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  #106  
Old 10-03-2012, 09:50 AM
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Also there were several threads of negotiations occurring at the same time. Some of the most crucial exchanges IRRC, occurred between a very young Robert Kennedy and a low level soviet official who he happened to know in a diner in the DC area.

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  #107  
Old 10-03-2012, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
Yeah, I read post 91. I must have missed the Federalist Paper on the extraconstitutional supremacy of federal authority.

So in your opinion the federal troops would have invaded the southern states no matter what the south did?
We have always heard a lot about the Federalist Papers but very little about the Anti-Federalist papers. The D.C. crowd sees themselves as Kings and according to them, States and State's rights are zero, nada, zip, zilch.

Imperialism, it's what's for dinner.
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  #108  
Old 10-03-2012, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by HuskyMan View Post
We have always heard a lot about the Federalist Papers but very little about the Anti-Federalist papers. The D.C. crowd sees themselves as Kings and according to them, States and State's rights are zero, nada, zip, zilch.

Imperialism, it's what's for dinner.
something a dissolution of the union would certainly have promoted. What makes you think that with the American colonies divided into two weaker nations, that imperial powers in Europe would not take that opportunity to cut off sections of North America?

What makes you think Mexico would not have taken the same opportunity to take back California, Nevada, Utah, and New Mexico, all of which they had ceded to us at the end of the war?
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  #109  
Old 10-03-2012, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by dropnosky View Post
...
If the southerners were so respectful of states rights, why did they make a move to upset the balance and decision of the actual residents of the state?
Did they attempt it by force of arms or through legislative and judicial proceedings?
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  #110  
Old 10-03-2012, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by dropnosky View Post
something a dissolution of the union would certainly have promoted. What makes you think that with the American colonies divided into two weaker nations, that imperial powers in Europe would not take that opportunity to cut off sections of North America?

What makes you think Mexico would not have taken the same opportunity to take back California, Nevada, Utah, and New Mexico, all of which they had ceded to us at the end of the war?
Wouldn't have had the ability to enter Korea, Vietnam, Granada, Panama, Lebanon, Iraq or Afghanistan. Damn.
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  #111  
Old 10-03-2012, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
Did they attempt it by force of arms or through legislative and judicial proceedings?
Border Ruffian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Excerpt, ive highlighted some interesting quotes-



"The Border Ruffians were pro-slavery activists from the slave state of Missouri, who in 1854 to 1860 crossed the state border into Kansas Territory, to force the acceptance of slavery there. The name was applied by Free-State settlers in Kansas and abolitionists throughout the North. Armed Ruffians interfered in territorial elections, and attacked Free-State settlements. This violence was the origin of the phrase "Bleeding Kansas". The Ruffians contributed to the growing sectional tensions, and helped bring on the American Civil War.[1]
Notably, only a few of the Border Ruffians actually owned slaves; most were too poor. What motivated them was hatred of Yankees and abolitionists, and fear of free blacks living nearby.[2] The Ruffians were driven by the rhetoric of leaders such as U.S. Senator David Rice Atchison of Missouri, who called Northerners "negro thieves" and "abolitionist tyrants." He encouraged Missourians to defend their institution "with the bayonet and with blood" and, if necessary, "to kill every God-damned abolitionist in the district."
Ironically, the bulk of Free-State men in Kansas were not abolitionists, and opposed the presence of both free blacks and slaves. "We want no slaves and we want no Negroes" was the prevailing sentiment reported by an abolitionist in 1854. [3]
Additionally, the presence of bands of both Kansan and Missourian combatants in the area made it difficult for families on the border to remain neutral."
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  #112  
Old 10-03-2012, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
Wouldn't have had the ability to enter Korea, Vietnam, Granada, Panama, Lebanon, Iraq or Afghanistan. Damn.
whos says not?

what I find most interesting is what would have happened come 1914 if European history was the same?

Would the CSA have allied with Germany? Would the USA have allied with Germany? is it possible there could have been a mason/dixon line front extending for 2000 miles and Americans using poison gas on Americans?

Interesting to speculate.
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  #113  
Old 10-03-2012, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by t walgamuth View Post
There is a long article in the new Smithsonian about Jefferson and his attitudes about slavery. Although he wrote eloquently about how men are created equal he never freed his slaves and had them beaten when they did not work hard enough....even young boys ten years old.

He wrote to friends about the economics of it saying basically that one of his chief forms of wealth building was the birth rate among his slaves which created more young ones than the ones who died of old age.

He also borrowed a huge sum of money using his slaves as collateral to rebuild Monticello in his later years. Upon his death they were all sold off to pay off mortgages, splitting up families in some cases seven and eight different ways.

George Washington on the other hand freed his slaves on or near his death but gets no credit for it historically.

Disappointing.
I find it interesting that Robert E. Lee gets no mention in this conversation.
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  #114  
Old 10-03-2012, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by martureo View Post
I find it interesting that Robert E. Lee gets no mention in this conversation.
Lee lived in a different generation. Fifty years later more or less.
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  #115  
Old 10-03-2012, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dropnosky View Post
Border Ruffian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Excerpt, ive highlighted some interesting quotes-



"The Border Ruffians were pro-slavery activists from the slave state of Missouri, who in 1854 to 1860 crossed the state border into Kansas Territory, to force the acceptance of slavery there. The name was applied by Free-State settlers in Kansas and abolitionists throughout the North. Armed Ruffians interfered in territorial elections, and attacked Free-State settlements. This violence was the origin of the phrase "Bleeding Kansas". The Ruffians contributed to the growing sectional tensions, and helped bring on the American Civil War.[1]
Notably, only a few of the Border Ruffians actually owned slaves; most were too poor. What motivated them was hatred of Yankees and abolitionists, and fear of free blacks living nearby.[2] The Ruffians were driven by the rhetoric of leaders such as U.S. Senator David Rice Atchison of Missouri, who called Northerners "negro thieves" and "abolitionist tyrants." He encouraged Missourians to defend their institution "with the bayonet and with blood" and, if necessary, "to kill every God-damned abolitionist in the district."
Ironically, the bulk of Free-State men in Kansas were not abolitionists, and opposed the presence of both free blacks and slaves. "We want no slaves and we want no Negroes" was the prevailing sentiment reported by an abolitionist in 1854. [3]
Additionally, the presence of bands of both Kansan and Missourian combatants in the area made it difficult for families on the border to remain neutral."
Oh, ruffians. Kind of like lawless people acting outside of government. You know, like Lincoln.
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  #116  
Old 10-03-2012, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by dropnosky
something a dissolution of the union would certainly have promoted. What makes you think that with the American colonies divided into two weaker nations, that imperial powers in Europe would not take that opportunity to cut off sections of North America?

What makes you think Mexico would not have taken the same opportunity to take back California, Nevada, Utah, and New Mexico, all of which they had ceded to us at the end of the war?


The Botster responds: Wouldn't have had the ability to enter Korea, Vietnam, Granada, Panama, Lebanon, Iraq or Afghanistan. Damn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dropnosky View Post
whos says not?

what I find most interesting is what would have happened come 1914 if European history was the same?

Would the CSA have allied with Germany? Would the USA have allied with Germany? is it possible there could have been a mason/dixon line front extending for 2000 miles and Americans using poison gas on Americans?

Interesting to speculate.
Damned if I know. Do you?
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  #117  
Old 10-04-2012, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
Originally Posted by dropnosky
something a dissolution of the union would certainly have promoted. What makes you think that with the American colonies divided into two weaker nations, that imperial powers in Europe would not take that opportunity to cut off sections of North America?

What makes you think Mexico would not have taken the same opportunity to take back California, Nevada, Utah, and New Mexico, all of which they had ceded to us at the end of the war?


The Botster responds: Wouldn't have had the ability to enter Korea, Vietnam, Granada, Panama, Lebanon, Iraq or Afghanistan. Damn.



Damned if I know. Do you?
just speculating, but its interesting to me. Im a big fan of military history.

For instance, taking modern day production into account, 60% of all grain produced in the US is shipped via the Mississippi, from all over the midwest says the below site, and the river network is huge, going way up into the north almost to Canada, and stretching from Montana to PA.

interesting link and quote-

"Agriculture has been the dominant land use for nearly 200 years in the Mississippi basin, and has altered the hydrologic cycle and energy budget of the region. The agricultural products and the huge agribusiness industry that has developed in the basin produce 92% of the nation's agricultural exports, 78% of the world's exports in feed grains and soybeans, and most of the livestock and hogs produced nationally. Sixty percent of all grain exported from the US is shipped on the Mississippi River through the Port of New Orleans and the Port of South Louisiana."

source- Mississippi River Facts - Mississippi National River & Recreation Area

Imagine if the outlet of this huge river network was controlled by another country, that enormous production and shipping needs for the midwest USA must pass through the CSA to reach open sea and be exported around the world.
I can see potential conflict right there. It would be like an American Gibralter. A natural choke point that people have been fighting over for thousands of years now.
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  #118  
Old 10-04-2012, 06:05 PM
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Most of the natural gas shipped to the USA comes into a little known village in Louisiana named Henry. Danged Haynesville and Marcellus shale will probably change that. Think of all of those deckhands and firemen put out of work by the evil oil companies.

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