Well as you all know my dad's problems witht he dealer and his SL600. Now they are telling him that he neews a new tranny at $1700 for the tranny (reconditioned) then install as well.

They say the front pump in it has failed, and cannot be repaired.

Now here is the thing, they just changed the fluid and filter a few weeks ago and it was fine. and now the tranny is gone?

I suspect that they have done something wrong, like put in the worng fluid, let something into the engine lke metal shavings or something, or didn't put in enough tranny fluid. or something like that.

They may not be at fault here, but it seems very strange that this failure happens after he has the tranny fluid and filter changed, which took them 5 weeks to do in the first place.

I hate making assumptions, but I think the dealership is trying to rip him off, or they may have done something to his car in that 5 weeks. I'm not saying they did, but I feel like they did.

They also say it might need a new torque converter. at $3000 plus.

What the hell is going on here?

I'm calling MBUSA tomorrow to lodge a huge complaint.

The car has only 55k miles on it, and has not been driven much by my dad at all. he got the car a year an a half ago with 48k on the car, and has had it serviced meticulously...

What can cause the front trans pump to go out.

They just changed the fluid and filter 3 weeks ago.

What could cause this?

My dad does not drive the car hard at all, and has drivent it maybe 1200 miles since he got it back from the 5 week long 60k service they did, which he got the car back 3 weeks ago.

Please Advise, I'm ready to tear somone at the dealership a new one..

Also before you ask about warranty I have no idea, as far as I know the car does not have a starmark warranty as he bought it from a used car dealer that deals with mb's and other luxury cars.

Are there any service bulletins regarding his tranny having problems etc or is he looking at spending $4000 or more on a the repair?

Benzmac, Aaron, Steve, MB doc, Alain, And the rest of you guys, what do you think?

As you can see I'm pretty worked up by this, my father called me from a business trip to Mexico from his cell, to ask me to ask you guys what you think and what he should do and all.

Alon

[Edited by Ashman on 02-15-2001 at 10:29 PM]

Go Ashman!!! Regulate. I really doubt the trans is bad at so few miles, as I'm sure you feel the same. I bet you the dealership is SCREWING with you big time. Did you dad notice any symptoms with the trans failing, or did the dealership just say that it was bad and need to be replaced? Regardless, I would definitaly call MBUSA and regulate!! Good luck with it all, please keep us posted on what happens.

He come home two nights ago, (Tuesday night)

Parked the car.

Came out the next morning to find every last drop of tranny fluid sitting on the driveway.

Says the tranny was shifting smooth and everything that night, and was fine when he got home that night.

But the next morning it was dry.

I checked the driveway, and there are no drips showing it was leaking when he parked it. The fluid starts from where his car was parked and flows out from there. the driveway was sloped a bit forward in that area so it ran to the end of the driveway, about 20 feet of fluid running including a big puddle under the car. Behind the car, no fluid or drips or anything.

He did not drive it even with the tranny fluid out, he had it towed immediately.

Alon

When then what the hell?? Wouldn't the dealership just find the LEAK (no ****!) and solve the problem!??!!?!? I don't get it??? Are they stupid!!?? Or do they think You are stupid?!?!

no idea I just need to know whats up. they claim the front pump in the trans failed. They say they can't get to it so tranny needs to be opened and basically rebuilt, so they suggested a new (remanufactured) tranny, and said they wont know if the torque converter is shot until they pull the tranny, and if the torque converter is shot its an extra 3k plus.

So basically, he has no problem paying for the replacing of the tranny, but the extra expense of the torque converter makes it hard for him to agree with the diagnosis.

It makes no sense to me. In fact when he pulled in the driveway and stopped, put the car in park, the car was sounding normal and quite, then after like 30 seconds I suddenly heard what appeared to me as a low powersteering fluid level sound, the whining in the steering, which could have been the steering, or maybe it was his AC clicking on as he always has it running on Auto.

he was on the phone at the time, and had just pulled in and stopped the car and had it running while he was still on the phone.

i told him get the car looked at, it sounds like the power steering pump is making noise (he has had probs with power steering pump before...).

He got out, listened then shut off car and that was the end of it.

So now I need to know what I should do here, and what you guys think the problem is, what the symptoms sound like, what the costs sound like, and how something like this can fail, and ultimately is the dealership full of it.

Thanks,

Alon

hoping I don't have to raise some hell with MBUSA/the dealership...

Thats rough...
 

Alon,

It really sounds like they've done you a disservice. 5 weeks for transmission filter and fluid change? It should take at most a few hours (takes way less than that for our 300E's). In 5 weeks alot can happen. I would call MBUSA, I have found their customer service to be pleasant and helpful. As far as problems, I've heard that the 600's have a few, but this sounds like a case of negligence on the dealer's part. Good Luck and Stick it to 'em

Jason M.

Jason thanks for the reply. in the 5 weeks he had some other stuff fixed as well, so that was part of it.

If I let my imagination go, I see them having spent some time during the 5 weeks swapping his tranny for someone elses' bad tranny, but of course I do not think they are that shady or do those kinds of things because it has to take some seriously screwed up morals to do that kind of thing. but It has crossed my mind....

Alon

Alon,

If you suspect a shady swap, there should be matching VIN numbers on the Transmission and the Engine. If there arent.... well you get the general idea.

Jason <

hehe well I said it had crossed my mind, and yes vin numbers would be a sign of that and a way to detect it. I'm more concerned with the diagnosis of the problem.

I just don't like the fact that 2-3 weeks ago the trans was serviced and now it needs to be replaced according to them.

Alon

Worked up Ashman
 

Alon, I feel for your Father.
In my carrer with General Motors I was assigned to the Hydramatic Division for a few years.
I saw transmissions fail in minutes while being dyno tested. Then in the field in thousands of miles.
No one can predict how long a front pump will last, your Fathers may be one of the few in many thousands of transmissions.
I know you are trying to help your Father, but I truely believe a dealer would not do somethig so obvious as tampering to destroying a transmission. It just isn't worth it at the reputation of his business.
The transmission may have been on it's last breath when your Father bought his Benz. You said he didn't put many miles on it. That in it's self is what you should never do when you have purchased as used car. Get it out and shake it down.
There are transmissions as good as what is quoted to you and at considerable less money.
Adsit Co. Inc. 1-800-521-7656 has a sale on this month. Also http://www.adsitco.com Try them out, might help.
The best thing you can do to help your Father is to keep your Cool, don't put hard feeling into his head and the two of you get down on a very worthy Benz.
Happy Trails Beep Beep from Houston!!!
Donald, El Cheapo

Donald the only reason I think they have done something wrong is that the last time his car was there 3 weeks ago, they had it for 5 weeks to do a routine service and fix a few small things he wanted fixed.

He has no problems with replacing the tranny if need be and its cost. he does however have a problem with it when they tell him it might be an extra 3k or so for the torque converter.

They had the tranny pan off just 3-4 weeks ago and changed the fluid and filter. Now the trans is broken.

It just makes you think that maybe something was done wrong in the fluid and filter change.

Wrong fluid, wrong filter, not cleaning the gasket sealant all the way or leaving some in the pan to get mixed in. Anything of the sort like that might be a cause for the problem.

I am more concerned with their diagnosis than the repair itself.

It sounds very strange to em and to my father that a trans with such low mileage after just being serviced fails.

Somehow it just doesn't add up to a normal breakdown as there was a fluid change within weeks of the failure.

Hopefully someone can shed some light on whether this is a common failure, something very rare, and or something caused by negligence on the dealers part.

For instance maybe they did something that caused the premature failure on accident without knowing it.

My father is not in the best of health, so I have to help him out by dealing with certain stressful situations that could put him over the edge if he were to have to deal with it.

He is just concerned that something is not right with their diagnosis.

I think I will still talk to MBUSA about the matter to see if they can shed some light on why, how, and what could have caused this problem.

They may even be helpful enough to get the dealership down on the price or they might find flaws in the dealerships practices. You never know with these things, but I'd rather not hide in the corner, I want to speak out about it and let them know about it. It might be a fatal trans design flaw that caused it that is only showing after a few years. Maybe there is something in the pump that will fail after a few years. who knows.

These are the things I need to know, especially the how, when, what etc etc questions.

Alon

ASHMAN
 

Strange things happen.
The frame of mind you are in and trying to be rational at the same time you are at wits end, doesn't help the matters any.
You need to drop back 10 yards before you punt.
Gather as much information as possible and corrilate your data, then approach the dealer for calm discussion.
Good luck, may you prevaile.
Happy Trails Bee Beep from Houston!!!
Donald, El Cheapo

Thats strange that they tell you that the whole transmisson has to be replaced for a front pump part number 1402700097 that is availble on fast lane and if its just the seal its 0109974947 and the oring in back of it is a 0169971448 all availble on fast lane. Its just a 722.362 tranmission.

MBUSA, if spoken to politly should help you out if not call a lawyer, I have found that paying $150 bucks for a letter can do amazing things. Also your Dad should call MB personally, no offense but they usually will be more receptive to the owner of the item. I used to cover these things for my Dad when I was in school and had decent success but in these cases, most generally they would deal with me, but a follow up by him would take care of the issue. You definitly should "step back 10 yards" and get your ducks in a row do a little leg work contacting previous owners, pulling a car fax ect. the dealer that sold the car should definitly be put under the microscope. But first because of your other problems MBUSA will help if you talk to them calmly. Remember to have all the Repair invoices and paper work with you when you call that is just good ammo Good luck

Don’t know if this has been mentioned but in the event it hasn’t, another form of research is to get the vehicle’s service history. Just about any MB dealer should be able to get this for you if you provide them with the VIN. In addition, you might send email to Benzmac, MBStars, Steve and perhaps other techs here to get an informal (and I emphasize informal) opinion. Lastly, take the car to another dealer for a second opinion.

Hope this helps….

…Tracy

Yes I plan on having the car taken tomy independent MB Specialist who years ago when we had an 87 560SEL, which the same dealership said it needed a new tranny, he fixed it for $300 it was a stupid oil cooler line and the dealership tried to tell us that car needed a new tranny at 75k miles.

My independent left that dealership because of their practices and their can't be fixed diagnosis.

They say the front pump went bad. Fromt he looks of things, it seems like the main seal is bad, and thats where the leak is.

My thinking is that if the pump is available on partsshop fastlane for around $300-$400 then labor and all should not be extremely expensive, maybe like $1000 give or take a bit.

I really would like to get some opinions on how the pump can fail, how likely it is that it failed due to dealership mistake, how likely it is that they used the wrong type of trans fluid or did not clean things properly before putting the trans pan back on when they changed the filter.

And how something like this can happen 3 weeks after a trans service.

All of this has made me seriously think about how something like this can happen.

My dad will get the trans replaced if needed, and all, but he just does not want to be screwed over.

I would send E-mails to benzmac, steve, MB Doc, AAron, MB Stars, etc, but I feel that it would be better for me to let them se this post here and answer it if they want. I don't want to bug them with myproblems in e-mail. The information they could post in here might be helpful to someone else.

So guys, any ideas? Should I just have it taken to my independent?

My dad will callme soon to ask me what I have found out from here, so I am hoping to have some info on costs compared to the dealership, and if the diagnosius by them sems to be totally wrong or completely correct.

thanks for the info so far guys, I'm just concerned that my dad is getting screwed here by the dealer.

I do know my other posts sounded like I was ready to tear someone a new one, and really if they diagnosis by the dealer turns out to be BS, then they will be hearing from my dad after he talks to mbusa. But if they are right on, then thats all I need to hear to calm me down about it.

It just puzzles me that 3 weeks after the car was in for a trans service the trans gets screwed up. The coincidence alone in that makes it hard for me to not try to point blame, but things like this can happen at any time.

I am concerned with their diagnosis being a proper diagnosis. If their diagnosis is wrong, and my dad spends $5000 or so on a new trans and torque converter, then it will have beena complete waste, and I will consider it as bloody highway robbery by the dealer.

I have been telling him for the last year to take it to the independent only, he just assumed the dealer was better because they may have more tools etc, but I seem to think that they are trying to replace something that can be fixed for less.

I guess it all comes down to the old argument of dealers vs independents. The dealers tend to replace things, independents tend to fix things.

i just don't want to see my dad get screwed out of his hard earned money, he spent the last 40 years of his life, working 20 hours a day on average, nearly 7 days a week to get what he has today, and I hate to see him have to work more now that he is not in the best of health to be able to work like that now. He is a borderline diabetic with heart problems, and had an angioplasty done 2 years ago instead of having a bypass done, and so he cannot over exzert(sp?) himself much because if he does he will have chest pains.

So essentially I help him out as much as I can to try to reduce the stress on him when having to deal with stresful situations.

He does not really go into his office anymore at all and only travels now for his clients, but does nto deal with all the day to day operations of his business anymore because when he comes to the office and starts getting hammered with this and that being brought to his attention he starts to feel chest pain and has to leave and relax.

Well enough about my dad's problems. But you guys do understand what I am looking for.

Is the dealerships diagnosis correct?
Does the front pump fail often?
Does it really need a torque converter if the pump failed?
Are the prices ok or are they ridiculously priced?

Thanks for the help and I do apologize for writing such long messages.

Alon

" I guess it all comes down to the old argument of dealers vs independents. The dealers tend to replace things, independents tend to fix things."

One of the best things you can know in life is what to expect from the people with whom you work. Knowing their nature can give you a far better idea of what to expect.

IMO, it really depends on whether fixing the “obvious” problem will be the end of it, or if it represents the first failure in the system. Since you don't know, a second opinion is the key.

Best of luck!

...Tracy

My gut reaction is that an SL600 represents major dollars to these folks. They probably figure, "what's $5,000 to a guy who (as far as they are concerned) paid $150,000 plus for his car?"

My experiences with my car since I bought it a few years ago have made me quite cynical and suspicious of some mechanics, especially those at dealers, who are too quick to fix what is not broken, or feel that they can hoodwink me because I do not have vast knowledge of my car. (My over-abundance of common sense, however, compensates for any deficit.)

My opinion is that they are trying to screw you. Honestly, how does a torque converter, which is about as complex as an electric fan, fail? And I am sure that the tranny in your dad's SL600 is a lot tougher that the one in my 260E, yet I drove for several weeks with the fluid half-empty without any failures. (At least none that I know of!!)

I agree with the person who suggested some legal counsel. Perhaps a phone call from a lawyer or some other authority will get some results. I had a steering problem when I bought my car and the dealer blew me off, saying it was not their fault and that I would have to pay for any repairs. A few days later a big, shiny Virginia State Police cruiser arrived at the dealership with the trooper responsible for safety inspections in that region inside. Suddenly, the dealer became very motivated to fix the problem (and was cited for selling me a broken car). So don't underestimate how effective such passive-aggressive tactics can be.

Any work the mechanics have done on your dad's tranny carries an implied warranty, whether you received anything in writing or not. The evidence suggests that they goofed something up. Do a bit of research on the condition of the car prior to their service, so that you can pinpoint what, if anything, they may have done wrong. Get some facts on the lifespan and durability of that particular transmission. Then get them to describe in detail, and with full documentation, everything they did to the car over those five weeks. Then compare notes and take any appropriate action.

Good luck.

Eric Silver
1989 260E

Torque Converters
 

Also, regarding your question about torque converters:

I am hardly an expert, but know enough to say that a torque converter is simply a fluid coupling between the engine and the transmission, and not part of the transmission itself. It is essentially a turbine physically connected to the engine that spins a fluid (ATF) that turns a second turbine that is physically connected to the transmission.

Although there is some merit to what the dealer is saying about the transmission pump failure being linked to possible torque converter failure, as the tranny (piston) pump's function and the torque converter's (centrifugal) pump functions are basically interdependent, it nonetheless seems very far-fetched.

Eric

This is crazy
 

Unless the trans was broken prior to your buying the car, there is no way it should fail so soon. I know the trans in my 500 is so sensitive to fluid level that MB changed the dipstick and the new transmissions are sealed. There is no dipstick anymore. (Anyone who knows, please confirm). I believe MBUSA will help you out. For the flagship to lose a tranny at such low mileage would be shameful to any builder.

Alon, do not be too timid about taking charge for your fathers affairs. I once got a friends entire engine rebuilt (under extended warranty) by claiming I was him and dealing with the dealership. My friend doesn't know the difference between a spark plug and a drain plug. He didn't know what I meant when I said his car was blowing oil, so he asked for my help. Another time I got Cadillac to provide all the motor parts free (he paid labor). I never get so lucky with my own problems.

Steve
'85 500SL (Euro)

Sorry to read about the situation. I totally relate to your predicament- when I encounter mechanical, cosmetic,& aesthetic issues with my '94 E320 Starmark Coupe, it always incites a strong emotional reaction- never fails.

To best address these types of issues I first acknowledge my emotional state and then meticulously focus on a logical process/plan to gather complete information on the failure, causes, and solution-resources/options (as appropriate). Thereafter, I allow myself to make an educated decision on how to proceed to achieve the outcome desired.

I've learned that often my suspicions are just that, they do not foster a friendly trusting relationship with those that can help resolve my problem, and left running wild- impair my ability to make the best results happen. I am cautious though not to be too trusting and be placed in a situation to be taken advantage of.

Good luck with your information gathering, problem solving, and in making the best situation out of this unfortunate circumstance.

Keep in mind that MBZ's in general are very robust- however there's no real way to know for certain the effects of a previous owner (caveat emptor) and the randomness of chance circumstances.

-fad

Ashman,

forgive me for stating the obvious, but,with 55K on your car, any car, there is grounds for claiming on fair wear and tear. Certainly on a Benz, I would expect to drive throught 200K on any transmission without any sort of drama what so ever !. Seems to me to you have just cause to demand a fix, free of charge !!!! Good Luck !

Alon
 

Stop trying to rationalize the pre mature failure of a mechanical item.
There is no way to seperate the long lived part from the one that failed pre maturely.
I believe you should take all of the logical data along with a calm and cool head and go after the problem.
All of the proper methods are in these posts; pick and choose.
Happy Trails Beep Beep from Houston!!!
Donald, El Cheapo

My dad spoke to the service advisor and was told this..

The main seal is leaking. The trans is very harsh when going into gear (i.e) reverse, and he recommends replacement because:

a: They have to drop the tranny to do the seal
b: since engaging gear is firm or harsh as the guy put it, the trans should be replaced.

So essentially they have changed their story from the main pump to the main seal and have changed from needing torque converter to replacing the trans because reverse engages firmly or harsh as the guy put it.

My dad has a meeting with the dealership on monday. I had him threaten to call MBUSA, and they guy immidiately changed the story on what needed to be fixed.

Sounds like MBUSA should be called regardless because if he had given them to go ahead to fix it today, he would have ended up with a $4000-$5000 bill for a new trans and torque converter.

So now the service advisors list of whats wrong and needs to be replaced has changed somewhat.

So on monday my dad will be deciding on what to do.

He values the information I will be providing him from here, so if any of you techs got some info for me that you can get to me by then, I would appreciate it.

Arming my dad with more knowledge about it before he caves and opens up the wallet, will assist in him getting the problem dealth with.

Also I think if he does need to do the trans, he should get it done at the dealer so it has a warranty.

Either way, he might just decide on the trans because of the firm gear selection, but when I moved the car on tuesday night for him, it did not seem harsh at all.

So essentially I think they are making more excuses, but I think I will pop in on monday and have the service advisor show me another sl600 and how it engages gear for comparison. If it really is very harsh then maybe he should change it.

I just don't think that a main seal requires a trans rebuild or a replacement.

But since they said the labor would be the same, he might as well just do it.

Does that seem strange to you?

Thanks for all the replies so far, the opinions have really helped me open my eyes, and have helped me stay calmer than I was.

I'm the kind of person that will overreact at first then as I do more thinking or research, I tend to calm down and see things differently.

Alon

I had a similar problem with a frame noise in my piece of crap Yukon. The first call to GMC yielded nothing, the second call I finally received results. MBUSA will probably advise you to take it to another MB dealer and will deal with the service manager directly, and he will not back up his buddies across town if he thinks something is fishy. As for a tranny problem at 55k on anything even a GMC is ridicules and needs to be addressed. I really hope you get this straightened out in your favor, we all know what it feels like to be screwed. If something really does stink call you state Attorney General, in most states they do act. I wish you the best of luck my friend.

I have another question.

If they put too much fluid in the tranny when changing the fioter and fluid, could that cause a main seal and pump to fail?

If so, then I think my dad has the answer to what caused it.

Right now he is looking to find out what caused the problem, because if it was overfill of fluid or something that the dealer could have done by mistake then he will know how to handle it.

He is an Attorney, so he knows how to deal with people and get things done to his satisfaction.

So Benzmac, Steve, MB Doc, MB Stars, Aaron, anyone else, can you please shed some light on this?

I know you guys are busy, but my dad is planning on having it dealt with on monday so time is limited to get some answers from you great people here.

When we go see the independent which is where he might take it I'm going to bring the laptop, and show them the site here, I'm sure my independent will love this place and all.

Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this guys,

Alon

Sorry for the impatience, but I am still looking for some more info on the questions I have...

Thanks in advance,

Alon

Don’t expect traitorous responses.
 

I would expect that you won’t get any responses from the professional mechanics on a question like this because, as a professional, they would not second guess the diagnosis of another without being able to personally diagnose the problem themselves. I imagine they wouldn’t guess with the limited information you have, especially if you are asking them to castigate the dealer service technician.

If you ask a doctor or lawyer for an opinion about a colleague’s decision, you won’t get one unless there is compensation or another reason to do so. The ethics are questionable. For example, how could a doctor evaluate a condition without examining the patient? Is it similar for the car? I think so. The lack of responses only shows the good judgment of the professional mechanics that moderate this site.

Please understand that I am not defending the dealer. Read my earlier post. But I believe you will not see responses from the pros.

Steve
’85 500SL (Euro)

Steve,

Thank yo for the response. I understand exactly what you meant.

The car is now at my independent mechanic who is going to fix the problem and it wont cost anywhere close to what the dealer wanted.

My independent looked at the car, agreed that it was the main sel and front pump. and he will be fixing it.

He checked the rest of the tranny and he said it was fine other than the main seal and pump.

Hopefully my dad will take my advice next time and just take it to the independent.

The same dealer that told him he needed a new tranny, is the same dealer that told us we needed a new tranny in our old 87 560SEL which had 75k on it, when all it had was a small leak that was easily fixed by our independent. And the same independent who fixed that car is now fixing my dad's car.

So anyway, thank you everyone for the responses. The opinions in here helped me convince my dad to take it to the independent and to stop messing around with the dealership.

Thank you all, you have helped me convince my sometimes thick headed father that the dealership is not necessarily better than a good independent shop.

Alon

Keep up the good work Everyone!

WAIT A MINUTE!

If the service was just done on the tranny, I would think that they should have SOME sort of obligation to warranty something....

They might be trying to cover up a problem. I have seen this many times on the dealer level. Just be careful and cover yourself...Not all things are done as deception, but this looks like it is in that category.

I would call MBNA first, then take it for a second opinion. It sounds like the fluid came out all at once, this happened to me once when a filter collapsed and sucked flat. It was a part failure, therefore I had to eat the repair. Not all work is profitable.

Be sure you know the CAUSE of the problem, not the result. That is how you will win.