C8 Corvette Will Only be Available with Two Pedals - Page 13 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

JB3 · #**181** 03-28-2020, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwd4evr

It's parasitic loss that makes an auto worse mileage wise, not a computer controller.

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Fine tuned computer control makes a big difference in eliminating reasons for unnecessary parasitic loss.

rwd4evr · #**182** 03-30-2020, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB3

Those qualify as a type of automatic. The reality is automatic efficiency across the board has risen. Now if you want to cherry pick and narrow the definition of the automatic to a specific TYPE of automatic that can be beat by a manual in efficiency, then you can find examples, but even then its getting harder to find something that doesnt match the typical manual in efficiency.

We can argue about this all day, but the reality is the principle advantange of a manual is now fun factor.

An automatic trans is not a dual clutch trans. Only the same in that they shift for you. Two tottaly different things. A dct is a manual trans with no fluid coupling and direct gear mesh with no planetarys, same as a real manual trans. The engine driven pump that makes the automatic trans work plus the frictional losses from the fluid and planetarys is why they are less efficient. Not to mention way heavier. Computers help make up for it but it's not the same.

As far as fun factor, yeah no $hit. Why would I buy a Corvette? To run the neighborhood kids to school? Maybe office carpool? Oh how about a rear engine one with no cargo area behind me? Maybe a lumber delivery service.

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rwd4evr · #**183** 03-30-2020, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbomachines

Much of the parasitic loss is in the "slush" shifts which has been all but eliminated. Manual transmissions have gears and oil too, and are no better now.

I can drive stick great, have for years, and prefer it. But...

You should try one sometime and push it a little, theyre an absolute blast.

I'm sure its fun but I want to make a video game more like driving a real car, not the other way around. A blast for me is knowing that I'm driving a car to it's full potential. It's that simple. I don't want any help. I don't need any help. If someone want to rent a track and turn me loose in thier dct Vette I'm all about it. But I'm bringing my ****box 4 speed Mercedes to go slide around and have a blast in too.

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JB3 · #**184** 03-30-2020, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwd4evr

An automatic trans is not a dual clutch trans. Only the same in that they shift for you. Two tottaly different things. A dct is a manual trans with no fluid coupling and direct gear mesh with no planetarys, same as a real manual trans. The engine driven pump that makes the automatic trans work plus the frictional losses from the fluid and planetarys is why they are less efficient. Not to mention way heavier. Computers help make up for it but it's not the same.

As far as fun factor, yeah no $hit. Why would I buy a Corvette? To run the neighborhood kids to school? Maybe office carpool? Oh how about a rear engine one with no cargo area behind me? Maybe a lumber delivery service.

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Does the car shift for you or not? Automatic. Whether it be CVT, traditional planetary, dual clutch automated manuals, ect.

You want to narrowly limit the definition of what the word automatic means. Any vehicle that is transferring its source of motive power on its own is by definition, automatic. This also includes electric vehicles

Capt. Mike · #**185** 03-30-2020, 10:31 AM

Everybody has his own viewpoint, and mine is that today, stick shifts are only for fun. That’s it. I am not in the financial position to add a weekend fun car to my list of toys. Or, rather, I can’t justify it or get away with it; two people don’t need three cars.

rwd4evr · #**186** 04-01-2020, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capt. Mike

Everybody has his own viewpoint, and mine is that today, stick shifts are only for fun. That’s it. I am not in the financial position to add a weekend fun car to my list of toys. Or, rather, I can’t justify it or get away with it; two people don’t need three cars.

Right. Well your not buying a Corvette or any two seater/track day/fun car anyway. That's the whole point of this argument.

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rwd4evr · #**187** 04-01-2020, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB3

Does the car shift for you or not? Automatic. Whether it be CVT, traditional planetary, dual clutch automated manuals, ect.

You want to narrowly limit the definition of what the word automatic means. Any vehicle that is transferring its source of motive power on its own is by definition, automatic. This also includes electric vehicles

The difference In the autos of whatever type is the fuel economy/efficiency argument someone threw in. A fluid coupled automatic trans will never be as efficient as a direct driven gear type manual trans. Computers can help it get closer but it's physically impossible to be as efficient regardless of lockup torque converter, being that there is a pump running to hold the bands tight on the drums with hydraulic pressure. A dual clutch automatic will be the same as a traditional manual unless it's running some type of mechanical pump for clutch release pressure. I can't say I know how the clutches are physically actuated.

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rwd4evr · #**188** 04-01-2020, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbomachines

You should try one sometime and push it a little, theyre an absolute blast.

I push cars a lot when I drive them. At the limit is especially where all the computer wizardry get confused and scared and does bad things. If I throw a car with traction/stability control into a turn and want it to rotate to aim it for the apex it pulls power and is going to snap straight and very possibly put me in a wall or ditch. Watch any test driver that knows what he's doing track test a street car and he will be instantly looking to kill all the helpers 99% of the time. The dct has all kinds of computer controlled actions that may think they are doing what I want when they aren't. Maybe I want to use the clutch to break traction or to slow the car more with the rear tires to help rotate it entering a corner. You can keep trying to come up with ideas to make me want a dct paddle shifter with no clutch pedal but it's never going to happen. The third pedal is the biggest issue I've got with them. I could get past the paddle shifter and really could easily adapt a sequential type stick in the console if I was so inclined, but I need to have a clutch pedal I'm in charge of. And the gas and the brakes.

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tbomachines · #**189** 04-01-2020, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwd4evr

The difference In the autos of whatever type is the fuel economy/efficiency argument someone threw in. A fluid coupled automatic trans will never be as efficient as a direct driven gear type manual trans. Computers can help it get closer but it's physically impossible to be as efficient regardless of lockup torque converter, being that there is a pump running to hold the bands tight on the drums with hydraulic pressure. A dual clutch automatic will be the same as a traditional manual unless it's running some type of mechanical pump for clutch release pressure. I can't say I know how the clutches are physically actuated.

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Plenty of cases where you are incorrect. Here is one from a quick search:

P.C. · #**190** 04-01-2020, 06:16 PM

A car with an automatic transmission requires less touching of the shift lever than a comparable car with a manual, thus lessening the possibility of transmission of the coronavirus from a contaminated shift lever to the hapless driver...

Capt. Mike · #**191** 04-01-2020, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.C.

A car with an automatic transmission requires less touching of the shift lever than a comparable car with a manual, thus lessening the possibility of transmission of the coronavirus from a contaminated shift lever to the hapless driver...

Yes, but with the first car, the transmission (of the virus) is automatic.

t walgamuth · #**192** 04-01-2020, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbomachines

Plenty of cases where you are incorrect. Here is one from a quick search:

I bet they put a taller gear in the automatic cars so the sticks will feel peppier.

Skid Row Joe · #**193** 04-03-2020, 03:28 AM

ALL C7 classes of manual transmission Corvettes are rated higher mpg than their counterpart auto trans. Doesn't much matter about any other brands.

Nothing wrong with many heavier, pricier automatics, other than being extremely expensive to replace or repair, they're boring to drive.