NO Brakes! In Holland Tunnel
 

I recently had the Power steering pump replaced ( app 2 weeks ago). Two days ago the break line apparently was rubbing against somthing and broke. I basically lost all abiltiy to stop in the holland tunnel. MB is asking about $1300 to fix the issue. Can they be related? Is this a fair price?

2001 ML55

For a 2001 MB having a brake line fail, I would be very pissed off. How many miles are on the car? Have you brought this to your dealer for regular scheduled service? If so they should have changed the brake fluid once a year and there would have been no way that this should have happened. You should point this out to the service manager. If you did not use the dealer for service your on your own.

$1300 to fix a brake line sounds ridiculus. This should be about 1 hr labor and I will assume less than $100.00 in parts assuming a pre-formed line from MB. Or else $5.00 in parts for a bend it yourself line from Pep Boys.

I cant see a power steering repair causing this problem. They are not not near each other.

John Roncallo

Ron - The 55 is 73k on it. It was the break line the ruptured due to some type of rubbing against another line. I had the PS pump replaced 2 weeks ago and thought it may be related. I just recieved a call from the service manager and the want to knock off $300 bucks. If it wasnt an emergency i would have taken it to my own Authorized Dealer. And yes the care has always been serviced at MB

A break line failure is inexcusable. They should do the repair for free under goodwill, in my opinion. Especially for a safety defect that could have gotten someone killed.

So this appeares to be a line chafing issue and not a corrosion issue correct? Is this a metal line or a flexible rubber line. Is this line for the front or rear brakes. It is un-likely a chaffing issue could have been agrivated to failure in just two weeks. However chaffing is something that is usually caused by improper assembly and lack of attention to detail. It is this kind of issue that is the main reason I do my own service.

John Roncallo

just curious, the brakes did work and you were able to use the foot brake to slow down but with diminished braking, is that correct?

I would take a digital camers to the dealership and photo the ruptured line they are talking about. surprise them. And tell them you are going to file with NHTSA, which you really should do.

Brake line failure by rupture is probably the number ONE most extensively tested item done in vehicle development.

Even in off-road conditions anything that could possibly rupture a brake line is tested. Have you ever seen how brake lines are integrated into the chassis to prevent hang-up?

When did you have your brake pads changed? Unless you drove the front brake pads to death and drove on backing plates to cause heat related failure I cannot imagine how your failure happened.

You should also inspect that the ABS unit somewhat proximal to the power steering pump to make sure it wasn't damaged during the last service.

The ABS unit has a series of circuitous brake lines emerging from it to act as a damper against vibration failure. If a tool got hung up on them and damaged them in a previous service, maybe that occured. But that is unlikely and a tech would have reacted to that, still worth checking.

I just spoke to MB-NY and they will give me the broken break line. BTW - The car did slow down very slow when i pressed the breaks all the way. And they are charging me $1100 to change the break line ( $300 off, BS!). I called NHTSA and they informed me break lie failure can occur after 60,000 miles???. So i missed it by 13K! I should also mention i had all 4 breaks (pads) changed 2 months ago, so thats not an issue. I just find it horrible that im paying for a break line failure that nearly caused an accident and my life! They claim the break line was rubbing against another line! Its now 9:00 am in NY, i have to pick up the car at 12:00. Im going to speak to the service manager, what else can i make a case for?
And thank you for all the great feedback gentleman!

All you can find out is if the damaged brake line was underneath the chassis and could have possibly been exposed to road damage.
If the broken line is in the engine compartment then that would be strange.
Obviously something broke. After market wider wheels could possibly damage lines in the wheel well. Poor accident repair from a previous prang.
Try to get the repair order codes explained so we can all know how much you paid for individual parts an labor.
Was there a towing fee involved in tis charge?

Ethan - Yes i the the car was towed to MB in NYC. I believe the charges will be applied to my bill. The front right fender was painted and thats about it. The car has been serviced by MB from the beggining and they can see that. They are making it seem like they are doing me a favor by discounting me the $300. And i dont want to sound like a complainig house wife, but breaks cutting out while driving is pure BS! If they cant back-up their vehicles in this type of basic saftey failfure then perhaps a MB is not for me! I guess i will find out, and yes i will report all codes etc this afternoon. Thanks again Ethan and fellas

Lexus has a brake issue with the RX suv, either the NYT or WSJ reported on owners disappointed in Lexus refusing to purchase another Lexus.

I think Mercedes Manhattan is corporate owned.

Also your price for repair may be reasonable, depending on the location of the brake LINE could be tricky to replace the line. Seems like your not dealing with a simple brake HOSE connected to a caliper

Ethan, your right MB Manhatten is coporate owne and i purchased my vehicle directlry from MB Corp off lease. The rep did exaplain the line was buried somwhere deep in the vehicle and there was extensive work to access the line which leads me to my next question: If the line is buried inside the vehicle how can it be rubbing against another moving part, unless someone ( MB ) improperly installed/ repaired another problem and left this break line exposed. The line couldnt have been ruptured from some object from the road or anywhere else? Im lead to believe MB f--k up during another service, or it was a defect. What do you think? And how do you think i should make my case in about 2 hours?

Wow...I didn't know you could drive to Europe from here....an' I've bin going by plane all these years........! Coulda saved the car rental !:rolleyes:

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Your kidding right?
Thats not even a bad joke!

It seems to me that there are several unanswered questions here.
1. Has the vehicle in question EVER had any body work or after-market work performed in the area where the damage is?
2. Exactly where is the line damaged? If it's a line that runs from the front all the way to the rear, it may be partially inaccessible but that doesn't mean the damage was in this area.( BTW, don't expect any MB dealer to simply replace the damaged section of line using compression or flared fittings. It's a liability issue. )
3. Was it the rubber hose OR the steel line that caused the problem?

In sixteen years I've NEVER seen an MB brake line fail for no reason. My guess is that there's more to the story. From what I've read in this thread so far, there isn't enough information to draw any conclusions. So far it's all pure speculation. Some pictures would be great. If the line in question does in fact run the length of the vehicle, it could be quite a bit of work to replace it. I don't know how roncallo came up with his labor estimate. Before anybody starts trashing the dealer or MB maybe we should get more information.

It appears that all the facts are not being disclosed, The master cylinder is split between front and back so if the front circuit develops a leak the rear brakes still work, and vica versa. $1300 to replace a brake line is a little far fetched. at $100 an hour plus parts they could replace all the brake lines, I would like to hear MBs side of the story, you can still downshift and use the emergency brake!
If they are willing to give you the parts. They must feel very strongly in their case. If you have always had it serviced there why would you take it to another (your) shop?
I think this was this your post in December? what did they find

Brake Light Sensor

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I have a 01 ML 55 . If the break pad sensor light comes on, is it for the front or rear break pads. ( Order my manual, take 3-6 weeks)
Tks
S
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ML55 AMG 2001
ML 320 1998

Didn't you used to be my Drill Sgt Major ?

BTW....'Breaks' is spelled....BRAKES. :rolleyes:




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Ok, you got me on the "Brakes" yesterday wasn’t a good day.

First off, i would like to thank everyone for his or her feedback. It gave me the ammo i needed to put up a good case against them

Here's what happened, They informed me the steel "BRAKE" line (lol), had been " rubbing against a steel grommet that was attached to a power steering line" that was buried within the chassis i have no idea what this means but this is exactly, verbatim what they said. I asked for the damaged brake line and I have it the trunk. There is indeed a slight tear in the steel line on one corner. They gave me a 10% discount and ate the towing fee, $100. I paid $1100 plus the rental fee's $265. The service manger understood my argument but said he had he's hands tied and couldn’t to any better. They washed my car and I was off.
If anyone wants a copy of faxed copy of the bill PM me

Answers for some of the questions:
1. Has the vehicle in question EVER had any body work or after-market work performed in the area where the damage is? The front right fender was scratched and painted. Very minor.

2. Exactly where is the line damaged? If it's a line that runs from the front all the way to the rear, it may be partially inaccessible but that doesn't mean the damage was in this area. (BTW, don't expect any MB dealer to simply replace the damaged section of line using compression or flared fittings. It's a liability issue. ).
The line was buried in the chassis (SP); it was a steel pre-formed line with fittings on each end. They claim 13 hours of labor

Was the car always serviced at MB? Yes, they checked the history and verified. No one but a MB tech has serviced this car
-You can still downshift and use the emergency brake!
Yes you can, and that’s what I did to avoid the NYC sanation truck that was in my lane slowing down. I drove around him on a one way lane, thank god it was a straightaway and no one was in the other lane. The EM Brakes saved my A**!

If anyone wants to take a look at the bill PM me, i can Fax it over.

And thank you again, you all helped a great deal!

I've got a few ML's in the shop now, so I took a look underneath and here's what I found. The steel lines coming out of the hydraulic (located beneath the washer bottle) unit are routed down to the left side frame rail. They are quite close (approx.10mm) to the P/S hoses but if everything is installed correctly nothing rubs. If the line in question is for one of the rear wheel brakes, they run along the frame rail between the body mounts and body shell. In this area they're quite well protected. The line for the L/R simply connects to the rubber hose, while the line for the R/R connects to a union fitting located at the frame rail in the L/R wheel well. From the union fitting it simply crosses over to the R/R. Since the line is pre-formed it could be quite a job to replace. Several hours at a minimum. It would be a difficult driveway job even for the most determined DIYer. The big question as far as I'm concerned is how did the line come in contact with anything? Believe me, they don't just pop out of their brackets. I'm only guesing, but someone must have inadvertantly knocked it loose during a previous repair job. This may have taken place some time ago though. I'm sure it would take a while to rub through. It might be worthwhile to study the service history thoroughly. Try to find out if any previous work was done in that area.

ILUV ML - This peice of info might come in handy.

App 2 weeks ago i had the power steering pump replaced for the 2nd time in 8 weeks, by another dealer in Bayside queens. Along with the power steering pump they also had to change parts to the rach and pinion, they said they actually had to remove part of the suspension etc and replace hoses and such related to the rach--. I spoke to them and they said it had nothing to do with this. Yesterday at Manhatten Benz they said it may have. Knowing what you know should i call the dealership in queens and send the a fax of the repair bill.

If you want to look at it let me know

Im looking at the bill and here is what they fixed

part 163-420-16-26 $48.50
part 163-420-15-26 "" ""

DAMAGED BREAKE LINES FOR PRIMARY AND SECONDARY R&R FUSE BOX ASS. AND HOUSEING R&R ABS UNIT REPLACED LINES BLEED ALL OK 8.0

let me know if you need more info from the bill

Please tell me that wasnt Helms brothers that did that repair. They have an incompetent service department :mad:. I only go there to buy parts. Its well known around here that if you can make it to the Manhattan mercedes you'd be better off.

Good luck getting them to listen.

what I would do.

copy the repair orders you have and put them in chronological order.

write a cover letter explaining the circumstances. add a copy of this thread on this forum particularly ILUVMILS 3/3/05 post.

Make multiple copies of the whole sha-bang.

I would be sure to give one copy to the REGIONAL REP who visits the Manhattan dealership. I think the Manhattan dealership is probably very good, and the regional rep will probably get favorable feedback from them toward you.

Ethan - You read my mind, already in the process. And yes Helms did the work!

Let me tell you, i was lucky! It could have been my wife in the car in the tunnel. But it was me, i could care less for the $1300! But it felt like a slap in the face after nearly hurting myslef and someone else cause of someones sloppy work.

Mercedes obviously has some problems. Yesterday I went to our local MB dealer to get some rear axel fluid for my 560 SL. While I was in the parts department I asked my wife to check out a new C230. When I got back and she saw that I paid $60.00 for 2 lires of gear oil she said she will never buy a MB.

I have never even worked on an ML series Benz, but I have changed at least a dozen or so steel breake lines in my own and for various customers cars. The only ones that took me over an hour are those done on my back in my drive way without pre-formed lines. About 3 months ago I did exacly this job on my F-150. I replaced the line going from the rear axel to the mid section of the vehical. About 6 ft of line. This required removal of the line, custom bending a line to match the old line, flairing the ends, reinstalling and bleading. Now this is an easy truck to replace the line on and it took less than 2 hours on my back. But in 8 hours I could have also removed and replaced the engine. if that were required. I find 8 hours hard to belive in a professional automotive service facility for any car.

John Roncallo

I just sent a letter to the Queens dealership, Lets see what happens.

Hi John, I don't mean to start any trouble but believe me when I tell you that replacing the steel line(s) on an ML is no quickie. I took great interest in this thread since it involved a serious safety issue, so I made sure to look VERY closely at a number of ML's before I posted. Thanks for listening.

The Queens dealership just called. They state that none of the repair work to the Powersteering pump and hosed, and rach and pinion and assoc hoese (sp?) could have caused the rupture of the steel brake line.

Got to go up the ladder! Keep you posted

Hmmm. Very interesting. Filed a claim with MB USA at 1:30pm. I recieved a call from MB-NYC at 5:00pm, they would like the ruptured line back so the MB rep can inspect them so i can get an answer to the problem, and hopefully my money back. I must say they did react very quickly! And i will keep everyone posted as to the results!

If you are a Mercedes Benz service professional than I will take you word for It. But personally I would like to see what the labor time guide says. Unfortunatly I do not have access to ML's or a labor time guide. However I was a MB technician 16 years ago and I find 8 hour a bit much to swallow. In this industry I have also seen my share over charges, poor workmanship and outright incompetance. But yes I am speaking without evidence for the moment. And I am sorry if that upest you.

John Roncallo

NYC - MB made a very big deal about the amount of work it took to replace the steel line. An MB-USA rep will be inspecting the job preformed, and the brake line soon, so they would be very dum to skew the labor hours. But ya never know

Not to get off topic but what the heck is wrong with their power steering pumps? I know things happen, but a P/S pump should last more than 4 years even with NO maintenance. Also there is no reason for it to run dry since the rubber hoses and seals should be good for a long time.

Push against the Mercedes District Service Manager! Keep being firm and tell them you will take action against Mercedes and their authorized dealerships.

Tell them that you bought the vehicle in good faith, that it was advertised as a safe and a thoroughly tested vehicle. You want an immediate reimbursement for all costs incurred and that you are again, prepared to escalate through Mercedes in Stuttgart if necessary.

Push, they will compensate you. They cannot afford to have customers talking about brake lines failing. Thank heavens nothing serious happened. If it did, would you then sue? Yes! They are lucky nothing more serious occurred.

Haasman

Thanks Hass! I intially pushed very hard with the help of the feedback from this thread! Im at the point where they ( MB-USA) are inspecting the brake line. I dont want to be too pushy now. Im going to wait a week for a response from MB-NY. If all goes well, i belive i should have the repair, towing and rental fee's reimburesed to me ( $1500 plus ). And yes despite all this MB and I are very lucky because if somthing did happen, it would be on!

I will keep everyone posted and make all documents available upon request. I wouldnt typically do this, but brake line failure is not somthing i would wish on anyone!

If the cause was the power steering pump having you lose brake, you should make a complaint.

^ Bump

I don't know about you, but was sending the brake line to them a good idea.?..You just gotta know that line is gonna go 'missing' !

Seems that 'things' go missing a lot nowadays when it is evidence of
failure or fault of some kind...kinda like the Travel Office memo's and other pertinent stuff.... or am I just pessimistic, thinking 'conspiracy' ?.

dk, I think you are being a little pessimistic to be honest. I have heard though that MBUSA is pretty quick to respond to such things.

Thanks
David