approximately two to three months. Kaine also invited former Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge to join the panel to "review Cho’s mental health history and how police responded to the tragedy."[112] To help investigate and analyze the emergency response surrounding the Virginia Tech shootings, Kaine hired the same company that investigated the Columbine High School massacre.[113]

The panel's final report devoted more than 30 pages to detailing Cho's mental health history. The report criticized Virginia Tech educators, administrators and mental health staff in failing to "connect the dots" from numerous incidents that were warning signs of Cho's mental instability beginning in his junior year. The report concluded that the school's mental health systems "failed for lack of resources, incorrect interpretation of privacy laws, and passivity."[35] The report called Virginia's mental health laws "flawed" and its mental health services "inadequate". The report also confirmed that Cho was able to purchase two guns in violation of federal law because of Virginia's inadequate background check requirements"

In the above stuff a non-citizen (leagal Alien) with know and certified Mental illness lies on His application to buy a Gun. Despite know and Court certified Mental Illness He passes is backround check.

Magazines. 170 Shots fired 17 empty Magazines found. This sounds like they were 10 round/shot Magazines. After 10 rounds/shots a Magazine is considered a High Copacity Magazine.

This particular situation Has a some of the Elements that many of the people posted wanted. Back Round Check and the Maginzine size limitation.
The result was 32 killed, 17 wounded and 6 injured escaping.

I don't see anything in the above stuff that I read or on the site that would indcate the NRA or any of the Members of the NRA could be liable.

This crime has some similarities

April 16, 2007 Seung-Hui Cho
32 killed, 17 wounded and 6 injured escaping

Seung-Hui Cho - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Had known Mental issues, legal Alien, Passed the Back Round Check (did not say He had mental issues and Even though the a Court had ordered Treatment for those Mental Health issues evidently did not show up in the Back Round Check), bought 2 Hand Guns and used a used the Glock 19 pistol; Cho fired more than 170 shots during the killing spree, evidence technicians finding at least 17 empty Magazines at the scene

"On December 13, 2005, Cho was found "mentally ill and in need of hospitalization" by New River Valley Community Services Board.[65] The physician who examined Cho noted that he had a flat affect and depressed mood, even though Cho "denied suicidal thoughts and did not acknowledge symptoms of a thought disorder."[65] Based on this mental health examination and because Cho was suspected of being "an imminent danger to himself or others", he was detained temporarily at Carilion St. Albans Behavioral Health Center in Radford, Virginia, pending a commitment hearing before the Montgomery County, Virginia district court.[65]"

"Virginia Special Justice Paul Barnett certified in an order that Cho "presented an imminent danger to himself as a result of mental illness," but instead recommended treatment for Cho as an outpatient. On December 14, 2005, Cho was released from the mental health facility after Judge Barnett ordered Cho to undergo mental health treatment on an outpatient basis,[66] with a directive for the "court-ordered [outpatient] to follow all recommended treatments." Since Cho underwent only a minimal psychiatric assessment,[65] the true diagnosis for Cho's mental health status remains unknown."
"Investigative panel report

In the aftermath of the killing spree, Virginia Governor Timothy Kaine (D) appointed a panel to investigate the campus shootings, with plans for the panel to submit a report of its findings in approximately two to three months. Kaine also invited former Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge to join the panel to "review Cho’s mental health history and how police responded to the tragedy."[112] To help investigate and analyze the emergency response surrounding the Virginia Tech shootings, Kaine hired the same company that investigated the Columbine High School massacre.[113]

The panel's final report devoted more than 30 pages to detailing Cho's mental health history. The report criticized Virginia Tech educators, administrators and mental health staff in failing to "connect the dots" from numerous incidents that were warning signs of Cho's mental instability beginning in his junior year. The report concluded that the school's mental health systems "failed for lack of resources, incorrect interpretation of privacy laws, and passivity."[35] The report called Virginia's mental health laws "flawed" and its mental health services "inadequate". The report also confirmed that Cho was able to purchase two guns in violation of federal law because of Virginia's inadequate background check requirements"

In the above stuff a non-citizen (leagal Alien) with know and certified Mental illness lies on His application to buy a Gun. Despite know and Court certified Mental Illness He passes is backround check.

Magazines. 170 Shots fired 17 empty Magazines found. This sounds like they were 10 round/shot Magazines. After 10 rounds/shots a Magazine is considered a High Copacity Magazine.

This particular situation Has a some of the Elements that many of the people posted wanted. Back Round Check and the Maginzine size limitation.
The result was 32 killed, 17 wounded and 6 injured escaping.

I don't see anything in the above stuff that I read or on the site that would indcate the NRA or any of the Members of the NRA could be liable.

I also picked this one incase some did not know that a Legal Alien could buy Fire Arms in this Country.

Bushmaster is evidently one of the Companies that makes AR-15 Clones. Likely a less expensive version. But, Bushmaster also makes other Guns som I am not sure what Version was used.
At least one version of the Bushmaster was considered an Assult Weapon in CT, the State the Murder took place in. But, oddly the Media has not mentioned that.
Lots of info below. I did not look at it in detail.
http://www.jud.ct.gov/lawlib/law/firearms.htm

In reality a Rifle is always a better choice because a Rifle is easier to Aim and Shoot accurately; regardless of Fire Power.
This is why you don't see individual Soldiers in the Military Armed with Hand Guns as their main Weapon.

In the past there was 2 companies that Made Handguns that too 18 Shot Magazines and there also is Drum Magazines made for Shotguns that are a Higher Capacity then the typical 10 shot ones found on the Police Shot Guns.

Also with Shotguns with the typical Tubular Magazines you can Fire a few shots and while you are moving to another spot jam a few more shells into the Gun.
They teach the Police to do this so the Gun is kept as fully loaded as possible during an incounter.

If you could manage to hid behind a complete set of Law Books at all time you would indeed be protected by the Letter or the Law>:D

I liked it better when I was a Kid when People as a whole mostly obey the Law and the Law was allowed to Kick Ass on the ones who did not want to obey the Law.

I thought you had the guns in your house for self defense?

I did not actually say what purpose I used My Guns for; I said I had not used them to kill anything (Actually I used to go Rabbit Hunting but I don't have those Guns anymore. Tried Deer Hunting a bunch of time but the only time I saw one was when I did not have My Gun.). But, that does not matter.

When I come Home I don't strap on one of My Guns and walk around with it in the House or in My Yard ready to pull it on someone.

Some one can wait out side for you or actually already be waiting inside of your Home when you arrive home unarmed.

I fact if I lived in AZ where you are allowed to carry Holsterd Gun as long as it is in plain view I would not do so except in some special event like going to the ATM late at night and so on.
Having to carry a Gun all the time if you don't have some immediate need for it is a real pain in the a**. A Hand Gun becomes several pounds of dead weight trying to yank your Pants down.

Added: I forgot something. I won't explain the details but I had a Guy beating on My Front Door with a Base Ball Bat. In that particular case I had enough time to get a Hand Gun and I carefully angled the Shot so when I shot the Bullet went through the Door and suck in the Roof of my Porch.

The Man Ran off. The Poilce arrived and ask Me what happend and took My Gun and told Me I could pick the Gun up in a Month.

When I went to the Police Station to pick up My Gun the Officer rooted through a pile of Guns that were on the Floor to find it; ya it was scratched up.
I thought it was entirely resonable that they did not let Me walk through the Poilce Station with a loaded Gun and let them keep the Bullets.

When I first moved into My House I kept a Target 22 Pistol by My Bed at night. I could hear someone roaming around out side and I grabbed the Gun and pulled back the slide to load the Gun and the Gun jammed.
I did not want to turn the Lights on and become a well lit target so I just waited to see what hppend and who or what ever it was went away.

After the jamming incident I bought a 38 Revolver. My House was still new to me and had no Fence in the Back Yard that faced an Alley.
About 2 O'clock at Night a Car pull in to My Back Yard and stopped within 3 feet of My Bedroom Window with the Headlights on. I could not see out due to the Headlights.

My Telephone was on a 25 Foot Cord and I did not know exacly where it was and agin I did not want to turn the Light on and become an easy target.

The Car Doors opened I though I more than one Person got out. I could here People crunching on the dried Leaves as they were walking.

Because it was hot in the Living Room I had a 5 foot tall window open and there was only a Screen to keep someone from coming in.
So I laid down on the Floor with My Heart Pounding pointing the Revolver at the Window. And I actually felt under armed.
People continued to walk around a bit and suddenly they ran back into the Car and started to back out.
The got bogged down in a shallow ditch I had dug and struggled to get out of the Ditch; I turned the Lights on and found My Phone and about the time I started to dial the got out of the Ditch and screeched off.

Gradually over the years I built a Fence in the Back, put Bars on the Window and even have a Security Screen Door on the Front Door so if I am Home and someone is trying to get in I have time to deal with that.
I also taught My Wife how to shoot and She likes it. For those who know about this My little 5"2" Wife likes shooting My 1911A1 45.

Jimmy Fallon as Neil Young performing Pants On The Ground

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/80893450/

Bobby Slayton - YouTube


You know who never gets the death penalty in this country?

.......crazy people, mentally ill people.

"Oh my client is crazy! He doesn't know what he DID!"


Fine, then he doesn't know we're gonna kill him.


Listen, if he's THAT retarded, put him in the electric chair, and tell him it's a FFFFing RIDE!"

Sounds like you live in an exciting neighborhood.:eek:

My dad always said to never shoot a man with less than a 38. Today with the possibility of one being hopped up on drugs I suppose he might recommend something larger.

No...well placed shots. If you aim a gun at someone, and place your finger on the trigger, you've committed yourself to the act of killing them. Place the shot within the kill range (chest, head) and protect yourself. Larger caliber makes more of a mess to be cleaned up, and could be too much for the shooter to handle without practice.

My wife has tried shooting a number of larger caliber rounds, .357 Mag, .44 Mag, and a .50 cal, and cannot control the recoil. The 9mm that she carries is perfect for her, and very controllable.

:D

When I was a kid, schools gave paddlings then sent you home for another round from dad...same with the neighbors. I remember doing something I shouldn't have while at a neighbor's house. I got swatted on the rump and sent home where I got it again.

The way the laws are written now, you can't touch your kid without fear of the law stepping in and you going to court for abuse and the child being sent to live in foster care.

Parents are either afraid to punish their kids, or they just don't care. Either way, we live in a screwed up society because of it.

X2 on the above. If I got in trouble at School I tried to make sure I got Home to tell My Mom so She would punish Me again before My Dad got Home.
In fact in the "Good Old Days" Kids got away with very little and there was always Adults around to straighten you out.
That taught you there could be unplesent consquences to your actions and you were going to be held respisiable for your actions.

When I had Psychological in College the theory was that hitting your Kid caused them to be angry and resentful to the Person who did the punishment.
I had no issues with My Parents and School Teachers back then or now about punishiment because I knew what the rules were and made a choice to violate the rules. Meaing I know I was the cause of the Punishiment; so I did not balme anyone else.

As side story: I went out with a Lady who someone had called the County Child Services to investigate Her for Spanking Her Kid.

Child Services threatend to remove the Kid from Her Home.

The Lady went over to Her Child and said that either She had to obey the rules of the House Hold and accept the Punishment if the Child viiolated the rules or if the Child wanted to the Child could go with the Child Services.
The Child decided to say with Mom.

of course back when Dad was talking a 9mm was not readily available. How does the 9mm compare in power to an ordinary 38 cal?

The incidents were spread out from 1977 till around the late 1980s.

There was also someone wounded in a nearby Play Ground but, that is not normal for this area.

About 1/2 a Mile away is a 2 seperate areas were there is a concentration of Apartement Builddings. I have been told these are both Gang Areas and around the Corner from one there is; again frome what I have been told a Drug Dealers House.

I have not seen Him for along time but the Dealer would sometime drive down My Street in one of his expensive Cars and People would say there goes the Drug Dealer; so I guess it is true.

The one area is not the problemit was as they built a Police Station acrossed the Street from it.

In another thread someone commented about the Poilce always being in Donut Shops.
Maybe We need to make sure each Elementrary School has a Donut Shop next to it.

Gun control. A .22 in the eye beats a .45 in the shoulder every time. The best caliber for self defense is the one you can control and shoot the best.

Never were truer words writ.

- Peter.

.38 is .003" bigger in diameter than a 9mm. 9mm currently has more defense rounds available due to the demand.

For a good comparison, see the link below.

9mm vs 38 Special | Ballistics 101

So true...and something I can agree with completely. Even a well placed shot from a .25 is better than nothing at all, when in dire time of need. That's the one you use to hit the bad guy in the groin!

LOTS of people in the ground from a .22 or .25.

I would hate to depend on hitting an intruder in the eye in the middle of the night in the dark.

Of course a perfectly placed 22 is lethal, I believe it may be the weapon of choice when a hit is made in controlled circumstances. Not much recoil or noise and minimal mess.

two or three well placed .22s in the groin area (below navel and above balls) will put most people down, esp if its a .22 LRHP

Again, I would not want to count on being able to make three well placed shots in the dark. I feel I'd be lucky to hit the center of the torso under duress.

Heck, I bet a torso shot with my 12 ga will knock a man out even if he has a vest on...possibly stop his heart too.

Here is a rear item; a News Media admitting an a so called Assult Weapon can be uesed for Hunting:

Thu, 27 Dec 2012 14:33:46 -0500
PHOENIX (AP) — Military-style semiautomatic rifles have been used in at least four high-profile shootings in the past year. Bushmaster variations of the weapon have been used two recent attacks, including the Newtown, Conn., school shootings and the Christmas Eve ambush slayings of two New York firefighters. While commonly called the AR-15, Colt and Armalite have been the only companies to make weapons by that specific name. Many other manufacturers, however, now sell similar versions of the rifle largely styled after the military's fully automatic M-16.

A look at the guns, their history and why they're so popular:

HOW WERE THE WEAPONS DEVELOPED?

Armalite first built the so-called AR-15 rifle for military use, but the design was later acquired by Colt, which produced the M-16 automatic weapon for the U.S. military. In the early 1960s, Colt then began marketing the semiautomatic AR-15 rifle largely as the civilian version of the fully-auto M-16. Many other companies have since begun manufacturing and selling AR-15-type rifles, but under different names, including the Remington Arms R-15, Bushmaster X-15 and Carbon 15 and the Smith & Wesson M&P15. The AR-15 has become the commonly-used generic term for all similar rifles.

WHAT ARE THEY USED FOR?

The AR-15-type rifles and .223 caliber ammunition are largely used for hunting small game like coyotes and prairie dogs. They also are extremely popular in shooting competitions due to the light weight of the gun and ammunition and the weapon's accuracy.
HOW DO YOU PURCHASE ONE?

Most military-style semiautomatic rifles were restricted for sale under the 1994 assault weapons ban that expired in 2004. Today, such weapons can be purchased in gun stores across the country.

ARE THERE ANY LIMITATIONS ON SALES?

Licensed dealers must first run a background check on the buyer to determine whether they are eligible under state and federal laws to own the weapon; convicted felons, for instance, cannot legally own firearms. However, private sellers of such rifles are not required to perform background checks. This would include a person selling their private collection to a buyer from their home, as well as private sellers hawking their weapons at any number of dozens of gun shows that occur nationwide every year.

A 9mm has about the ballistics of 38+P Ammo. A hot loaded 38 Special.
But back in the 1960s the Military 9mm semiautomatic Hand Guns and even the lone commercial Semi auto Piston made by Smit&Wesson had to shoot Full Metal Jacket Bullets to be reliable.

The exception to that is that Ruger made a SA Revolver that you could get with a 9mm Cylinder but the Guns Bore was for ad 38/357.
Also semi auto Pistons of the past tended to only function well with a restricted range of Bullet weight.

So while the 38 special has less velocity than an 9mm you have a larger choice of Bullet weights and types of bullets.

The other issue is the Military Type semi auto Pistols had rather heavy trigger pulls making them harder to shot accurately when compared to a Revolver.

So in the past the 38 Sepcial Revolver had a lot going for it.

Also in the past the Crime rate was a good deal lower than now.

So I can kill a coyote with an "AR-15 type" assault rifle. I can also kill a coyote with a Buick Skylark. Does such an accomplishment diminish the original, intended purpose of either implement?

Double tap

Heart & head.

You're comparing "gun homicides" with all alcohol related deaths. This is a bull$**** statistic because the overwhelming majority of alcohol-related deaths are not homicide - there is no intent to kill with alcohol. Either compare gun homicides with alcohol homicides (where the alcohol itself was the murder weapon) or compare all firearm related deaths (including suicide and accidental discharge) to all alcohol-related deaths.

He's just going to continue to run through the NRA playbook until we all become too bored to respond, and then declare victory.

I don't have a link right now (anybody want to find it for me?), but I recall reading that the average murder victim had two prior felony convictions, and that the majority of murders are bad guys killing other bad guys. Makes that already low number of 9,500 seem even less significant, unless you're a career criminal.

Are you arguing that the innocents that are shot each year (regardless of the percentage of the 9,500) are acceptable losses for a free society? Serious question, not trying to be snarky.

I have heard the argument here that if you take away the guns they will find another way to accomplish their goal. Perhaps but since we have never taken away the guns I do not see where that theory has been proven in any way. I have heard the argument that we need to enforce the laws that exist. Depending upon where you live that may or may not work. Here in TX there really are not many laws to enforce. I can sell a gun to who ever I want and no one cares.

I have yet to hear any proposal from the NRA et-al that deals with preventing people who should not have access to guns from gaining access to them. I have seen them shoot down nearly every idea offered but I have yet to hear the NRA folks offer a single idea. I do hear the call to arm even more people but it seems the majority of people in the US seem to think that is a bad idea. And as the NRA folks keep telling us, the bad guys will continue to do bad things and enforcing laws will only affect the people who abide by the law. Seems like there is always a convenient argument to not do anything which I think is their plan in the first place.

I am fully aware that we will never achieve a zero homicide rate but I believe if other nations can reduce their homicides to 50% or less of ours we should be capable of doing the same unless there is something inherently violent about the US or we are some how incapable of playing nice with each other.

Ugh. Now you've done it. Prepare to be treated to an array of "relevant" statistics, such as the number of casualties caused by zeppelin explosions each year ("Should we also ban the sale of zeppelins in the United States?").

Demonize the victim, making their life and death less important, therefore not symptomatic of a gun problem?

Uhh.. this is the internet. Everyone is 6'4", has visible abs, and can shoot the wings off a gnat at 500 yards... in the dark :P

Short answer: Yes.

A longer answer will have to wait until I get back from work. Gotta go now.:)

Heres what Frankenstein is proposing.

http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/files/serve/?File_id=10993387-5d4d-4680-a872-ac8ca4359119


http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/12/27/Sen-Feinstein-s-Assault-Weapons-Ban-Is-Really-A-Handgun-Ban

It does not matter what someone thinks the Guns only use is or what someone thinks it was designed to use. The AR-15 is not a Military Weapon.
The fact is people do use it for hunting and that is a ligitimate use of the Gun; beyond the self defense use or target shooting.

It is certainly a better Gun to kill Coyotes with than the less powerful and less accurate .30 caliber M1 Carbines that People used to use to do that with.

Part of the problem for Me is that is people who are not interested in Firearms don't know the History behind their development.

The original Armilite Gun was the AR-10 in the 7.62mm NATO Caliber (used in the M-14 and M1-Garands were converted to it by installing a sleeve inside of the Chamber); the Civilian version is the .308 Caliber. This is a much more powerful Cartridge then the one used in the M-16. The Military was not interested in it and adopted the M-14; sort of a Modrenized M-1 Garand with a 20 Shot Magazine.
The .308 is a popular and good Deer sized game Cartridge.

When fired fully automatic 7.62mm NATO Cartridge shot in the size, weight and construction of an Infantry Rifle like the M-14 is hard to deliver controlled accurate fire.

So the Military started looking for a less powerful Cartridge. What they found is that with a less powerful cartridge there was a greater chance of actually hitting something on full auto.

The 5.56mm Cartridge used in the M-16 was developed from a lower powered Cartridge used to kill what are classified as Varmints (like Prairie Dogs).
As cartridges go the WWII 30.06 and the 7.62 mm Cartridges used by the Military are both more lethal than the 5.56mm.
With the right weight of Bullet the 30.06 can be used to hunt any game in the US or Canada.

So in sort the Military though it would be better to have an increased chance of hits during Full Auto Fire was worth the scrafice of a lower powered Cartridge.

So the AR-15 (or the Bushmaster) clone without the full automatic fire actually gives up a lot of potential lethality when compared to the larger more powerful cartridges.

Having fired the M-16A1 full auto in the Army you are taught to aim low some where between the Feet and the Knee to the left of the Target. when you fire the Gun rises up and acrossed to the right. It is easy to get off target after 3 shots in a burst.
They try to teach you to fire bursts like that but eventually the they installed a mechanism that allows only x amount of shots per burst on Full Auto (this was after My time).
Since the less powerful M-16 barrel rises during full auto fire I cannot imagine what it was like to try to control an M-14 on full Auto.

Anoter advantage of the small Cartridges the M-16 uses is the Soldier gets to carry more shots for the same weight than the larger more powerful cartridges.

There was 2 Women Politicians in the LA area that started their career back in the 1980s on the Anti Gun ticket. Feinstein is was the most successful of the 2.

California is a good State for that because there I believe there is a majority of liberal Democrats out here.

In one of My other posts I indicated that I was still a Democrat. However, I don’t think I am so liberal and have often voted Republican when I thought they had a better candidate.

I have never and will never vote for Feinstein.

It may not have penetrated the vest but it sure knocked a hole in the plywood behind it.

I do have some 00 buck loads for it.

thanks for an honest straightforward response to a simple question.;)

Do you mean Male or Female?;)

I don't need the extra 4"s but envy the rest of the description.

There is a sort of urban legend that the .22 has killed more than any other caliber, or something. I don't know if there's any truth to it, but you hear it all the time. FBI recently released 2010 stats on LEOs killed in action. Most frequent caliber was .38sp and .40.
I really don't like shooting .40, way too snappy and hard to control. I fooled around with cutting powder weights way down on .40 reloads to the bare minimum that would cycle a pistol I had. Still didn't like it.

School Secutity funding had evidently previously been cut.


"Fri, 28 Dec 2012 04:19:40 -0500
WASHINGTON (AP) — The student's attack began with a shotgun blast through the windows of a California high school. Rich Agundez, the El Cajon policeman assigned to the school, felt his mind shift into overdrive.

People yelled at him amid the chaos but he didn't hear. He experienced "a tunnel vision of concentration."

While two teachers and three students were injured when the glass shattered in the 2001 attack on Granite Hills High School, Agundez confronted the assailant and wounded him before he could get inside the school and use his second weapon, a handgun.

The National Rifle Association's response to a Connecticut school massacre envisions, in part, having trained, armed volunteers in every school in America. But Agundez, school safety experts and school board members say there's a huge difference between a trained law enforcement officer who becomes part of the school family — and a guard with a gun.

The NRA's proposal has sparked a debate across the country as gun control rises once again as a national issue. President Barack Obama promised to present a plan in January to confront gun violence in the aftermath of the killing of 20 Sandy Hook Elementary School students and six teachers in Newtown, Conn.

Agundez said what happened before the shooting in the San Diego County school should frame the debate over the NRA's proposal.

With a shooting at another county school just weeks before, Agundez had trained the staff in how to lock down the school, assigned evacuation points, instructed teachers to lock doors, close curtains and turn off the lights. He even told them computers should be used where possible to communicate, to lessen the chaos.

And his training? A former SWAT team member, Agundez' preparation placed him in simulated stressful situations and taught him to evade a shooter's bullets. And the kids in the school knew to follow his advice because they knew him. He spoke in their classrooms and counseled them when they came to him with problems.

In the wake of the Sandy Hook massacre, school boards, administrators, teachers and parents are reviewing their security measures.

School security officers can range from the best trained police officers to unarmed private guards. Some big city districts with gang problems and crime formed their own police agencies years ago. Others, after the murder of 13 people at Columbine High School in 1999, started joint agreements with local police departments to have officers assigned to schools — even though that was no guarantee of preventing violence. A trained police officer at Columbine confronted one of two shooters but couldn't prevent the death of 13 people.

"Our association would be uncomfortable with volunteers," said Mo Canady, executive director of the National Association of School Resource Officers — whose members are mostly trained law enforcement officers who "become part of the school family.'"

Canady questioned how police officers responding to reports of a shooter would know whether the person with a gun is a volunteer or the assailant.

Former Rep. Asa Hutchinson, who also was a top Homeland Security official and will head the NRA effort, said the program will have two key elements.

One is a model security plan "based on the latest, most up-to-date technical information from the foremost experts in their fields." Each school could tweak the plan to its own circumstances, and "armed, trained, qualified school security personnel will be but one element."

The second element may prove the more controversial because, to avoid massive funding for local authorities, it would use volunteers. Hutchinson said in his home state of Arkansas, his son was a volunteer with a local group "Watchdog Dads," who volunteered at schools to patrol playgrounds and provide added security.

He said retired police officers, former members of the military or rescue personnel would be among those likely to volunteer.

There's even debate over whether anyone should have a gun in a school, even a trained law enforcement officer.

"In general teachers don't want guns in schools period," said Dennis Van Roekel, president of the National Education Association, one of the two large unions representing teachers. He added that one size does not fit all districts and said the union has supported schools that wanted a trained officer. Most teachers, he said, do not want to be armed themselves.

"It's a school. It's not a place where guns should be," he commented.

The security situation around the country is mixed.

—The Snohomish School District north of Seattle got rid of its school officers because of the expense.

—The Las Vegas-based Clark County School District has its own police department and places armed officers in and around its 49 high school campuses. Officers patrol outside elementary and middle schools. The Washoe County School District in Nevada also has a police force, but it was only about a decade ago that the officers were authorized to carry guns on campus.

—In Milwaukee, a dozen city police officers cover the school district but spend most of their time in seven of the 25 high schools. In Madison, Wis., an armed police officer has worked in each of the district's four high schools since the mid-1990s.

—For the last five years, an armed police officer has worked in each of the two high schools and three middle schools in Champaign, Ill. Board of Education member Kristine Chalifoux said there are no plans to increase security, adding, "I don't want our country to become an armed police state."

—A Utah group is offering free concealed-weapons permit training for teachers as a result of the Connecticut shootings. Arizona Attorney General Tom Horne proposed a plan to allow one educator in each school to carry a gun.

Ed Massey, vice chairman of the Boone County, Ky., school board and president of the National School Boards Association, said his district has nine trained law enforcement officers for 23 schools and "would love to have one in every school."

"They bring a sense of security and have done tremendous work in deterring problems in school," he said. "The number of expulsions have dramatically decreased. We used to have 15 or 20 a year. Now we have one or two in the last three years."

An officer, he said, "is not just a hired gun. They have an office in the school. They are trained in crisis management, handling mass casualties and medical emergencies."

He said a poster given out by the local sheriff's department shows one of the officers and talks about literacy and reading.

Kenneth Trump, president of the National School Safety and Security Services consulting firm, said having trained officers in schools is "more of a prevention program than a reactive program if you have the right officers who want to work with kids."

But he also criticized a drop in funding for school security, saying, "Congress and the last two administrations have chipped away to the point of elimination of every program for school security and emergency planning."
Dr. Ronald Stephens, executive director of the National School Safety Center that provides training to schools, said the NRA's suggestion of using volunteers "is a whole new concept of school safety." He questioned whether the NRA wants to bring the best sharpshooters on campus.

"How is that going to create a positive atmosphere for young people?" he asked. "How does that work on the prevention side?"

Agundez, 52, who retired as a policeman in 2010, learned shortly before his retirement just how much his trained reaction to a shooter affected students at Granite Hills High.

He was writing a traffic ticket and the driver's whole body started shaking. He had been a student that day nine years earlier.

"He gave me a hug," Agundez recalled. "He said 'I always wanted to thank you.' You saved our lives."

___

Associated Press writers Todd Richmond, Michael Tarm, Greg Moore, Ken Ritter, Sandra Chereb and Donna Blankinship contributed to this report.

___

Follow Larry Margasak on Twitter at http://Twitter.com/LarryMargasak"

School Secutity funding had evidently previously been cut.


"Fri, 28 Dec 2012 04:19:40 -0500
WASHINGTON (AP) — The student's attack began with a shotgun blast through the windows of a California high school. Rich Agundez, the El Cajon policeman assigned to the school, felt his mind shift into overdrive.

People yelled at him amid the chaos but he didn't hear. He experienced "a tunnel vision of concentration."

While two teachers and three students were injured when the glass shattered in the 2001 attack on Granite Hills High School, Agundez confronted the assailant and wounded him before he could get inside the school and use his second weapon, a handgun.

The National Rifle Association's response to a Connecticut school massacre envisions, in part, having trained, armed volunteers in every school in America. But Agundez, school safety experts and school board members say there's a huge difference between a trained law enforcement officer who becomes part of the school family — and a guard with a gun.

The NRA's proposal has sparked a debate across the country as gun control rises once again as a national issue. President Barack Obama promised to present a plan in January to confront gun violence in the aftermath of the killing of 20 Sandy Hook Elementary School students and six teachers in Newtown, Conn.

Agundez said what happened before the shooting in the San Diego County school should frame the debate over the NRA's proposal.

With a shooting at another county school just weeks before, Agundez had trained the staff in how to lock down the school, assigned evacuation points, instructed teachers to lock doors, close curtains and turn off the lights. He even told them computers should be used where possible to communicate, to lessen the chaos.

And his training? A former SWAT team member, Agundez' preparation placed him in simulated stressful situations and taught him to evade a shooter's bullets. And the kids in the school knew to follow his advice because they knew him. He spoke in their classrooms and counseled them when they came to him with problems.

In the wake of the Sandy Hook massacre, school boards, administrators, teachers and parents are reviewing their security measures.

School security officers can range from the best trained police officers to unarmed private guards. Some big city districts with gang problems and crime formed their own police agencies years ago. Others, after the murder of 13 people at Columbine High School in 1999, started joint agreements with local police departments to have officers assigned to schools — even though that was no guarantee of preventing violence. A trained police officer at Columbine confronted one of two shooters but couldn't prevent the death of 13 people.

"Our association would be uncomfortable with volunteers," said Mo Canady, executive director of the National Association of School Resource Officers — whose members are mostly trained law enforcement officers who "become part of the school family.'"

Canady questioned how police officers responding to reports of a shooter would know whether the person with a gun is a volunteer or the assailant.

Former Rep. Asa Hutchinson, who also was a top Homeland Security official and will head the NRA effort, said the program will have two key elements.

One is a model security plan "based on the latest, most up-to-date technical information from the foremost experts in their fields." Each school could tweak the plan to its own circumstances, and "armed, trained, qualified school security personnel will be but one element."

The second element may prove the more controversial because, to avoid massive funding for local authorities, it would use volunteers. Hutchinson said in his home state of Arkansas, his son was a volunteer with a local group "Watchdog Dads," who volunteered at schools to patrol playgrounds and provide added security.

He said retired police officers, former members of the military or rescue personnel would be among those likely to volunteer.

There's even debate over whether anyone should have a gun in a school, even a trained law enforcement officer.

"In general teachers don't want guns in schools period," said Dennis Van Roekel, president of the National Education Association, one of the two large unions representing teachers. He added that one size does not fit all districts and said the union has supported schools that wanted a trained officer. Most teachers, he said, do not want to be armed themselves.

"It's a school. It's not a place where guns should be," he commented.

The security situation around the country is mixed.

—The Snohomish School District north of Seattle got rid of its school officers because of the expense.

—The Las Vegas-based Clark County School District has its own police department and places armed officers in and around its 49 high school campuses. Officers patrol outside elementary and middle schools. The Washoe County School District in Nevada also has a police force, but it was only about a decade ago that the officers were authorized to carry guns on campus.

—In Milwaukee, a dozen city police officers cover the school district but spend most of their time in seven of the 25 high schools. In Madison, Wis., an armed police officer has worked in each of the district's four high schools since the mid-1990s.

—For the last five years, an armed police officer has worked in each of the two high schools and three middle schools in Champaign, Ill. Board of Education member Kristine Chalifoux said there are no plans to increase security, adding, "I don't want our country to become an armed police state."

—A Utah group is offering free concealed-weapons permit training for teachers as a result of the Connecticut shootings. Arizona Attorney General Tom Horne proposed a plan to allow one educator in each school to carry a gun.

Ed Massey, vice chairman of the Boone County, Ky., school board and president of the National School Boards Association, said his district has nine trained law enforcement officers for 23 schools and "would love to have one in every school."

"They bring a sense of security and have done tremendous work in deterring problems in school," he said. "The number of expulsions have dramatically decreased. We used to have 15 or 20 a year. Now we have one or two in the last three years."

An officer, he said, "is not just a hired gun. They have an office in the school. They are trained in crisis management, handling mass casualties and medical emergencies."

He said a poster given out by the local sheriff's department shows one of the officers and talks about literacy and reading.

Kenneth Trump, president of the National School Safety and Security Services consulting firm, said having trained officers in schools is "more of a prevention program than a reactive program if you have the right officers who want to work with kids."

But he also criticized a drop in funding for school security, saying, "Congress and the last two administrations have chipped away to the point of elimination of every program for school security and emergency planning."
Dr. Ronald Stephens, executive director of the National School Safety Center that provides training to schools, said the NRA's suggestion of using volunteers "is a whole new concept of school safety." He questioned whether the NRA wants to bring the best sharpshooters on campus.

"How is that going to create a positive atmosphere for young people?" he asked. "How does that work on the prevention side?"

Agundez, 52, who retired as a policeman in 2010, learned shortly before his retirement just how much his trained reaction to a shooter affected students at Granite Hills High.

He was writing a traffic ticket and the driver's whole body started shaking. He had been a student that day nine years earlier.

"He gave me a hug," Agundez recalled. "He said 'I always wanted to thank you.' You saved our lives."

___

Associated Press writers Todd Richmond, Michael Tarm, Greg Moore, Ken Ritter, Sandra Chereb and Donna Blankinship contributed to this report.

___

Follow Larry Margasak on Twitter at http://Twitter.com/LarryMargasak"

But dude.... the neocons, 'conservatives' and basically anyone on the right, have been chiseling away at all school funding for decades.

I'm all for trained resource officers in schools. In my experience though, the reality is different than the concept. In my school, our resource officer was an on-duty sheriff's deputy assigned by the county. While I can't verify this, the ones the county sent us always looked like sort of, I don't know, schlubs; like ones who maybe couldn't quite pass the two mile run part of the physical, or maybe just barely qualified at the range. Nice guys and gals, but not necessarily people I would care to entrust the life of my kids to when push comes to shove.
In addition, their presence was at the whim of our understaffed county sheriff, and whenever there was a need elsewhere, they got called off campus. I can think of many more instances when their presence would have made a difference than when it actually did, and my school is a calm little country K-8 with 300 kids.
If this is going to be a plan that actually works it's going to have to be absolutely mandatory that the finest officers, who actually WANT and know HOW to deal with kids, teachers and parents in addition to being trained in crisis situations are placed on PERMANENT, INVIOLABLE duty on campus.

There was a time in the past were a lot of House Holds had a .22 Rifle or even a Piston for hunting small game or small varmints around their House or Farm.

It is also sort of a starter caliber that beginners use. My Father started Me off on a .22 Rifle and when I bought a Hand Gun the fist on was a .22.

So I am speculating that it is likely due to the sheer numbers of the .22 caliber Guns and the fact they are handled by beginners it has caused more accidental deaths than the other calibers.

If the it is a case that the Slide is not going back far enough it maybe someone makes a reduced tension Recoil Spring for target Shooting (I don't know what Gun you are using so I don't know if it is any sort of competition.)
A lower power Recoil Spring might not strip the Bullets out of the Magazine easily. But, if it worked it would be a cheap fix.
If you did that you would also need to remember not to shot the full power loads in it.

Install a Muzzle Brake? they decrease the Muzzle flip (sort of levering your Hand and Wrist) upwards; and the Brake directs the push of the Gun to a more straighter backwards push. I have no experience with them.

A more expensive option is if you could convert it to 9mm.

A cheap but harder way to would be to lift some Weights or other excersizes to build up the Muscle Mass in your wrists and Arms to dampen the reciol.

My dad shot competitively both rifle and pistol. He was pretty good. He said if you want to get to be a good shot with a 45 or a 38 or other large caliber handguns, get an identical weapon in operation weight and so forth in 22 caliber and shoot thousands of rounds with it. Practicing with the heavy caliber gun makes you flinch when you squeeze off the trigger and you can't hit much at all.

The thing about .40 cal is that most pistols that chamber it are polymer frame and very light. This makes the recoil seem more vigorous. A 1911 .45 throws a bigger chunk of lead down range with a bit more energy, but the weight of all that steel dampens the recoil rather a lot.