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Are you sure your descrbing the changes in a 95 or 96. My fathers 95 S600 definately has half of the features you memtioned that were deleted. His has the pwer back seats, power back head rests, the better climate control panel, and the mini antennas that stick up when in reverse. Im pretty sure that the S600 came with these features standard. Some of the storage compartments are not availible because of other features. If the car has the rear climate control, then the storage compartment under the armrest is no longer availiable because of the ducting and wiring. This is the case in my father's car at least. |
No 'maybe' about it. . .
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There still seems a . . .
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Unlike the current punker/gangstas that set the seat height to the bottom so that all you can see is 'part' of a head, I have my seat height adjustment all the way up. I'm almost 6ft tall and even with that, I can't the the trunk of the car. The visibility is not limited; there is NO visibility! Without the pop-up antennas, there would a lot of dents/scratches in the rear bumper. Maybe it's now clear what I mean? I hope so! |
Jim, do you think this is worse on the coupe than the sedan or is the sedan just as bad?
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Visibility
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LOL Jim is taking this a bit too seriously. But I agree with him. Visibility is pretty limited with the car. They help out a lot when backing up and since I live in the city this happens every day all the time.
I must say one thing they did improve in the later 140's was the climate control. It's hard to change the temp while driving because the little wheel doesn't have notches for each degree so you don't know whether you moved it one degree down or 5. :eek: The new ones I believe had push buttons rather than wheels which is much easier. Plus it doesn't help that both backlights are burnt out on the climate temp readings so now I have to turn on the interior lights when changing the temp at night. |
I had the first run 1992 500SEL, its was an awesome car, and with the exception of being a Mercedes the 140 shares little with the 126 in its execution or the experience when driving one. That being said, I can also say it was a nightmare to own, and mine had the awesome "everything covered Maintenance program," even my tires were replaced under warranty, but then again it did go through 3 sets of them in under 30,000 miles. I experienced EVERY problem mentioned previously: evap, seats, mirror, window closer/opener (which by the way was standard issue on ALL 140's, there was no "convenience pkg" in 92 or 96, not sure after that), front end shimmy, tire wear, bose amp, inst cluster (one blown when it was jump started), trunk closer, transmission, etc ALL under 30,000 miles. It was a hassle to keep taking the car in for repairs. I traded it in on an 1996 S500 which was vastly improved with respect to reliability for the two years I had the 92. I didn't really notice any diff. in leather quality (seemed identical to me), but I did notice that several features were either optional or no longer available like the "maintenance" program, the necessary rear backup guides and the power rear view mirror, sideview mirrors smaller (not sure why, as this car needs BIG mirrors), the stereo was diff. & now had a weather band like BMW, the climate control panel was easier to use & SEE, but did feel cheaper. I always liked the "thumb wheel." it has a glass sunroof (not avail in 92). The rear pwr seat was an option in 96, but was standard in 92, but then again the 96 was cheaper in MSRP. Not sure about the 95, but my door panels were different (no cubby bins) because mine had side airbags that were not available in 92. Those are the things I can remember it has been a few years <grin>. I loved 140, but needed to pull a 26 ft boat, so it was ultimately replaced with a 1998 Lexus LS400, and my tow vehicle a 1998 4x4 Suburban Diesel which I still have. If I wanted the most car for the least amount I'd by a used 140, but only if all the weak points have been RECENTLY repaired, or it was really cheap.
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Talking about the reversing guides, the '95 brochure I have list them as standard equipment. I special ordered my car and it came in about the first of May 1995 and it did not have the guides. Some that came in a month earlier had the guides. I was really ticked at the time and the salesman deducted the price of the glass sunroof to make me feel better. I thought they were neat.
My car does have map pockets in the front and rear doors though. And the leather on the seats; I could not ask for better leather. My car has the bumpers and lower panels that have the crease. In my opinion it makes the car look smaller than the ones without the crease. I had to replace my front bumper when my wife pulled over a cross tie then backed up, hairlipping the bumper. Could only get the one without the crease. Bummer! I think '95 started the process of building the car cheaper. I don't think it was all done in '95. But I still don't think the items we are talking about makes 20-30K difference. I do know that dealer margins were lowered also at this time, because I had been looking up dealer cost on the car for a couple of years. Was really not where I wanted to be financially when I ordered the car but it was then or never. Mine is one of the last ones imported. |
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There is a post I started on the Featured Cars forum named "W140 vs. W220" where most issues about the difference between pre-95 and post-95 W140 cars are covered.
Check it out at: http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/tech-help/19772-s-class-fiasco-w220-vs-w140.html I own a 1998 S 500 L with a little less than 30k original miles on the odometer. After owning a W123 and some W124s, the W140 definitely outshines every M.B. I have ever driven (and I have tested quite a few). Yes, they are not cheap to mantain, but it is not a cheap car to begin with. Yes, the W140 was considerably cheapen after the '95 facelift, but also major production problems were almost sorted out for 97-99. Some persisted forever, like the evap and wiring problems, but others were certaintly cured and fixed. Also, post-95 models, as they were cheapen, were also simplified in many areas in engeeniring complexity, hence many systems and electrical gremlims are MUCH MUCH cheaper to fix on a post-95 than a pre-95 model. Just compare side to side part PRICES and the NUMBER of parts required to fix an specific job, which I usually do just as a hobby. |
I'm curious, lots of people are using the "pre" and "post" 1995 reference. Where exactly does a 1995 model fall?
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Good question. U.S. 1995 models fall in the POST facelit group.
In Europe and for almost the rest of world markets, the facelift started production around july and august 1994, hence you might find facelifted W140s in some markerts as 1994 model year vehicles. The process of the facelift, as it is the case in most M.B. production cars was gradual and many of the improvements and/or changes were introduced at different times. The major "look" change (new headlights, new rear lights, re-design side mouldings, new front an rear bumpers and new interior door panel upgrades) was the one that was introduced in the middle of 1994 and for the U.S. 1995 model year. Other changes, like the electronic odometer, 5-speed electronic auto transmissions, new A/C center dash control panel, new upholstery materials, new colors, new sound systems, xenon-headlamps, parktronic distance control, new infrared remote locking, new light allow wheel designs, etc, etc, etc, where, as said before, eventually introduced during a long period from late 1994 to early 1997. Most of the changes mentioned on the aformentioned paragraph mostly introduced cheaper and easier to use versions of the previous units, which, by its original glory, were (as the rest of the W140) overly engeenired and overly expensive to fix and/or change. |
Whew! Made me a true believer!
:eek:
The friend (female attorney) who sold me our 1991 420SEL in Nov 2000 (106K miles) had been given it by her (multi++millionaire) Father in 1995. When his 1995 S500 was due for replacement, she got it... Tough life, eh? Since then we have added an additional 40K miles. Service/repairs have consisted of: 1 set of front brake pads & sensors @ an indy $150 2 sets plugs: I switched back to Bosch Supers (@ $0.99 each) after trying the Platinums 2 air filters $30 a $225 30K or major service @ 120K which consisted of a transmission service, a fuel filter, inc. all the inspections & adjustments called for in that service (@ the same indy) a new set of tires $250 a set of studded snows (used) $100 a 10 disk CD changer (RF, unfortunately), installed $150 my routine oil & filter changes every 5K, say $175 (?) coolant changes every 2 years, went to G-05 2 months ago $40 replaced all the belts & hoses so I have a spare set to carry in the trunk $100 replacement of a dash light (included in the 30K service) a couple fusible links & an alloy wheel that has never been mounted $50 Total $ expended over 4 years has been well under a grand & a half, not including insurance or gas... When her Father replaced the replacement for the W140 (which was an E-Class V8) she called me (as promised) as I had requested a 1st shot at the '95: she said she was never so happy to get a car from her Dad in her life, but that she "...WOULDN'T, JUST COULDN'T, in good faith, EVER SELL ME THAT DAMNED CAR!" Now THAT'S a real friend! |
W140 evaporator is $300
I was looking in Fastlane for some stuff and had been reading why I should not want a W140 so I looked up the price. The price does not look so bad. Perhaps the shop charge customers full price =$800?
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It's not the cost of the evaporator, it's the cost of getting to the evaporator.
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Figure $100 an hour x 20+ hours. Not to mention all of the clips and little crap that I'm sure they break and need to replace.
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How about this . . .
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I checked too -20 hrs. Too bad it was not designed to be fixed. Perhaps access from the other side of the firewall would have been better?
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W140 and reasons resale is plummeting
Replacement parts costs are shooting out of sight--and lots of parts fail on these cars. Even DIY's are getting hit real hard from now on. The cost of rebuilt or new electronics are soaring even higher--and OEM electronics quality sucks compared to US or Japanese durability. Wiring harness failures are inexcusable for a modern automobile.
I have been a loyal MBZ fan since '78--starting with a 108 280 SE, then W114 250/8, a 380SE gray mkt AMG rocket (by far the fastest car of the bunch), 500SEL, 560 SEL (best car ever had)--then the POS sl-600. My 2 Infiniti Q45's (92,94,both with active suspension) will run with the AMG (155+top), get 20 MPG@70, rarely require anything other than routine service and brake pads, and have convinced me MBZ is a dead duck still flapping around. Go drive the new Q45 and see what $25K less money than a S-500 willl get you. Drive a car done right by performance enthusiasts--not egomaniacs with Alzheimers. |
evaporator access 190e , possibly 124
I have a link to a post where the 190 evaporator was accessed through the engine compartment firewall.
I wonder if you could do this with the 124? The guy did his in about 3 hours, I think http://www.2phast.com/190E/default.htm |
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Cheers, Gerry |
You have a point but . . .
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But I do disagree that you can't get parts for them at a decent price and if you are a DIYer, then it's not an expensive car to own. Of course, I'm biased by my own experience which has been very good. As I've said before, this has been the cheapest MB that I've ever owned. |
My experience is limited to American brands like Ford, Chevy, Buick, and Oldsmobile along with Mazda. I usually keep an automobile until it starts giving a good bit of trouble and has some squeaks and rattles. Out of all the brands I have tried, none went much over 100K before I moved on. EXCEPT Mercedes. The '95 S-Class has over 272K so I had no problem buying a '98 E-Class with 100K on it. Both cars are tight, no rattles, and very little repair costs. Dealer service charges are what drives up the maintenance cost. $80/hr labor is too high. Someone with an older Mercedes needs to be a do it yourself type of person. A lot of 140 cars for sale probably need some expensive repair work that the prior owner did not have done.
I don't know about the luxury Japanese brands but I find they tend to copy someone elses car and a lot of times they improve on it. The new Lexus look like a carbon copy of the 140 S-Class to me. |
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last few weeks seen a 1998 S320 for 16,950 and a 1997 S500 for 17,950...both with less than 65K miles.....BUT look at the values of the 126 cars.....MUCH lower..... as for the Q45....look at their resale value...talk about scary...talk about over 50% depreciation in 3 years...reliable or not the public must think the car is overpriced Warren 1992 300SD(sold) 2000 BMW 740i w/sports full spots package |
The used car market now is horrible for sellers. With money being so cheap their is a glut of new and newer cars on the road, and coming up for sale. I see LS400, and 430's at awsome prices. Their is a 1998 BMW 740IL in the paper for $16k. :eek: Now is a great time to buy a used car regardless of make I can't see them getting much cheaper. Once interest rates go back up I think the used car market will grow stronger.
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To see what they are worth look at kbb.com. Retail is what dealers are ASKING not what they get. Private party value is often slightly optimistic. Ebay I expect to be slightly low because there may be more apparent risk.
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One other major reason . . .
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So you want to buy a 'car'?? What do you ask yourself; 'how much will this car cost?". Sure enough when you look at the bottom line, it's considerably cheaper to buy a new car, BION! New car: 2005 BMW 325i; $15,500 plus tax. $2500 due at signing with a three (3) year lease. Interest rate is 0.9%. Payment $327/month. This includes financing the "$2500" cash down. If cash down, then payment is $284/month. Of course, you get 'maintenance' package plus warranty repairs. Used car: 1999 BMW 325i; 53k miles; $15,850. Finance at 4.69% for 48 months; payment is $420/month. No maintenance but 90 day warranty on 'drive train', etc.. This information was taken from the San DIego Union Tribune Sunday paper; 12/19/04. |
But after 4 years you will own the BMW that will still probably be worth $6k.
For us math challenged what would a $10k 48 month loan cost with a lower interest rate? For example if someone were to buy a late 90's E430 for say $16k and put $6k down. |
Yes, you are . . .
. . 100% correct but you and I use our 'reasonable' minds. The average Joe is looking for a car and NEEDS the bottom line to be as 'small' as possible.
Never mind that he doesn't OWN the car; it's NEW and there's no OTHER costs associated with the car. Plus he can show it off. Yes, he doesn't own it after three (3) years but he doesn't care: time for a new 'lease'. This is NOT a bad scenario if you need a car for business and can write it off. But for me (and probably you), we want a car that will run for a LONG time and we do not want any payments, period! I was just trying to relate REAL WORLD experience from my two friends that sell USED cars. It's what's happening. |
Answers to your questions. . .
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So your 10k finance example; payment is $229. For 66 month, payment is $172. |
Yeah were thinking the same thing. The only time I would ever lease a car is if I didn't have to pay for it, for example:
I purchase a two family rental house and after the loan is paid off it is throwing off enough excess money for a lease payment. Why should I pay for my own car? I'd rather have someone else get me a new one ever few years. :D But many people that I know don't look far enough ahead, they think only about what it costs each month. hmm a W210 may not be to far out of reach... |
Talking about giving cars away.
My neighbor bought a brand new 2004 GMC Envoy XUV last night. It was a fully optioned model, and full retail sticker was about $42,000. He bought the car for $28,000. They not only gave him $7,500 in factory rebates, but had to discount it another $6,500. Even new cars need huge discounts to sell. |
Yeah I know my unlce just bought a loaded 04 F150 last week. Sticker was $32k (I think) He paid mid $16k, with a $5k trade in but still $21k for a $32k truck? :eek: Their giving these things away, well at least GM and Ford are. :D I bet Toyota wouldn't do that for a truck.
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My dad is a big Toyota man, been driving them for over 20 years. But the discounts and rebates were more than he could stand. I had $2000 on a GM card and got a notice from GM that they topped it off to $3000 and sent a coupon for an additional $500 that I let him have. Add that to the $3500 rebate on new trucks plus the dealer threw in another $1000 of coupons and sold the truck for $100 over cost before the $8000 worth of rebates and coupons.
To make a long story short, he traded in a '97 Toyota Tacoma 4X4 with 128K and got a '05 GMC Sierra 4X4 for $10,000 difference - tax, title, and all! |
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Of course not. In fact, there's pretty much no profit in the car at all. The dealer makes some money, but GM doesn't. That's why quarter after quarter the automotive operations of Ford and GM post huge losses. These losses are then covered by the financing operations which are making huge profits on the loans they gave out several years ago. GM and Ford need to get their stuff together because with their respective financial divisions giving out 0% loans these days, there won't be much profit coming from them in the near future.
Actually, I just helped my friend get a great deal. I helped him negotiate his purchase of a 2004 Ford Expedition in June. He and his wife just had twins and didn't want to get a minivan. After negotiations, they got an Expedition Eddie Bauer Edition fully loaded with every single factory option, four wheel drive and even $6,000 rims put on by the dealer along with tinted windows worth $800 all for $11,000 under the MSRP!! Who is complaining? Definitely not him or his wife. But I guess they need those low monthly payments. Heck he once mentioned that his wife's lead foot only yields an average of 13mpg of driving in the summer. LOL |
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I'm willing to bet they lost money on this car. It was the last 2004 Envoy they had on the lot. We actually visited this dealer about a month ago, and looked at this car, but they wouldn't deal on it, so he walked away. The obvious problem with this car is that it was an outrageously optioned model. It had every single option that could be ordered on an Envoy XUV, with the exception of the DVD navigation system. It was so highly optioned, that at $42K you are clearly into a Yukon / Tahoe, or even an entry level Suburban. |
Well, I have read this thread until my eyes have crossed. :rolleyes:
If one of these cars (early W140) has an original and failing wiring harness, what are the symptoms? Does the car start stalling, warning lights go bezerk, do they catch fire from shorting out, or all of the above? Oddly, I have never heard of one catching fire, but it seems like it would be a major fire hazard... what, all of those frayed and exposed wires. :confused: Also, if I were to look at one, is there some wires in a easy spot to check to see if they are frayed, or is it not as easy as that? Lastly, was this wiring harness issue limited to the V8 W140s, or did it also effect the I6 W140s? I am assuming the same type wire was used in both? Reason why I am asking is since I have NO luck finding a local and suitable W126, I have broadened my search to some W140s I have been looking at. Some have had the harnesses replaced, as well as the evaporators, while others have "no clue" if they have been changed, which I am taking as a "no, it has not". :rolleyes: Lastly, wasnt 1995 the last year with the problem harnesses? Or was it 1994 - 1996? I may not need to know at all if my uncle gets that 1987 300SDL for me, or if that fails, I have two 88' 300SEL's I am highly considering, which may be better for me than a W140. :o Thanks. *** WOW, I just realized that Hattarasguy started this thread in 2004. :eek:;) |
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Another 'easy' place is the end of the CTS coolant plug; it's in the open and easy to inspect. Quote:
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Wow this is an old thread.
Now I can say that they are way over hyped. My friends S320 has been dead reliable, as has my other friends S600. Absolutly fantastic cars in all regards, better than my old W126. |
I think that it seems like W140s get a bad rap most of the time...
I really don't agree with what that mechanic said about them being the "biggest piles of **** ever" they couldn't be that bad. We're talking about a flagship Mercedes-Benz, not some cheap Pacific-rimmer. I think that Mercedes just had a different focus with this car than they did with the W126. Seems like they were thinking more "cutting-edge" then they were longevity. |
I had a 1995 S500 with 172k on it when I traded it for a newer Mercedes and I loved it. Didn't cost that much to maintain.
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The 140 bodies shouldn't be lumped all together. Some of them have multiple complex and/or troubled systems - ASR, ADS, ESP, automatic door closers, electronic transmissions, etc. - and others have none of those systems.
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They all have AC evaporators...
Sixto 87 300D |
I also think they get a bad rap. My '94 has been the 'best' MB and cheapest to maintain of all MBs I've owned.
Not counting tires, brakes and a battery, here's what been replaced: 1) DI module: $225 . . used from a NYC junk yard 2) Water Pump: . . . new, about $100 3) ETA: $750 . . . replaced w/ new one (got a price break!) 4) Motor Mounts: $45 . . bought from eBay . . new 5) Oil tubes: $50 . . replaced 6 that were bad. 6) Belt extender: $20 . . . used some old gears. 7) Headrest extender: $40 . . . replaced w/ new one. 8) Door Closing Assist: $45 . . . replaced w/ new one. 9) Spheres: $160 . . . replaced w/ new ones But as sixto says. . they all have 'evaporators' and if you keep the car, you will have to replace it. 10) Evaporator: $2100 . . included labor and parts (new compressor, exp valve, evaporator, fittings, refrigerant. In 11 years, I'd say that was pretty good. . :) |
Jim, do you think you will only have to replace the evaporator once? I have replaced mine, but is it a recurring problem or has the weakness been fixed?
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Paul is asking if your car has over 300K miles?? I guess he is implying that it could fail again around that mileage. I can say for-sure that I will never drive it enough to get to that mileage . . :( |
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Well, I did not get that 93' 400SEL, but still looking at a 1995 S500 (175K) and a 1996 S420 (161K). The 96' has a CEL light that the owner says has been on for a year, but the car runs perfect and has a new cat converter. A/C leaks down after 2 months - may have the dreadful e-core problem. I am not sure the signs of a bad core... if they are bad, would the A/C not be cold ever? Also does the 96' S420 have those complex systems (ASR, ADS, ESP, automatic door closers, electronic transmissions), or are they limited to the S500 / S600? |
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