Still having a real choice... - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

STORMINORMAN · #1 01-22-2003, 01:08 PM

Having read all the latest and greatest about all the new cars, trucks and SUV's, I can't help wondering if we are not looking at the last generation of Americans to really have a choice in what they choose to own & drive? Sure do get better mileage (for the most part) and performance levels are definitely up there with the Musclecars of the '60's. BUT....

The average cost of buying, insuring & operating a new car/truck has risen so dramatically in the last decade that it looks like the "average" citizen better start looking for an apartment next to the closest mass transit stop!

Buy a used car and fix it up? Not cool enough! The high schoolers around here drive Acura, BMW, and for some strange reason, Jettas? I saw one in a 2 year old Range Rover the other day and confirmed with my friend's son that it was, in fact, the kid's car! Got it for his 17th Birthday... Must be tough.

Between the increasing price and the unbelievable technilogical complexity of the new models is the real dilemma: you can afford to buy the specialty used car of your dreams, however it is out of warranty and if the tranny goes or you need a new engine it may cost you more than the purchase price.

And I can only imagine what lengths the Environmental / Safety Nazis will go to in order to get our evil vehicles off the roads so all the good little e-consumers can ride their bikes down to collect their entitlement benefits and their settlements from the McDonalds/KFC/Burger King (BAD FAT!) and Coke/Pepsi (BAD SUGAR!) lawsuits!

drbrandini · #2 01-22-2003, 01:16 PM

I know what you mean. I recently debated as to wether or not to purchase a new vehicle. As you can guess I did the research and found high prices (vehicles and insurance) and premature vehicle problems. I decided rather than get myself into a payment only to have more problems I would rather stick with my payed-for 300E and do the necessary repairs once in a while. IMO car manufacturers are getting way ahead of themselves, trying to have the latest technology before other companies but not properly testing their products before they release them to the public. Its a real shame how workmanship and pride in their work has gone down the drain.

STORMINORMAN · #3 01-22-2003, 01:43 PM

Bought a new Acura Legend 5-speed in 1986 when they first came out: paid less than $19,000. Payments were $345 a month. It was a wonderful car that lasted 10+ years & 128K with very little in the way of repairs, mostly normal maintenance and replacement of things that just wore out. Clutch, brake rotors, tires, belts, etc. Just normal things.

A new 2003 Accord is argueably a bigger, faster, better car with a base one going for $15,995, an LX Automatic @ $19,995 and a EX Automatic @ $22,860.

But it is not the "kind" of car the Legend was in 1986. For that you need to open up the ol' wallet (or crank up the ol' credit machine) and be prepared to pay a lot more for a lot longer. A lease on an S8 Volvo is $469 per month for 48 months with $1400 down & a residual of $19,050!!!

And if you didn't buy the extended warranty and the motor goes at 40K you are up the S*** creek without a paddle.

drbrandini · #4 01-22-2003, 02:05 PM

I can agree with that. From the looks of your signature, we are on the same page

placo1 · #5 01-22-2003, 03:13 PM

I honestly don't think 90% of the car manufacturers are building cars to last over 120K miles.

Rather than spending the manufacturing costs on better materials/designs they use cheaper materials which will fall apart after 6 years 120K miles. This guarantees turnover and a future market for them. Cars have become recyclable. Instead the money is spent on marketing, gimmicks, special finance offers and how to make cheap materials look good. (I think VW is a prime example)

All the new electronics are going to cost $$$$ to fix in the future and mechanics will have to become electricians to properly rebuild cars. It's just the way it is and unfortunately we the consumer really don't have any say in it.

Glen · #6 01-22-2003, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by placo1

It's just the way it is and unfortunately we the consumer really don't have any say in it.

I have to disagree. I believe consumers have spoken and manufacturers have built exactly what they are asking for. This is NOT to say that consumers know what they want!!! I think most people make poor decisions based on whims and not thinking about what they want and/or need.

G-Benz · #7 01-22-2003, 05:10 PM

The consumers will make their voices heard when they stop buying new cars and look to taking chances on pre-owned (with some aftermarket warranty protection).

Statistics will show that if this becoms the trend, then manufacturers will allow dealers to offer incredible incentives to get their showrooms full again. That is why zero-percent financing, 7-year powertrain warranties, and no payments till 12/xxxx, etc. are a fact of life today.

The economy is only driven when consumers opt to purchase goods and services. There is no incentive to produce products to "last forever" if the buyers stay away for several years. How do can they pay for all of that development of future products, while staying in goverment conformance in emission and safety standards?

Much of this wasn't an issue decades ago, and consider that the typical family had one car, not several! Regulatory issues were nil, and raw materials and fossil fuels were cheap and plentiful. You could produce a viable product more easily and cheaply then.

In the future, cars may wind up being somewhat "disposable". Using nearly 100% recyclable parts, a consumer purchases a vehicle, gets a financing plan that matches the depreciation curve of the vehicle (three of more years).

When the vehicle reaches an "expiration" period, the consumer can choose to keep the vehicle (it is paid for, so there is no depreciation loss at that time) or return it for disposal (and a salvage rebate) towards the purchase of a new vehicle. The government would endorse such a plan because it sustains their goal of removing older vehicles off the road to be recycled into more efficient newer ones...

STORMINORMAN · #8 01-22-2003, 07:15 PM

What kind of choice is that?

But you see my point: eroding choices brought on by a disposable economic plan.

anthonyb · #9 01-23-2003, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by STORMINORMAN

The average cost of buying, insuring & operating a new car/truck has risen so dramatically in the last decade that it looks like the "average" citizen better start looking for an apartment next to the closest mass transit stop!

I don't think the cost of buying and operating a vehicle has gone up much at all. When we bought my 300E brand new 15 years ago, we paid about $45,000-$50,000 after all was said and done. Today, that'll buy me a bigger, roomier, safer, faster, more fuel-efficient, more comfortable Mercedes or BMW, with a better stereo and real cupholders. If anything, the pace of technology and competition has produced better "value" than at any other time in the history of automobiles.

And if you can't or don't want to pay for a new car, there's nothing preventing the "average" citizen from shopping for a like-new or used vehicle that has the features they want, at a price point they can afford. Instead of buying a brand-new cookie-cutter Civic or Accord, my father just paid $12k for a 5-year old C230, avoided the big depreciation hit, and got a comfortable, safe, fuel-efficient car that will likely last quite a bit longer than most other vehicles being produced today.

Frankly, I think what's different is that the cost of everything ELSE has gone up - housing being the biggest chunk. But, throw in a media-driven urge to consume, longer commutes, more two-income (or more) households, and the lack of personal down-time, and what you get is a society that finds it increasingly harder to make ends meet.

Quote:

Buy a used car and fix it up? Not cool enough! The high schoolers around here drive Acura, BMW, and for some strange reason, Jettas? I saw one in a 2 year old Range Rover the other day and confirmed with my friend's son that it was, in fact, the kid's car! Got it for his 17th Birthday... Must be tough.

This is just Keeping-Up-With-The-Joneses-itis. Personally, any kid who thinks his or her parents should buy them a brand-new BMW so he or she can look cool walking out of the high-school parking lot has bigger issues than the seeming lack of choice in the new-car market.

Quote:

Between the increasing price and the unbelievable technilogical complexity of the new models is the real dilemma: you can afford to buy the specialty used car of your dreams, however it is out of warranty and if the tranny goes or you need a new engine it may cost you more than the purchase price.

When has this not been the case? This is always the trade-off with used cars, and frankly, I think a 5-year old used car bought today is likely to be MUCH more reliable than a 5-year old used car was ten or twenty years ago.

4NDELIT · #10 01-23-2003, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by STORMINORMAN
Buy a used car and fix it up? Not cool enough! The high schoolers around here drive Acura, BMW, and for some strange reason, Jettas? I saw one in a 2 year old Range Rover the other day and confirmed with my friend's son that it was, in fact, the kid's car! Got it for his 17th Birthday... Must be tough.

wow... you really got that right, in high school, there was one kid that had a clk 430, he crashed it while he was drunk, and his dad went out and bought him a brand new 330i. Not only that, but the kid bought a complete sound system, body kit, rims, tint, and a shiftknob on his credit card, and the dad didn't know untill his sister ratted on him after he pissed her off. I wish I had that kinda money, but unfortunatley, I don't. At that high school (torrey pines) par was at least a bmw 3 series or an audi A4. there were a few ML classes and an X5, and an escalade. one girl's car broke, so her dad let her borrow his S55 AMG!!!!! Again, I wish I had these problems. I was ragged on for driving an old man's car.

Trelinski · #11 01-23-2003, 11:57 AM

Yeah, I had similar experiences. Not that many German cars up here, but virtually everyone at my high school had new japanese imports for their 16 b-day. I got a 13 year old pontiac when I was 17. But I had the biggest subwoofer, and everyone knows, thats what really matters.

I'll be quite happy buying used cars for the rest of my life. Newest car I intend on owning is a '95 993.

G-Benz · #12 01-23-2003, 02:57 PM

Times sure have changed!

Many years ago (the Jurassic era) I attended a Catholic high school that was mostly composed of kids from affluent families...but only a handful showed up with new or almost new cars. The rest of us got great pleasure in obtaining our own vehicles with the meager earnings from our summer and after-school jobs (and a shot in the arm from dad's checkbook

).

What a pity. We all drove around in old Mustangs, Chevelles, Camaros, GTOs, Chargers, and Barracudas ...

...if we knew then what we know now!

#13 01-23-2003, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Again, I wish I had these problems. I was ragged on for driving an old man's car.

Sheesh, your 450SL would be drooled over at the high school I went to (in a small city/large town in Central WA). The first time I drove the 380SE to school, I had several people ask me about "that beautiful Benz I brought with me."

All a matter of perspective, I guess.

-Sam

blackmercedes · #14 01-24-2003, 10:34 PM

In 1981, my Dad bought a new Honda Accord. Top of the line model, fully loaded. In Canada, the equivalent model today would be the EX. (Not EX-L, as leather was not around in 1981 on "regular" cars.)

In 1981, the car was $10,000 right on the nose.

Today the same car sells for $28,000.

Hey! Not fair! What about inflation?

Okay, the 10,000 in 1981 is the same as $19,485.89 in 2001 dollars (the last year I have data for)

That Accord should be priced at about $20K.

Youch! Inflation PLUS 40%! Heck, a Civic costs more than $20K today.

Now, something strange HAS happened with MB cars. My 1987 190E 2.3 was $37,000. My 1998 C230 was $42,500. The $37,000 1987 dollars is the same as $57,667.62 in 2001 dollars. Mercedes' have gotten cheaper and Accord have become much more expensive.

Weird, huh?

Well, the real problem for new cars is the percentage of income it takes to buy a new car. Back int he early 1980's in Canada it took about 50% of the average family income to buy a new car. Today, that number has crept up to over 75%.

What about other big ticket items? Like a house?

In 1972, my house was REALLY expensive at $42,000. A typical Edmonton/St. Albert home sold for $27,000. Today, the average St. Albert home sells for about $215,000. BTW, that number was $133,000 four years ago.

What's $27,000 in 1972 worth today? $114,378. The average house price accounting for inflation should be about $115K, but it's $215,000? And we wonder why young families consider homeownership a distant dream? 25% down is about $54,000. That's quite a bit more than a year's salary PRE-TAX for the average family. How many folks are really able to save that much? Not many. When I worked in banking, I found that most people buying homes had substantial assitance from older family members. If you're lucky enough to be in that position.

When we bought our home, we were a dual income family with a substantial six figure income, and we were able to swing a mortgage without great difficulty. Today, living on Helen's income alone, we would never qualify for reasonable mortgage, and would have great difficulty in saving the required downpayment.

More and more people are being left out of the housing and new car markets. As the gap between rich and poor increases, I'm not sure how this will effect the economy in the long term. Experience shows that without "regular" working class folks participating in the new home and vehicle markets, the economy is more subject to large cycles and potential hard crashes. Are we heading for trouble? Could be...

STORMINORMAN · #15 01-25-2003, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by anthonyb
Instead of buying a brand-new cookie-cutter Civic or Accord, my father just paid $12k for a 5-year old C230, avoided the big depreciation hit, and got a comfortable, safe, fuel-efficient car that will likely last quite a bit longer than most other vehicles being produced today.

When has this not been the case? This is always the trade-off with used cars, and frankly, I think a 5-year old used car bought today is likely to be MUCH more reliable than a 5-year old used car was ten or twenty years ago.

I AGREE! Having paid $11k for a really clean 10 year old 420SEL with 105K a couple years ago I'm delighted: nice low mileage 5 year old C230's go for half again more than that around here, but one of my best buddies bought an '97 for his wife and I drove with five in it to the airport and was very impressed! Kinda' like a mini-S Class and very solid. The C230 Coupe looks to me to be the new car Buy of the Decade!

Well, re: newer used cars being better used cars... They are still unbelieveably complex and expensive to fix. A '93 Legend (or Civic, Camry or Accord) bought "right" in '98 would probably still be a fine & reliable car, a "cookie cutter" if you will. Probably wouldn't need a motor for another decade. I have an '84, very cherry Lincoln Town Car with 64K on it that is a fine highway/cruising ride (I drove it solo from Ft. Worth to Portland in August in 41 hours, got 20+ mpg) but is only worth more than a couple of grand to the "right" person... They skinned every red cow in Texas to make the interior on this baby! A new higher performance long block is only $2,800 + installation. But your point is well taken. IF (the BIG "if") there is no major catastrophic failure on the C230. I can only guess what a late 90's 4 rebuild costs vis-a-vis a Ford 302 V8. Gotta' be some serious dough-re-mi!