Transmission fluid replacement schedule
 

99 E430 - What is the recommended frequency of fluid replacement for the transmission? Is there a filter involved as well?

Thanks

Every 30,000 miles and yes there is a filter to change. I had mine done at the 60K service by my independent shop and the charge was $65.00 plus18.70 for the filter and $16.00 fior the fluid +$7.15 for the pan gasket

A 99 W210 would have the 5spd auto. That is a "filled for life" trans, however MB won't say what "life" means. I would say every 60k-80k, the dealer's only seem to charge $250. You have to use special MB fluid and a MB filter, also the fluid level must be checked when the fluid is at 80c. The dealer has a tool they stick in the dipstick tube to measure the fluid temp.

DO NOT DO NOT change the fluid on the transmission every 30k miles. You will be doing nothing but wasting money. The tranny that the first poster has in his car is the 722.4. It is a completely different bird than the 722.6 that was introduced in 1997 and that you have in your vehicle.

That being said, MB does not recommend any fluid changes for the life of the transmission. The general consensus here is to change about every 60k-80k miles. The only approved fluid is a special MB sythetic fluid and is about $13-$14 per quart. A change including torque converter drain will run at least 8 quarts. Yes, the filter is replaceable.

Changed mine last week @ 60k miles. Sent a sample off to Blackstone for analysis. It came back good. I got the fluid for $8.00/liter. Filter kit was $27 and the shop dipstick was $39. I will probably change it again at 120k for my peace of mind.

The problem with the "filled for life" is that MB never said who's life!!!

Cheers,
Steve

Are we saying that the original transmission fluid is good for say 250K miles ? given there's no dip stick for the transmission fluid, and the manual does not even mention what the intervals should be....

were it not for the fact that the conduit connector at the top right of the trans always starts to leak before 60k miles we may have had a chance to see what "filled for life" means.but when the leak is stopped it is obvious how dirty the fluid is and it is usually followed by a complete service.

is there a tell tale sign when the conduit breaks ? does the car come up with a warning sign ? as preventative maintenance, where is it located so I can keep an eye out for any leaks etc.
thnx.

IMHO fluid and filters are a Lot cheaper then transmissions.. I'm sure I toss away synthetic fluids that are doing just Fine, but having fresh fluid in there in peace of mind that I'm doing everything I can to keep said componentry alive.

I'd stick w/ 30K fluid and filter changes, it's cheap insurance.

Jonathan

It might be, if its not you will be rebuilding your trans sooner, and 722.6's cost a bundle!:eek:

MB has backed away from the filled for life ATF.

Anyone know what a 722.6 wholesales at these days? Last I heard it was about $3,000. Yeah its a real good idea to try to milk a few bucks worth of fluid in one of those.:D

I think that change it every 30k is reasonable if you plan to keep the car.

MB said lifetime ATF because they only guarantee the transmission working 100k.... After warranty period, no guarantee on it. If MB made lifetime ATF, does it means lifetime guarantee on the transmission from MB:D

Nope, still filled for life, unless the new ones have a schedule for change, I can check later. On the 722.6 MB has not revised the maintenance schedule, maybe some DEALERS have, but just because they miss the money, MB never told them to.
Think about it, how would MB make the most money, a recommended service (with purportedly "MB-only" expen$ive fluid, plus filter and gasket) every 30K or so, or selling trannies to , oh I don't know, lets say 10-15% of the fleet?? (and even that is on the high side I'd say, vocal minority in action) I think they'd opt to sell the service work, they make alot of profit on that fluid I'm sure, $10-12 a liter? How much do you think THEY pay??

Gilly

Heres my DIY thread on changing the fluid. Pay particular attention to the colour of the old fluid that had done around 170,000 miles:

http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=218282

I would recommend every 60,000 miles but its important to consider what kind of driving you do - if its mainly around town, changing gear regularly, then you may want to revise that estimate downwards.

Well, their cost to replace one of these transmission is most @ least in the 5-6K range.. I'm sure they are making their usual brutal mark up on the transmission and they have some wiz that can knock it out in a matter of a couple of hours.

Be that as it may, I change the fluid in my 96 S600 every 15-20K (doesn't' get driven much)...costs me 110-120 even w/ my discounts but I'd Much prefer that then R&R'ing that bloody box.

Jonathan

Right, but look at the economy of scale or whatever it's called, in others words recommend servicing them ALL every 30K vs replacing relative few of them. On a PERSONAL level yes if I thought it would really keep the transmission from failing (which I contend it WON'T), sure change it. From MBs outlook, they would stand to make MORE money by recommending the fluid change.
Gilly

They would stand to make more, but they also open them selves up to a lot more liability.. Better to call it life time fill and replcae it once every 100K I would think.. I'm sure they have had their share of techs messing up a trans fluid change only to have the customer come back demanding they replace their transmission.

Way I see it why not give the transmission best chance possible of lasting.. Hell, I know people who don't change their engine oil for 40-50+k..their engines all make it to 100,000 miles so what's to say we shouldn't all adopt that interval?

Jonathan

Well now your just being stupid;)

Gilly

Well, my good for life tranny in the ML lasted its life - about 150,000 miles worth.

Trans fluid black - like black paint. Little needle bearings in the pan. Rebuilt tranny + torque converter + shipping = $2295.00. I just finally got to installing it. Got fluid from the dealership at $7.75 per qt. Flushed the cooler and lines. I used 20 liters total, including wasting a bunch in the flush.

I knew better. I should have changed the fluid every 30k or so. I am changing again in 1000 miles just to be sure, then every 30,000. You say it's a waste? Let's see, less than $100 every 30,000 or $2,400 every 150,000.

You wanna believe MB on forever fill, fine. I learned something different. In all my years of driving, I have never had a trans go bad.

Prove that changing the fluid every 30K would have saved it.......
There's graphite in the friction discs, it turns black right away, comperable to say engine oil in a diesel. Just because it's black doesn't mean it's dirty, it's a sealed transmission, no "dirt" gets inside. That's same as saying green beer is bad on St Pattys Day.
Gilly

The Color of Money:

We have been conditioned to judge the quality of the transmission fluid based solely on it's color and smell. We have no way of judging the frictional quality. The rules have changed. The bright red color that we are all used to seeing may not be what you see when you look at the ATF in a 722.6. The reasons that the oil looks differently are as follows:

1) The oil may appear dark red due to the graphite material that the friction discs contain. This does not change the characteristics of the oil. Do not change the oil or transmission if the oil appears dark red or even if it has a yellowish tint to it. The color will change with time and temperature. As of 10/97, the manufacturer of the oil has agreed to put more red particles in the oil.

Gilly, I respect what you are saying, but, mine was black, burnt, and at least 15 needle bearings in the pan. The fluid clearly had metal in it. There was no magnet in the pan. Maybe the bearing that failed, and resultant damage, was all a result of an early Monday morning or late Friday afternoon bearing.

Maybe changing it at 30 k or 60 k would not have saved this tranny. But if it did, we would never know, now would we?

No, we wouldn't, true that. We can agree to disagree, n/p.
Black is one thing, burnt is another. We were told this fluid will be quite the same as an earlier transmission, that the "sniff" test is a valid one. I think you'd have some symptoms prior to the fluid getting to this point (burnt) though, ie clutches slipping and you'd be aware that something un-good is occuring in your trans. The black appearnce means nothing, this is a tranny, not an engine. On an engine, specifically a gas engine, yeah you normally don't associate black engine oil with a well cared-for unit.
Gilly

Gilly I was under the impression MB is now recomending a change at about 30k miles, then filled for life after that?

Anyway it isn't that expensive, every 50k-60k miles can't hurt.

Just checked with the old boss, nope, no change to the recommendation. Again the dealers may pull something to make people think MB changed it, but MB still maintains they are filled for life.
Gilly

Hmm interesting.

Our dealer does recomend it, they don't push it but if you ask they are more then happy to do it. All the service guys seem to think its a good idea, wonder why...:D

Because they can sell you a tranny service. Then on the slim chance the tranny lunches itself (which it'll do if it damn well feels like it anyways), then they can ALSO sell and install a reman tranny for you. They miss doing those tranny services like they did in the olden days.
Gilly

So Gilly, what's the recomendation on trans fluid change after a rebuild?

Based on your logic I don't feel as though I am..I'm just carrying it through to another aspect of drive train.

I find it odd that once MB started to offer long term warranty's their cars went from requiring regular/routine/all encompassing service to needing essentially no service.

The physics of the transmissions inner workings didn't change applicably, and while synthetic fluids are a vast improvement I do not believe they are that good. Plus, these new transmissions w/ more gears go through Far more changes their our old boxes and do said changes smoother w/ more slippage then a firm shifting box thus generating more heat and wear on the clutch discs.

I'll continue to change my fluid often and based on that will offer the same to my clients, should they choose not to I'll be happy to sell them a transmission sooner rather then later.

Jonathan

There is no specific recommendation that I am aware of, interesting question though. I know they test-run the transmissions in the factory on a test rig, so makes me wonder if some of the initial wear of the discs, if that stuff is flushed away on that rig, then the new stuff doesn't get all the graphite stuff in it so fast. I don't really thing that particular type of graphite material will hurt (and probably would actually help) the bearings. On a factory reman I'd just fill and forget.
Yes, agreed. The whole filled for life idea is hard to get over. I know it will work if you are lucky,I just don't think the fluid change is going to change your luck, I personally know of a transmission (722.6)that was doing fine on the original fill of fluid at around 300,000 miles. I think this is abnormally high, but shows that it is possible to achieve high mileage on the filled for life concept.
Well, yeah a component that is in no way sealed like the transmission is. Take into account the fuel, combustion gases (blow by), ventilation air, etc and it's easy to see how the oil gets contaminated. What contaminates the transmission fluid is wear of the internal components of the transmission, and once the clearances are worn out of spec in the transmission, it's a slippery downhill slope. You can change the trans fluid and maybe extend the life of the trans, but if the clearances are out of spec the tranny won't be hanging around very long. If everything is working OK it'll be perfectly fine with the original fluid.
Gilly

My understanding in regards to transmission fluid is that a fluid change is in Large part to renew the components that not only lubricate but those which provide grip to the clutches. You can have brand new fluid in a transmission, take it out and get the trans temps up around 300 and that fluid will be shot, providing little protection and little to no aid to the clutches. It will smell cooked but it will look Great.

In chatting w/ the Tech's I know when transmissions come in that are Just starting to act up they often find just a fresh round of fluid will do the trick and the transmission will begin to function normally again and this is most often with the new full electronic .6/.7's.

My white 91 gets Driven when ever it does come out and by 10K I can notice a difference in how she shifts.. Swap out the fluid/filter and everything is back as it should be. The fluid never smells terribly bad and the colour is still quite red.

I still don't see why for the relatively small cost of fluid one would not want to give their transmission every possible chance @ a long life of dependable service.

Jonathan

You do whatever makes you happy, Jon.
Gilly

Always have, always will...it's the only way to live IMHO.

Jonathan

Gilly
Allegedly, the trans I bought was "dyno tested". There is evidence it was. So it sounds like I can avoid an oil change in the near future. Agree?

Yes, just make sure the fluid level is correct, then wouldn't worry about changing it.
Gilly

So-called lifetime trans fluid
 

<<That being said, MB does not recommend any fluid changes for the life of the transmission. The general consensus here is to change about every 60k-80k miles. The only approved fluid is a special MB sythetic fluid and is about $13-$14 per quart. A change including torque converter drain will run at least 8 quarts. Yes, the filter is replaceable.>>

I read with own two eyes at my dealer the revised trans fluid mandate from MB. They now say "to be changed at 39000 miles" and I can't imagine where that number came from. Why not 40K?

In any case I had it done at 45K miles but since the torque converter has no drain plug, you end up putting in four quarts. Or was it liters? The one and only tech who works on my C320 told me if I really wanted to get it all out, he could do a pressure flush @ $$$. I declined. I did notice that the shift quality improved after the semi-change.

I'm checking again, just for you..........
Gilly

What ATF should I use in my 90 560SEL, I sure hate to see the orange color, debre from clutches what ever in the pan and the grey film from detergent breakdown between 30k and 80K. What do you guys see at your intervals? and your fluids?

i believe the 722.6 spec MB OEM fluid is not synthetic. anyway, MB has new OEM ATF spec'd for 722.9, and this new fluid is back-compatible w/ older mb trannies. it's cheaper as well, $7-8/qt vs. $12 for old fluid

We are talking about a totaly different trans!:D Use regular ATF, change it every 25k miles or whatever they call for. I prefer Mobil 1 ATF I think it makes these old trans shift a bit better.

Interval on the 90 is 30K, and use any fluid that states that it is DexronIII/Mercon. The synth already recommended is OK as long is it states that it "is" or is compatible with DexronIII/Mercon.
Gilly

You guys can change fluid all you want, but I'll be flushing mine with a flush machine. on my 300E, look at the crappy paper filter. What is that going to catch??? When you are talking microns...very little. Several shops that know what they are doing are now hooking a flush machine into one of the cooler lines and give a complete flush. They have a sight glass and can watch the fluid go from black to bright red. Most will use 16 quarts or more during the flush. And just because it looks red on your finger when you pull out the dipstick, doesn't mean anything. Pull out a sample and fill a test tube! That red on your finger, will look quite black in a test tube. My opinion....flush it! don't drain it.

Now I can't speak for those late models with no dipsticks, but most transmissions, even the late autos, have a plug somewhere for level check, even if there is no stick. GM and Ford did so, when they got the stupid idea to save a few bucks and delete your dipstick.

Only an opinion, but doing nothing, not changing or flushing, is about as stupid as not changing your oil.

Yes what you say is true, unless you have a 722.6 or newer trans.;)

1998 E430 Transmission
 

Why is the dipstick sooo special can't you just measure 53mm - 64mm from the bottom of a empty bicycle brake cable (the housing), warm up the trans then measure... Done deal..

BTW my 1998 E430 has the TC Drain plug

Transmission
 

I had a 1997 C230 I put 245000 miles on it and never touched the sealed for life trans, when I was rear ended and the car totaled the trans shifted as smooth as the day I bought it. My Mercedes dealer refused on a number of occasions to change the fluid. Also a number of mechanics I know say flushing the trans is the worst possible thing you can do, you are better off never changing the fluid

Good for them. Meanwhile, I'd rather weight the dice and throw a 6 every time by changing the fluid regularly.

Funny, one of the best thing to happen to me profit wise was/is Mercedes refusal to change transmission fluid.. I get Lots of 90's cars that have never had their trans serviced and because of which are needing their transmissions replaced @ right about 100-140K mark.

Jonathan

Interesting thread....I just purchased a 1999 ML430 with approx 60,000 miles. I am looking to change the ATF and filter. What type of tranny is in the ML430? ....from what I have read, it should have a drain plug on the converter and need aprox 8 qts?? not sure.... how many quarts / Lts should I purchase and of what type of fluid?

Thanks for the help.

BTW I already purchased a trans dip stick to check the level when I fill it back up.

Fluid recomendation for 300CE 91?
 

After spending about 2 hours reading a lot of threads on transmission fluid, I'm getting confused now...

I want to change it on my car (1991 300CE, engine 104.980, transmission 722.359) because it has 108k on it and I'm not sure when it was done last time (I've got it for 2 years now). The transmission is working fine (knocking wood...).

Could someone tell me:

- what MB recommend for that transmission (Febi?),

- what users have good experience with?

- is Mobil 1 ATF synth OK?

Thanks,

- what MB recommend for that transmission (Febi?),
Any name brand D/M III (or what ever they are calling it these days) will do.. Be it Shell, Exxon, Valvoline..

- what users have good experience with?
I've had Very good luck using Valvoline's D/M III Max life..that transmission fluid is actually approved for some boxes that call for Synthetic

- is Mobil 1 ATF synth OK?
Sure.

Jonathan

Wow, I am so amazed at all the controversy as whether to change the fluid on the "sealed for life" transmission. I came to this thread in curiosity about "when" to change the transmission fluid in my 1999 SL500.

I know this is a Mercedes forum, but I must let you know my experiences with my 1998 Ford Ranger. I have religiously had the transmission fluid flushed at 30 to 40K based on the recommendations from a good friend who is an ASE mechanic for more than 20 years. I once did not flush the fluid for almost 60K and noticed that when starting and shifting into gear the transmission would not engage and then suddenly with a "thunk" engage. This scared me a bit and I had the fluid flushed soon after and the problem no longer occured. According to my mechanic friend the transmission on a Ford Ranger will fail at around 100K without proper service, thus far I have 211K on my original transmission without any more problems at all.

Taking all this into account, I cannot believe that any transmission is "sealed for life". Parts do wear and contaminants can pass through filters, and if the contaminants do not pass through the filter, the filter will begin to slow the flow of fluid. In addition to this fluids (oils) begin to break down with heat, and if you say their is not much heat in a transmission, then why is there a transmission cooler?

Then there is the argument why Mercedes had the "sealed for life" transmission in the first place. As far as we know it very well could have been a marketing feature to tout how great their cars are and how great their transmissions and fluids are. I do not claim to be and expert by any means, just my own personal observations and knowledge of any device that has moving parts; where there is friction there is wear and contaminants will be introduced into the lubricants and even small contaminants will begin to cause increased wear. A previous post stated how even small contaminants can pass though a filter once they are small enough and this I agree. With this in mind, how better to rid the system of contaminants than by changing the fluid that holds these contaminants in supsension. So, if I spend $200 to $300 having a fluid and filter change will this really do any harm? I do not think so, in any case whether or not this may extend the life of my transmission I will take my chances that it will most likely will. In comparison a fluid and filter change is nothing in comparison to the cost of complete replacement of the transmission. I guess the other thing that scares me is not having any way of checking the actual fluid level in my transmission and with a fluid change, even for a small time, I can be assured that the fluid level is correct. Yes any transmission will eventually fail no matter what, sooner or later it will fail. But maintenance is the the best prevention for failure.

BTW why does Mercedes recommend changing the fluid in the soft top system on the SL500? Hmmm, maybe because of contaminants in the fluid? I am not sure wheter this system has a filter, in any case this is an interesting thought. Just my 2 cents for all it is worth, I guess in the end this topic is like that of the chicken and the egg, I guess we all have to make up our own minds.