Help! Occasional Starting Failures!
 

Hi all, I am new in this forum and I hope I would be able to get help from you guys here.

I have trouble starting my 1995 W202 C280. On occasions, the engine could not be started but instead the cranking sound from the engine could be heard and both the infrared lights (red & green) on the rear view mirror will start to flash alternatively. There are power coming through the car though the lights, stereo etc are working. I have to keep turning the ignition and the sound of the cranking keeps occurring. Eventually I gave up and took out the key and waited in the car for about 2-5 minutes and then the car would start up back to normal as if nothing had happened.

This problem doesn’t happen all the time but happens unexpectedly, say that I’m going to the bank or restaurant for 10 mins and return back to the car and this starting problem will occur; leaving me to wait in the car for 5 mins before it could start again.

Anyone has encountered this problem in their 1995 C280 W202? I have replaced:
- New keys
- New car battery
- A voltage regulator (for the alternator)
- IFZ Control Module

I have done these replacements and the problem still occurs! This has been going on for 7 months now ever since I had installed a new ECU. The MB dealer don't even know what is the cause.

I would really appreciate any comments from you guys?

This is the result i got the the readings in the HTT .

Any ideas?

have you replaced the batteries in the electronic key? have seen this problem before and is usually flat batteries or dead key. try using your spare key for a while this may help to diagnose if its a key fault. :)

Yes I have done that, even to all my existing keys. But this only apply when both lights (red & green) are flashing at the same time.

Mine existing problem has both lights flashing alternately....... and the engine could only crank...

when you have both lights flashing alternately and the engine is cranking but wont fire it means that eng control unit has either wrong or no can signal from Ifz. basically your key is coded to the Ifz control unit and when you put your key in the ignition the Ifz receives that code and verifies it, if it is a matched code the Ifz will permit the engine control unit to function, this signal is sent via the can data bus. i have found that sometimes if you turn the key too fast it will create this exact problem, I assume the coded key cant react fast enough hence Ifz sends no can signal to eng control unit and you get locked out for X amount of time. try turning the key slower to allow for all that data to be processed. :)

Thank you so much for your input Ozzy!

Your feedback is one of the most convincing ones I had for these 4 months!

So when the lights flash alternately, it means the ECU has no/wrong signal from the IFZ? Because I have recently replaced the IFZ Control Module and it didn't seem to help.

As of yesterday, the MB dealer has re-ordered a (coded) new key and new (coded) IFZ control module again for a another trial/test.

Apprieciating and awaiting your comments..

Usually when attempting to start the car I don't turn the key fast at all; I usually, leave at position 2 (ON) until the SRS lights go off and then I start the car. But on occasions when I am in position 2, the lights started blinking alternately, from there I knew there is no need to start the car as it will only crank but just wait for 5 - 10 mins again.

Do you think the IFZ Control Module and key is the cause of this fault?

the IFZ module is most likely the cause of your concern, it is responsible for two things, a; infrared remote central locking. b; drive authorization system (das2). looking at your test printout you have CAN: no reception from IFZ. this can be caused by three problems A; faulty IFZ control module B: faulty transponder coil (serves as the data link between the key and IFZ module) C: faulty key. check the part number on the IFZ module it must be 210 820 32 26 or greater such as 210 820 32 27. unfortunatly this concern can be hard to diagnose as HHT (hand held tester) has very limited funtion unlike its replacement STAR DIAGNOSIS where you can test all control modules from about 1997 on. (about the same time they went to das3 electronic key). let me know how it goes with the new IFZ and key, in the meantime i will endevour to delve into the archives for more information. :)

Thanks for the reply Ozz,

1. 1.1 My old IFZ part number was 210 820 21 26

1.2 The existing one is 210 820 62 26

1.3 I do not know what is the part number on the next one that is being manufactured and eventually shipped here.

2. A) Faulty IFZ Control Module - There's a possibility it could be faulty (again)
B) Faulty Transponder coil - Something new to my knowledge
C) Faulty key - This suspicion can be eliminated, I have 3 keys and a 4th one coming soon.

2.1 What about the printout CAN: TRANSM. From HFM N3/4 Faulty
Do you know what this means? Or is it a common printout whenever there is a fault caused other components?

Sincerely thanking you for your comments.

looking at your original part number i would have said you definately need to replace the IFZ as it would be the original module and is surprising it hasn't been replaced sooner, since you have replaced the IFZ and keys i'm starting to think you have a problem elsewere, either in the transponder coil (surrounds the ignition/starter switch) but i doubt, as this would cause fault code IFZ locked out?? or maybe the problem is with the CAN data wires, if you pull the CAN wires from IFZ and try to start the car and then check for fault codes this is what you get: CAN: no reception from IFZ. when you take your car back to the MB dealer ask the tech to check the CAN wires (Controller Area Network) and if it still has connectors on that CAN line get them cut out and have them soldered directly (a lot of CAN faults are caused by faulty connectors) as for the first fault CAN: TRANSM; from HFM n3/4 faulty. i can't really say, it could also be a CAN problem, this needs to be rechecked by your benz tech, if it has reoccured since you last had your car in (they should have cleared all fault codes and retested) then you need to start looking at CAN wires and their connectors. good luck ;)

Thanks for the feedback Ozz!

1. 1.1 These two items were replaced in a different time. The new sets are coming in together and i assumed that they (MB Dealer) will synchronise these 2 simultaneously. Do you think it makes any difference?

2. 2.1 Yes, this simulation was performed right in front of me, that's when the MB Technician concluded that the old IFZ 210 820 21 26 was faulty and replaced a new one 210 820 62 26 (but it did not solve)

3. 3.1 So you think this has nothing to do with the HFM being faulty (Just a suspiscion)? All drivability performance are normal though.

I am sincerely appreciating your efforts and kind knowledge and especially making time to help me with my prolong problem.....

unfortunately it doesn't make any difference as the IFZ has to be initialized to the keys anyway, once it has been initialized it is no longer permissible to install the old control module (even for testing). otherwise malfunctions can occur in both control modules.
The part number on your new IFZ is the current number, this will be the same on the next IFZ.
hmm, could your problem be the HFM?
why was the HFM replaced? is the CAN signal getting to the HFM but it's not being recognised? has the CAN connector on the HFM been checked for correct fitment? i hope this may help :)

Thank you for your posts Ozz,

The reason why the HFM was replaced because it was misfiring whenever I tried to accelerate so therefore the workshop concluded that the HFM was faulty.

After the replacing this new HFM, everything was running smoothly except on the 2nd day after the installation, this problem started happening. But it went on intermittently despite going back to the workshop to reset the HFM.

Just 2 weeks ago, the dealer took my car in and changed the codings in the HFM and the problem happened again; so therefore DC at Germany advised to replace the keys again and IFZ under warranty. What kind of fault (if there is any) in the HFM cause this kind of intermittent starting failures?

There is another 1995 W202 C280 that was having the same symptoms as mine after the installation of a new HFM last 2 months and the dealer changed the codings as well on the same day he input into mine, there has no complaint from that owner (yet?) Any clues?

Its not the IFZ that prevents the engine from starting its the HFM, the HFM is always locked until it recieves a CAN message from the IFZ, so as soon as you turn your ignition on, the HFM is powered up and then it waits for transmission on the CAN data bus.
The DAS infrared control module (IFZ) evaluates the transponder data transferred and, if valid, releases the engine control via the CAN data bus.
now if the key, transponder coil and IFZ were all working as they should and validation is then put onto the CAN data bus, then the IFZ has done everything it needs to do, from here on its up to the CAN data bus to deliver validation to the HFM, but if it gets to the HFM and the HFM wont accept validation (fault in HFM) the engine will not start.
As far as coding the HFM, this is refering to version coding i.e: what eng, what transmission, what body type, what country etc. when a new control unit is fitted these codings are directly transfered to the new control unit, If HHT (hand held tester) can't communicate with the control unit, you would then have to enter codings manually. these codings are generally YES/NO options. The IFZ would not be part of version coding because its not an option.
I realise this is all a lot to take in and understand but hopefully it helps :)

Thank you for your answers and for your patience Ozz,


Please pardon my ignorance but I am really learning a lot in depth knowledge from you;

Is the CAN data bus the wiring harness between the IFZ and the HFM or a particular part in the car that could be check for faults and replaced?

Thank you.

The CAN data bus is a two wire network that basically loops around the car linking through each control module, one wire is CAN high the other is CAN low. It was primarily designed to reduce the amount of wires used in electronic/computer controlled motor cars.
basically, for an example of how one signal is distributed throughout the car (pre CAN data bus), I will use the crankshaft signal, the crankshaft sensor is wired to the HFM so it can determine fuel and ignition timing and then the HFM is wired to the instrument cluster so it can produce a tacho value and the HFM is wired to the trans control unit so it knows what speed the engine is doing and so on and so on, this would require miles of wiring.
Now how it is done using a CAN data bus;
if you can imagine all the control units are interlinked via two data transmitting wires (CAN data bus) all that has to be done now is the crank angle signal is put onto the CAN data bus via the HFM which continues on through all the modules and then any module that requires an engine RPM signal is programmed to accept that signal if the control unit doesn't need that signal say, like seat adjustment module then that CAN signal will pass straight thru. so its a little bit like sending a letter, you address the letter (crank angle signal) you put the letter in the mail box and it gets sorted (HFM) it then gets delivered (CAN data bus) and goes to the address on the letter (control units programmed to accept that signal) if you receive a letter thats not addressed to you, you put it back into the postal system (control units not requiring this signal)
The crank angle signal is a signal that would be constantly active on the CAN data bus, so it would be constantly going around the loop, and is given HIGH priority, a signal such as when you push the button to close a window is only on the CAN data bus whilst you have your finger on the button, this signal would be given LOW priority.
The CAN bus is a fairly bullet proof system but you can still have problems with it, such as the z connectors that connect the CAN wires, you sometimes have to cut these connectors out and solder them directly to rectify CAN signal issues
I hope this helps you to understand what and how the CAN data bus works, If the new IFZ and key doesn't fix your problem, I would suggest you start looking at CAN data bus and possibly faulty HFM. :)

Thank you very much for the very detailed elaboration Ozzy, I have fully
understand your explanation but I have one last (annoying and apology) query for you :)

1. Referring to the bolded sentence, may I ask : since it will be put back into the postal system (control units not requiring this signal), I understand that the proposed letter (control units programmed to accept that signal) will not function but how come the right signal will come back again 5-10mins after several attempts? Does it mean that the mail box and sorter (HFM) has reset itself (and the fault is stored)?

2. Where are you from anyway Ozz? I am from Brunei Darussalam, located in the island of Borneo.

Many advance apologies and and thank yous again for your patient comments.

Yes thats basically what happens, the CAN signals are blocks of data put onto the CAN data bus by each control module, so for instance the crank angle sensor signal would be a constant block of data on the CAN line, were as the signal from the IFZ to release the HFM would be one block of data sent once, I should also explain that CAN high is data sent from a control module and CAN low is data that is received from other modules. So when the IFZ puts the signal on the data bus it basically goes around once, If the HFM misses the signal :sleeping: for whatever reason then it wont release and the engine will not start, you then have to turn off ignition, remove key and then try again.
Where do i live? I come from a land downunder :sun_smile ;)

Thank you for the clarifications !

I think I understand now how the logistics work. So meaning to say that CAN High is from the IFZ and CAN Low from the HFM. Is it a norm for Mercedes vehicles on their HFM to miss signals sent from other control modules? Could insufficient power supply lead to this?

So cutting connectors and soldering them directly; is this a customised modification or a normal "plan B" approach for rectification? Because replacing the CAN Bus will not make any difference huh? I still doubt that the ECU that is at fault here :) Everything performance and function are operating on a normal basis.

By the way Ozz, can you re-attach the picture again in a larger size? The diagrams are visible but I can't make out the words. Thanks!

Which state of Australia are you in? I was in Melbourne, Victoria from 1997 - 2001.

Not really a common problem, but as with any electronic component you can have errors/glitches with them, the HFM may very well be receiving the CAN signal from the IFZ but it may have a problem with processing the data, the HFM is basically a mini computer and we have all experienced that dreaded screen lock up on your home computer, you have to reboot, and away you go again. so i guess you could say it could be a similar problem, you have to turn the key off and try again (rebooting).
the weakest link in any wiring loom is the connectors, but unfortunately it's near impossible for a car to be produced without them. most connectors are basicaly a female and male plug, the trouble with these connectors is they can become loose from heat stress causing bad earth/power problems, the quickest and most reliable solution is to remove the plug altogether and solder the wires directly.
remember earlier in my posts I wrote about how the HFM is always locked until it receives the CAN signal to unlock it, once it is unlocked it will function as normal with no problems at all, just like your computer wont work until you turn the power on.
over the border :)

Thank you for your clarifications again!

Now I understand how the IFZ, CAN BUS and HFM Module works and you know what is happening with my car. (most likely the cause)

I have been doing a lot of homework and researched many forums that could lead to why my car is behaving like this and the similat symptoms happening to other Mercedes models . Do you think other factors such as:

1. Over Voltage Protection (OVP) (Happen to a lot of E W210 classes)
2. Crankshaft Sensor
3. Starter Motor Pinion
4. Fuel Pump
5. Alternator

has/ have any relation to these intermittent starting failures? The MB dealer claimed that these 5 items are ok!? But I would like to hear your comments

Because you are getting the red and green alternating flash we know that the HFM has not been released and for that reason we can eliminate a lot of other possible non start causes. if the engine was cranking but not starting and we had no flashing lights coming from the infrared receiver (mirror) then we would be looking at other possibilities. just to reassure you i will go through and note what normally would result from these 5 items if they were faulty.
1) Overvoltage protection relay; if it was dead car would be stalling or would crank but not start at all.
2) Crankshaft sensor; very much the same , would crank but not start at all or engine would stall once started.
3) Starter motor pinion; would try to crank but make a loud screaching noise or not crank at all.
4) Fuel pump; car would normally still start but would lack performance or run very poorly and stall if fuel pump was very bad.
5) Alternator; if it wasn't charging you would be having battery problems, car would still run if jump started. :)
when are you going back to have the new IFZ and key fitted?

You're good man! This saves me my confusion! I think by now we can narrow down the possibilities! Power supply is out of the question. The most possiblities would be between:
1. IFZ Control Module
2. CAN Bus Wiring Harness
3. HFM (that is the last resolution and i Hope not) :)

The new IFZ and key will be arriving middle of next week but the MB Dealer may gonna keep the car in the workshop for observations (I don't know how long). I was just wondering why would they need a new key coming along together with the new IFZ? Does it mean that my old keys cannot be used anymore after the installation of the new sets?

Not sure why they have ordered a new key, because all keys will have to be initialized (learn in transponder) and then synchronized (learn in IR remote control key) you will still be able to use your old keys, just make sure you have them all on hand when you take the car to the workshop. ;)
just wondering, what were you doing in melb? :)

Will do that, these guys didn't even have the initiative to ask me to bring my old keys along in the first place, luckily i was prepared.


I was studying in college and in Uni. "Over the border" = which state ? How long have you been a Merc Tech/ Mechanic?

Sydney N.S.W, I've been a benz tech for 18 years. :)

18 Years, Cool!
That explains why I could understand all the explanations!

Anyway, I shall be flying to Kuala Lumpur in exactly 24 Hours from now for some meeting (s).

I shall be back on 23rd December 2004 and I hope by then, the parts have arrived and my car would be sent in during this period.

I will keep you posted. Thanks!

By the way, could I have your e-mail should I could not get in touch with you via this forum. My e-mail is thegirlilove@hotmail.com

Just got back from holidays, whats happening with your benz?
Unless I'm away I check this forum daily, I would prefer to assist you via the forum, that way it may help other members with similar problems :)

Happy New Year 2005 and thank you for your reply Ozz!

Hope you did not have your holidays in SEA though.

1. Well, my car is still in the MB workshop since last week, 27th December 2004. They said they need at least 2 days to check everything after the installation of the new IFZ together with the new and existing keys. So I guess I have to wait but I will call them up tomorrow for an update.

2. The other C280 that I mentioned that was re-coded in it ECU by the Service Manager (Ref. Post #13, 12-10-2004, 08:10 PM) was not rectified at all ( you were right). So therefore, the dealer is trying to replace the existing wiring harness of that car but Service Manager still insist that wiring harness is not the culprit.

3. I think from the above, we can conclude that the ECU is out of the “process of elimination” as it could not be a coincidence that both ECUs on 2 vehicles are defective?

4. What are the methods to verify that the DAS mode is functioning properly?

Thanks.

Hey Ozzy,

1 Just had a meeting with the MB mechanic this morning, apparently he has switched the rear view interior mirror/ receiver with their company’s C280 and took the car for a test. But the starting failure happened again.

2. I asked about the status of the other car as mentioned in my last post, he said that though it has the same symptom (alternate red & green lights), they just replaced the OVP relay in that car and it has not returned for a complaint since.

3. The mechanic advised that the reading from the IFZ transfer to the ECU on my car was sufficient but a failing OVP Relay may cause intermittent ampere rate fluctuations from the alternator?

4. All this time he thought that I have changed the OVP Relay and he was very surprised when I informed that I only changed the Voltage regulator in the alternator. Does this make sense to you?

Please comment.

The Overvoltage protection relay has three functions;
1) Voltage supply to electrical components.
2) Safeguarding circuit of electrical components.
3) limiting overvoltages.
It certainly is possible that it could be causing your concern, maybe you could ask your mechanic to swap the one from there company c280 for trial? :)

Thank you for you post Ozz,

It seems that the replacement of the OVP relay did not solve the problem at all. It happened again after the 2nd Day of the replacement.

At the moment, the dealer is ordering a new wiring harness from the factory in Germany as they say this is the last option.

I hope this CAN Bus wiring harness should do the trick; i was informed by the dealer that they are having similar complaints like mine in some countries in Asia too.

Going nuts by now!

I hope it does fix your problem, I think I would be going nuts also! :)

OZZY or Anyone............
 

Can you guys tell me what relay is this?

That would be a picture of an Over Voltage protection Relay, so hows your car going??

Man, I thought it was fixed for good.

An indie mechanic replaced the ovp relay on 22nd January 2005 and concluded that it would fix the problem but the d@mn thing happened again on 10th February 2005.

Does a failing alternator affect the IFZ transfer to the HFM?

I have an equipment (ref to the pic; have you seen this before?) to test the charging on the alternator. It seems that the alternator is not charging well because whenever I tried to switch on all electrical equipment (air con, lights, stereo etc) in my car.

Going nuts by now too!

Appreciate your comments.

I have the SAME PROBLEM!
 

Hey guys, holy moly, I have the same Problem!!!! I have a 94 C220. My car's been doing the same funny stuff as "thegirlilove" has been. It first started 2 years ago, once every month or two my car's engine would turn, everything would be normal, except it wouldn't start. During this time, I have changed, my fuel pump, engine wire harness, done an early complete tune up, changed the car's battery and many other smaller repairs. However, my problem kept getting worse, and started to happen more and more often. It reached the point 6 months ago where it would do it a couple times a week. Each time the car's fine, it won't start, so if you go for a nice long walk, come back and it would fire up just fine. However in the last 2 months it has gotton real bad. It does it every third time I start my car. Its embarassing, you go shopping, come out, someones waiting to park in your spot and you sit there for 10-15 minutes to start your car, and slowly your lights start to dim from all the power you've used attemting a bunch of starts. I was still fine using my beloved benz with this condition. I've taken it to my mechanic many times, and they put it on the computer, and tell me it comes out clean, with no errors, and can't seem to figure out what's wrong. I've spent $4500 dollars trying to fix the problem and it keeps getting worse.

Currently this problem has reached an all time bad, so bad that my wife won't even touch it, and calls it a peice of sh%t every morning when she see's it. Now when your driving the car, say on the freeway going 120 Km/h or in town at 80km/h, it stalls on you, and your journey comes to an end. So when your stuck on the road, the car won't restart, you'll sit there for 5-10 minutes if your lucky, and sometimes 30-60 minutes, for it to restart. On top of that, my car has recently burned out a relay which I can't seem to find. Sometimes, my turn signals, emergancy lights, misfunctiong wipers, and rear defrost all stop working, or working in spurts. The last 15 times, my car has stalled on me, and refused to start, half the times, i havn't been able to put my emergancy lights on and I sit there on the road, and people have almost managed to smoke my car, and find away to cut through the freeway pushing the car in netural to the shoulder. I nolonger am able to safely use my mercedes. When I bought my Car, North Vancouver Mercedes in Canada, sales man, "LOREN FREEMAN" told me, my Mercedes was engineered to be the best car in the world, and not only that, Mercedes car's were designed to be the safest. Right now, I nolonger feel like any mercedes dealership should tell their customers that, my car is no longer safe to drive, let alone be in.

So if any of you guys can help me, I would be very thankful. I know when I ever have money again, which this benz hasn't let me save up, I will have a hard time convincing my wife to buy another as a family car. The problem with mercedes is, they have taken some simple idea's and made them overly sophisticated for practical use. A moter can work for 15-20 years, but if you allow a computer to control it, that computers life span is usually 10 years max. With the new line up of mercedes, if you buy one, I hope you pray everyday once its 10 years old.

I sincerely feel your pain man!

I have spent around US$ 3000 trying to source out my problem.

By the way trueog, did you installed anything on your car before these intermittent starting failures strated occuring?

Basically the answer is no. The alternator has no bearing on car electrics. Its sole purpose is to charge the battery, unless of course it wasn't charging, and the battery was going flat, then it would have an indirect bearing on car electrics. At the other end of the scale if it was over charging, the over voltage protection relay would either shut down or blow the 10 amp fuse.

Has the engine wiring harness been replaced??.

nope, i cannot afford to purchase the wiring harness (if the dealer get to solve this) I still doubt that would be the fault

I guess i am not alone with this problem at all..:)

engine wire harness
 

The engine wire harness is very expensive, and they will charge you an arm and a leg for labor also. I was charged 8 hours diaognostic time, since it took them 2 days to figure out my problem, which they said was a engine wireharness falling apart. They ripped it out, showed me, and I was like, fine, its goning to cost me a fortune, but do it. The problem was never solved. I guess the brittle looking engine wire harness was still fine.

I use to have a sound system in my car, which I only kept in it for 4-5 months. Mechanic said, it might be sucking too much power, and causing the occasional problem. I took it out, and it never made a difference, and changed the battery.....i had a rockford fosgate amp (225.2), 2 - 12'' Rockford fosgate subs, 1 - 12'' phoenix gold sub, and two 10'' Pioneer subs, all of them in there at once, my whole trunk was occupied. Took it out, everythings sitting in the garage. But car's still working like crap.

Did you ask for a refund from these guys? (Obviously the MB Dealer right?)

The MB Dealer here charged me for new keys, car battery & IFZ COntrol module and there were no refund AT ALL!

A question for OZZY

Is the crankshaft position sensor located anywhere near the handbrake of a 1995 W202 C280?

Crankshaft position sensor is fitted at rear of eng just above starter motor.
Not near the handbrake. :)
Why do you ask??

Because I recalled that when the new ECU was installed by my the indie mechanic last year, i remembered them telling me that my handbrake needs to be realigned/ fixed and that when I drove the car,the handbrake warning light kept showing eventhough I had already released it before driving. Now why would they asked me to fix my handbrake when it was fine before they installed the ECU/ HFM in my car?

So i was just wondering if these guys did do something to the any areas or in the CAN area that could have led to affect my handbrake being loose as well as leading to a sensitive part of the ECU/HFM's connection?

I would appreciate if you could furnish any HFM related modules/ parts that are located near or around the handbrake area?

Thanking you in advance:)

A little help Ozzy?

As far as the hand brake is concerned, it's very concealed with no external moving parts other than the foot pedal.
But, the release cable runs near the ignition switch and below the IFZ module, I really can't think of any way it could be causing your problem. :)

Dear Ozzy,

Here’s a million dollar question for all MB Vehicles owners as of 1995!

Is it possible to replace the fitted interior rear view mirror (with the red & green lens) and bypass any infrared keys or features to operate your car?

What I mean is I want to lock, unlock and start the car the classic way, going to the doorknob and insert your key. Like most Japanese cars are…

I don’t even care if people ask why I am doing this!

I am in a deadly trance/ phobia of looking at the red & green lights flashing!

Can’t sleep, eat and work……

Unfortunately theres no way of emulating coded data, especially DAS, as the code is rolling generated, so every time you start your car, stored code is sent via CAN to release engine control and then code is written over.
Do you still have the old engine control unit???

Yes I still have it. But it was and still mis firing when i use it

Anything we could do with it?

This is what I would do, connect a battery charger to batt and turn onto lowest charge position, this will ensure battery doesn't go flat.
Turn the key to position two (all lights come on in cluster), and then turn back off and remove key. Do this 20 times, how many times did you get the dreaded alternating green and red flash??. If "0" you may have to try another 20 times, but first, hop out of car, close the door and lock/unlock car.
Make sure you note down exactly each turn of the key and what the result was.
Once you have done this, post back the results and I will tell you what to do next. :)