glock plant explosion in atlanta

there was an "explosion" in the test-firing area of the atlanta glock plant on monday, sending a couple of workers to hospital. parts are manuf in europe, and assembled here in atlanta.

ive been comtemplating purchasing a glock for several years. i have a colt 45-auto that ive owned for 25 years that i cant hit the side of a barn with. practice makes perfect, and i dont.

i was thinking of the medium framed 40-SW caliber. (model 23 i think) would anyone recommend a different round, or other manufacturer?

a local dealer that supplies the LE community typically has clean used for around $400, and new for around $575. is this pricing good?

thanks for any info. - ben

[JCE]

I prefer S&W for both bottomfeeders and roundguns. I hit pretty well with their revolvers, fair with their semiautos. Mostly I target shoot with my 45 year old S&W K22 Masterpiece. Glocks never shot as well for me, and Rugers are terrible in my hands. The re-curved grip backstrap on the S&W is the most comfortable fit in my hands for a semiauto. The Glock has a barrel closer to the frame, which is supposed to be an advantage, but didn't help me at all. I hear very good things about H&K and Sig, but they are $$$$, and many of the serious shooters I know use their Smiths at matches despite having these other brands to choose from.

Cool that S&W makes both the 40/10mm and 45acp as a wheelgun (with moonclips) as well as semi-auto pistols. They have a real nice 45 acp stainless revolver, also available firing both 40 and 10mm rounds. For serious competition, the Performance Center shop at S&W has some nice custom work at decent prices. They have a new 1911 45acp SA that is loaded with custom features at a less than custom price. Most of their autos are TDA or DAO. The factory also has a lifetime warranty on their products, and does custom gunsmitting at the factory. Their firearms are available as blue or stainless, or in a more pricey range, Scandium/aluminum alloy with titanium cylinders. They make several plastic/steel models as well, in conjunction with Walther of Germany.

The S&W web site is http://www.smith-wesson.com/

The unofficial discussion group is at http://www.smith-wessonforum.com/cgi-bin/sandwcgi/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro

It is broken down into sections on gunsmithing, Autos, revolvers, tech help, etc. Don't miss the classifieds, as a lot of revolvers and semiautos of all brands are offered for sale by members (legal sales, FFL to FFL only - these guys are mostly Law Enforcement Officers.

By the way, the rapid fire speed and accuracy record was set with an 8 shot 357 S&W revolver, not with a semiauto, and holds to this day.

Practice does indeed make perfect, but for many a semiauto is more difficult to shoot accurately, especially with a standard factory trigger pull. My best semiauto work was with pistols that had custom springs, barrels, bushings, and action jobs - adding about 50-75% to the cost of the weapon. Log on the forum and the friendly group there answers questions freely, including what to inspect when buying a used firearm.

Good luck on your selection.

PS. Ceiner makes a 22 conversion for your 1911A1 45 that will make practice a lot less expensive.

Originally posted by JCE
bottomfeeders

PS. Ceiner makes a 22 conversion for your 1911A1 45 that will make practice a lot less expensive.

heh, heh. heh, heh. he said bottomfeeders :p

hey jce, thanks for the info. that 22 conver sounds like a good idea.

my situation is this: i will use the 45 for the same purpose its always served- home land security. its seen the light maybe 3 times to investigate noises. like i said, i cant hit s#it with it, but everything ive ever read says that if i fire it, it will be at a range of well under 10 ft, probably closer to 3 ft. i wont miss that target.

new gun: i want to be able to LEGALLY travel with a firearm in the car. i cant get the same answer from even 2 people on the issue, even from LE officers. so... i have decided to get a carry permit to eliminate any issues. $50-70 for the class, and approx $125 for 4 year permit. since i could then carry on-person, i want something mid-size and lite. thus the interest in a 40 glock.

the range where i plan to take the class offers one months range use included, which seems like a deal. they also rent a variety of handguns inexpensively, like 2 guns for $12 for the day. you can start the month anytime around the class/test, so i plan to go a couple of weeks before, rent the 40 for a day, if i like it and think i can qualify with it, i will just use it. if not, i probably will qualify with a 22.

my 45 was thru a FFL friend. i also looked at a HK-91A3 back then for about $700, and thought that was outrageous, i now wished i had spent those dollars!

What about CZ? They make cheap, reliable handguns, of high quality in the Czech Republic...CZ 100 9mm

[el presidente]

Originally posted by ThrillBilly

new gun: i want to be able to LEGALLY travel with a firearm in the car. i cant get the same answer from even 2 people on the issue, even from LE officers. so... i have decided to get a carry permit to eliminate any issues. $50-70 for the class, and approx $125 for 4 year permit. since i could then carry on-person, i want something mid-size and lite. thus the interest in a 40 glock.

ThrillBilly,

What do you want an answer on? Vehicle carry? I am not LE, but am a licensed P.I. here in Georgia. I used to have a carry permit through the State, but I let it expire cause I hated carrying and it made our liability coverage go through the roof!

At the time (about 10 years ago), I carried a S & W Model 38 Airweight in .38 spl. This was the largest caliber the P.I. board allowed us to carry in a revolver. Semi-auto was limited to 9mm. The rules have changed now for P.I.'s and we can carry up to a .40...

Last time I checked, you can get a civilian carry permit through your county for just $50. Good idea about the class

Makarov is basically a Russian made pistol similar to a Walther PP. It has I believe 8 rounds of 9x18MM Russian "Makarov" 9mm rounds, as opposed to the 9x19 of the standard 9mm.

Personally, I really like the Tokarev TT33. Its a 7.62x25 Russian made pistol, and its round is a bottlneck style, not wide but long. So it packs a good punch.

HK makes some good hand guns.. USP, MK23, but alas these are all quite expensive...

Walther is a good handgun, German made, not too expensive.

Have you looked at any of the offering by Mauser?

I still like the CZ 100, or the CZ 75 series. Reliable, cheap, well made.

I am a gun nut myself...

Makarov, named after the designer...

"Baikal" is the name of a large lake in Siberia. It is also the trade name of Ishevsky Mechanichesky Zavod (SUP IMZ), a large Russian arms and ammunition manufacturing plant founded in 1942 as part of the Russian National Defence Industry. This was the darkest year of the Second World War in Soviet Russia, and guns were desperately needed to fight the invading Germans. SUP IMZ is still government owned, and is located in Izhevsk, Russia. They manufacture a wide range of military and civilian arms. European American Armory (EAA) of Sharpes, Florida is the exclusive importer of Baikal products at the time of this writing.

The Russian-made Baikal IJ-70 pistol is often referred to simply as the "Makarov." I call it "The gun that lost the East," since it was the service sidearm of the Soviet Union throughout the Cold War. At present the IJ-70 is not being imported into the U.S., having been discontinued in 1996. Makarov pistols from other ex-Eastern Bloc nations of similar specification are still imported, however, and Baikal IJ-70's are available on the used market.

What we have here is basically a Russian copy of the famous Walther PP (Police Pistol), which was widely used all over Europe by both Police and civilians at the time the leaders of the Soviet Union decided to replace their aging Tokarev service pistol.

The Soviet leadership, as usual, wanted a simple and durable weapon that could be inexpensively mass-produced, and they were willing to sacrifice state of the art ballistic performance to get it. The new pistol was to serve as the duty sidearm of the various branches of the military, as well as the police, the KGB, and all other government agencies. It would become the service standard for the entire Soviet Union and its satellites.

Locked breech designs were rejected in favor of a simple blow back mechanism in order to hold down manufacturing costs. The Walther PP design was selected as the basis of the new pistol. Germany had lost the Second World War and was partially occupied by the Soviet Union, so there would be no problem with patent infringements. Communists refuse to recognize intellectual property rights in any case, just as they refuse to recognize other property rights.

The result was the adoption of the famous Makarov pistol, which is a slightly simplified Walther PP with an enlarged trigger guard. Russian cops and soldiers need to be able to reach the trigger while wearing heavy winter gloves.

It was chambered for a Russian version of the .380 ACP (9x17mm or 9mm Kurz) cartridge, since that was the most powerful round that the basic Walther PP design could accommodate. The new Russian cartridge used an odd diameter .364" (approximately 9.2mm) bullet in a case 1mm longer than the .380's, and became known as the 9mm Makarov or 9x18. Ballistically it remained a near twin of the .380 ACP.

Like the PP, the Makarov pistol has a fixed barrel, a plus for accuracy. It is a conventional double-action/single action semi-automatic pistol with a hammer drop safety on the left side of the slide (up for "safe" and down for "fire"). Activating the safety returns a cocked hammer to the down position and locks the trigger, hammer, and slide. The Mak has a rebounding hammer, and it is safe to carry an IJ-70 with the safety off and the hammer lowered over a chambered cartridge. The slide stays open after the last shot, and there is a slide release lever on the left side of the frame, where it is easily reached by the thumb of a right handed shooter.

The IJ-70 is a smallish service pistol, about the size of a Glock 19 in height and length, but slimmer due to its single stack magazine. The steel magazine holds 8 cartridges and is released by a European style heel clip. According to the IJ-70 owner's manual the pistol is 161 mm long, 126.7 mm high, and 30.5 mm wide. The latter dimension is increased to 34mm if a wrap around rubber grip is fitted. The empty weight is .73 kg (about 25 ounces).

The Makarov pistol served the Soviet Union well right up to the collapse of the Communist system, and continues in widespread use in Russia today. Red China uses a domestically produced version of the Makarov pistol, as do several other former Soviet client states.

Most of the various Communist countries produced Makarov pistols locally in their own factories. Quality and workmanship varies depending on the country of manufacture. The East German and Russian Maks are generally regarded as the best, and the Chinese as the worst. The others fall somewhere between the two extremes.

The Makarov pistols produced in Russia for export were marked "Baikal IJ-70" and were available in either .380 ACP or 9mm Makarov caliber. The barrels are bored differently, of course, since the .380 has a groove diameter of .355" and the 9mm Mak has a groove diameter of .364" but everything else is the same, including the magazine (which will accommodate either cartridge).

The IJ-70 is an all steel pistol with a polished blue finish and a fully adjustable rear sight. It came with two magazines and sometimes other accessories, such as a cleaning tool and a service style holster.

My IJ-70A Mak, the test gun for this review, is chambered for the .380 ACP cartridge, which is more widely distributed in the U.S. than the 9x18. It is a reliable and well made pistol that feeds modern JHP bullets without a problem. It will fit in almost all commercial holsters designed for a Walther PP pistol.

At about 1/4 the price of a Walther PP, I'd call the Baikal IJ-70 a bargain. When new the Baikal IJ-70 was in the low price range of the cheap Lorcin and Raven zinc framed .380 pistols, but there is no comparison in terms of quality and shootability. There are cheap guns and then there are inexpensive guns--the IJ-70 is inexpensive but not cheap.



Originally standard auto loading pistol of the USSR, 9x18MM originally, PM is for "Pistol Makarova" or something like that. Produced in almost all Communist sattelite states. I am positive of this because the 9x18MM round is often referred as "9mm Makarov"

[el presidente]

Originally posted by w126
what's the "best" handgun for home protection? I used to own a S&W 586, that my wife even felt comfortable shooting. Should I go for another revolver or look at semi-auto?

Get another .357 magnum. Excellent reliability and plenty of stopping power.

The plus is that your spouse was comfortable shooting it.

[el presidente]

Originally posted by w126
Thanks, E.P.

That's what I was thinking, but may go the Ruger route. From a politcal angle, I don't really want to buy a new S&W since they have given in to some of the anti-gun zealots -- "smart gun" technology and such.

Smith & Wesson is under new ownership. NRA endorses them now....I would no longer consider that a factor, but it is your choice of course.

Not claiming as my own Narwhal! I admit to cutting and pasting that, but I do know original Makarovs were chambered in 9x18 and made in the Soviet Union to replace the TT-33

And I believe it was made in Germany, probably East Germany actually, which was I believe the second or third largest producer after the Soviet Union.

Russian and East German Makarovs are the best quality out of the ones made in the Eastern Bloc/ Communist countries..

Maybe your gun was rechambered for 9mm Luger?

I myself like the Beretta stuff. The m92fs just fits my hand so well and behaves beautifully. I also like the value of the CZ75- hard to beat it for the money. That's just me though. I have lesrned that everyone has a different flavor on handguns, and to me as long as they do what you want them to when you NEED them to, then all is well.

thanks for the replies, OK, back to the glock 40:

can anyone suggest a better value for the dollar than the glock?

the only neg i saw was someone mentioned the safety. i would never carry with one in the pipe, thus requiring a deliberate action to arm the weapon. i cant imagine anything safer (excepting keyed locks for family households)

like i said earlier, local LE dist has clean used for $400 (some even unfired) and new for $575.

is that pricing good? fair market value?

thanks in advance. - benton

[Gilly]

Since this is a open discussion in regards to handguns, what's the "best" handgun for home protection?

Ted:
I just mentioned this in another thread.
What I have heard makes sense: Just leave a pump action shotgun under the bed. Load it if you want, but the point is, if you think someone has entered the house, just crack open the door and pump the shotgun. Intruder GONE! If not, and you have it loaded, your aim will matter little, just a "point and shoot", like a camera. Say CHEESE!

Gilly

[hill]

I have found that the fit seems to be more important than the manufacturer. I love the way the 1911 MarkIV's fit. On the other hand no matter what grip I put on a SW 29 it feels awkward but the Colt Anaconda fits like a glove and is the same weight and dimensions as the 29.

[el presidente]

Originally posted by ThrillBilly
thanks for the replies, OK, back to the glock 40:

can anyone suggest a better value for the dollar than the glock?

the only neg i saw was someone mentioned the safety. i would never carry with one in the pipe, thus requiring a deliberate action to arm the weapon. i cant imagine anything safer (excepting keyed locks for family households)

like i said earlier, local LE dist has clean used for $400 (some even unfired) and new for $575.

is that pricing good? fair market value?

thanks in advance. - benton

Sounds to me like you are leaning towards the .40 Glock. Nice choice.

As far as transporting in a vehicle, the State of Georgia basically adopts the stand that your automobile is an extension of your home. Without a permit, you can transport a fully loaded firearm in the trunk, glove compartment, on the dash and (fully exposed) laying next to you in the passenger seat. You may not (without a permit) conceal the weapon under the seat, in between your legs, the driver's side pocket of the door or any other location the officer deems "concealed."

Hope this helps