MOS2 ANTI-FRICTION MOTOR TREATMENT

Is sold in PartsShop. I heard that MB recommends NO additives? Though I heard that MOS2 is good for engines (according to DRIVE IT FOREVER), but MB doesn't recommend anything? So is this recommended for MB engines, despite the MB warnings??

Is that the Moly stuff? I only tried their fuel additive. Everyone says that Moly stuff works but, it made my Fuel Reserve sensor come on at a quarter of a tank. Don't know if it is worth putting it in for every 30,000 miles. Most additives are not recommended for the MBs, especially the oil additives. There should be no need.

MOS2 Anti-friction engine treatment,
Properties. Forms a friction and wear reducing "moly" film on all sliding surfaces of the engine. The engine runs smoother,quieter,cooler, more reliably. Provides an extra measure of protection under extreme operating conditions, e.g. extreme temperatures,engine overheating under high loads,loss of oil, etc. Miscible with all motor oils.

Benefits. Up to 50% less engine wear. Reduces oil and fuel consumption. Longer engine life. Safeguards against breakdowns and repairs. Smother, more pleasent engine operation.

I took this right out of the book. I have been to manny lubro molly seminars with Gary Boyd(1 800 223 1634) the rep of it here in the US. This guy swears by all of its products. The one thing that I like about the product is that it is all made in Germany.

I would never use it. A quality, clean engine oil is all that you need. Use Mobil 1, what better protection could you get for your car? Mercedes even voids warranties if they find any additives were added to the oil. Your is probably not under warranty, but goes to show a point about how strongly MB feels about this.

Mobil 1, Amsoil (at $8 a quart!) and other quality oils are formulated with all the additives and lubrication properties that are needed. Engineers spent a good deal of time formulating oil. Do you think they would have overlooked anything that would not make their oil a superior product. Don't mess with a good thing.

Time For Der Linqz...
 

Never say never. I "never" heard of this line of products before, but I found this website because my independent Mercedes shop told me that they used Lubro-Moly as an additive during the oil change included in an "E" service. Well, I had to know what the stuff was, and that search for information on the products led me here.

True, Mercedes does not officilly endorse or recommend the use of any additives, fuel or engine. But Mercedes dealers sell Redline products in their parts departments. So why don't they sell Lubro-Moly? Well, according to Jerry Boyd, the company's marketing strategy is focused on making their products available only through independent garages and the internet. They have no interest in selling it through auto parts stores, or Mercedes dealers. If they did sell to Mercedes, I think that the additive policy would change, but what we're dealing with is politics, not just engineering.

When your Mercedes warranty is no longer an issue, there is no reason not to try this excellent line of quality German products. For a more complete picture of the company and it's products, go to: http://www.liqui-moly.de. The parent compant in Germany is known as Liqui-Moly in Europe, and Lubro-Moly here in the U.S..

In that case, I'll steer clear! But why does MercedesShop advertise this?

Sorry, John...
 

None of the products produced by Redline or by Lubro-Moly contain PTFE's. I agree with you on the subject of snake oil additives you see on TV. Slick 50, Motor-Up, and all of those others are crap.

The link you supply from GS Resources (a Suzuki motorcycle site), provides a reprint of an article from the August 1992 edition of Road Rider magazine that seems to be accurate, unbiased, and is also endorsed by me for informational purposes as well. But they don't mention Redline or Lubro-Moly, and they also don't seem to like synthetic oil but they never mention Mobil 1, or Redline by name.

Why not check out Liqui-Moly's and Redline's websites and see what you're knocking here. I know you're a rational guy who takes his car care seriously, but these products don't deserve to be compared to STP, Wynn's, Rislone, Slick 50, Motor Up, or any of the other doggy doo that you can buy at K-Mart, WalMart, or the corner auto parts store. Although you can get some Redline products at PepBoys.;)

And, David, I can't speak for MercedesShop. Perhaps Sir Bill, Ye Olde Webmaster, will grace us with his comments?

I sell pallets of lubro molly additives to Mercedes Dealers all over the world. Go figure!!!

I used "Motor Up" a few months ago and about 2 oil changes ago - can't say I noticed much perhaps it was pyschological that I thought the engine was smoother?

I then switched to Mobil 1 from BP3000 Semi-Synt, but my friendly Mech recommended that I stay with Semi-Synt. for he fears that Mobil 1 may be too "diluted" for my beautiful 10 year old baby.

Molybdenum Disulfide
 

Moly Disulfide (MoS2) is a naturally occurring mineral (molybdenite) that is extremely soft...can be as soft as talc. High performance engine builders have used lubricants made from MoS2 for years, because it can be a very high pressure lubricant. But it normally is a very specialized use...it is spread liberally on the cam shaft lobes during final assembly. The cam lobes can easily be damaged in the first few SECONDS of running if not properly lubed. We always used MoS2 on the high performance engines we put together, BUT after running for about twenty minutes, we would shut it down, drain the crank case, add fresh oil (without MoS2) and a new filter. then run another couple hundred miles and change the oil again (Mobil 1 of course). The type of MoS2 we used was very thick and it was removed after the short initial run in because it was thought to eventually plug the filter. Whether this poses a risk in the current formulations (Luby-Moly, et al), I do not know. Personally, I wouldn't use it or other oil additives in a production engine, but would rely on the superior qualities of a fully synthetic oil like Mobil 1.

The products we sell are NOT Slick 50 "miracle" products. As stated above, Slick 50 and other PTFE products are SNAKE OIL! Redline and Lubro Moly do not market that type of product at all.

Water Wetter, Ventil Sauber, Diesel Purge, etc are really professional products. They do work and many shops use these products or something similar by BG Products. Most shops use some kind of chemical additive to clean injectors, valves, etc. Lots of people use Water Wetter and it does work well.

BUT, for me personally...and I am NOT a mechanic (my background is electrical engineering so what do I know about materials!) I do NOT believe in ever adding ANYTHING to motor oil. I don't care what it is or who made it. I am always concerned about upsetting the carefully designed balance of lubrication and cleaning that is designed into motor oil. My feeling is that additives added to the fuel for cleaning purposes simply do their job and pass through. Anything added to the oil is going to be in there for several thousand miles.

MOS2
 

After reading all of the negative remarks based upon "I Believe, I think or I heard it in Number 3 stall; I would like to give my opinion(another I know).
I have a 1987 300E spark ignition W124030.
It has 171,300 miles and has never had the cam cover off.
It still runs smooth and strong.
For calender year 2000, it averaged 19.4 mpg.
His oil consumption is 1 qt per 1100- 1200 miles.
He has had "Liqui-moly" added every 20,000 miles after the initial break-in period.
MOS2 burnishes the moving parts surfaces and is soluable with the motor oil, not like some other teflon additives that settle out in the crankcase.
The cost of the additive is zelch compared to the protection it offers.
So go ahead and make your personnal comments, I'll continue using this "snake oil" additive and look forward to 200,000 miles without even valve stem seals.
If some M/B dealers use MOS2, it can't be all that bad, or are they just spinning thier wheels and ripping off thier customers?
Happy Trails Beep Beep from Houston!!!
Donald, El Cheapo
Edit:
P.S. I failed to mention I add it to the differential lube as well. I change the lube every year(12mon).

BUT, WHAT DO THE EXPERTS SAY?
 

Whether I think that something sucks or is great, if the research I do either supports or disproves my initial impression of any product, I'm going to give you the straight scoop on what I found out. This is what I found out so far.

First, the Moly that Steve (dakota) makes reference to not made from Moly, but is Moly in a suspension of a lithium base, and is commonly referred to as "assembly lube". I have a tube of Sta-Lube® Moly-Graph Assembly Lube that, as the name implies, also contains graphite. The product packaging says that it, "Prevents contact friction, galling, & wear during engine assembly, initial start-up, & break-in. USE ON: Crankshafts, camshafts, gears, bearings, valve stems, lifters, push rods, & all areas of rotational or sliding contact". The manufacturer states that there is no reason to change your oil after a short period to avoid clogging anything (including the filter), as the lithium base and added Moly are both fully solvent within the crankcase oil. If anything, it should be left in the engine to allow the benefits derived from the initial application to continue. Their advice is to just change the oil at the recommended interval for the specific engine.

Now, just what do the experts say about MOS2? Here's some quotes from http://www.netside.com/~parsec/experts.htm

Commercial Carrier Journal Article - “What sort of benefits will moly give in engines? Basically the same as it does in other types of equipment, i.e. reduced friction and wear of moving parts along with added anti-rust and anti-oxidant protection. The results are lengthened engine life and oil life, small but significant increases in power and fuel economy and easier cold cranking.” “...the addition of 1% moly reduced valve train wear some 85% to 99% over the performance of the base oil to which it was added. ...moly improved an oil’s scuffing protection by 4% to 34% depending on the engine parts evaluated ...moly inhibits oil oxidation and sludge and varnish build-up and improves an engine’s cold cranking speed some 12%.”

University of Michigan, Dept. of Mechanical Engineering, Ann Arbor, Mich. - Research Report - “...found that the coefficient of friction on MOS2 decreased with increased load up to a pressure of 600,000 PSI at which pressure it was 0.032 and had the lowest coefficient of friction of any material ever tested.”

International Industrial Lubrication Exhibition, Royal Horticultural Society, Westminster, London, UK - Technical Presentation - “Moreover, MOS2, useful by itself, also functions as an additive. It brings its own abilities to the lubricant system with which it is joined. Thus, MOS2 is a material that can be used to improve conventional lubricants, and as a lubricant itself.”

Society of Automotive Engineers Tech. Bulletin # 750674 - This data shows that 1% MOS2 engine treatment contributed to a reduction in sludge, varnish and wear, as well as reduced oil viscosity due to oxidation and an improvment in cranking speed at -20° F. In addition, neither new nor artifically plugged filters removed measurable amounts of MOS2 from the oil. The presence of MOS2 in the engine oil did not appear to adversely affect the emission levels of hydrocarbons, CO, or NOx.”

Clemson University, Dept. of Mechanical Engineering, Clemson, SC in a review of existing technical and test data - “Moly has been well proven to be
a viable and effective additive to any lubricant in numerous applications and types of equipment. The addition of moly has been shown to improve fuel economy and more importantly, to increase the useful life of a mechanical device through the reduction of wear.”

Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Dept. of Mechanical Engineering, Cambridge, Mass - Statement based upon Existing Technical/Testing Data - “...the antiwear properties of the material (MOS2) are well known in the technical community...”

And for our members who are chemists, here's a website that outlines some of the major differences between "...long chain molecules such as PTFE, FEP, PFA, ETFE, etc. (and) Lamella structure materials such as molybdenum disulfide, tungsten disulfide and electric furnace graphite...".

I don't sell this stuff, and I haven't even tried it yet, but I want to know as much about it as I possibly can before I do use it. That's what we're all here for, to share information.:D

[Edited by longston on 02-23-2001 at 02:39 PM]

WOW Scott
 

Scott all I said is I use this slippery black stuff in my engine and it appears to be of some benefit considerring the miles and age of my engine.
I'm glad you got your soap box out for you sure have a positive message for this goobly goop.
Happy Trails beep beep from Houston!!
Donald, El Cheapo

Such academic wisdom.

I like the sharing of opinions in this forum. At the end of the day, I just do what I think is best and feel comfortable with.

Best wishes to all.

ymsin
 

Such wisdom has never been expressed on this forum before.
My sombrero off to you!!
Happy Trails Beep Beep from Houston!!!
Donald, El Cheapo

Moly is the only additive that has been used for over 60 years by everyone from the oil industry to the military. It is not a "snake oil". It is a proven antiwear additive.
I have used it in every engine, gearcase, and use moly grease on every machine for the last 35 years and I have never had a failure that was caused by using moly. Used as directed you will never damage your machine and you will add years/miles/hours to its life.

A well-defined Margarita for Donald ...
 

Cheers mate, as we gloat over the vast huge resources of information and sharing in this forum!

:)


ps. Heard the mardi gras was in Houston couple of weeks ago. Any MB parades too?

mread
 

Thanks for your comments on the Black Magic lubricant.
I too have used it on and in every application I can find for my Benz.
It's the best and only additive that performs as advertised.
Happy Trails Beep Beep from slippery Houston!!!
Donald, El Cheapo.

Moly is also a great additive to rifle bullets and barrels. The only problem is you have to hop up the charge due to loss of compression with the slick barrel. After your fire a couple Moly's your bore is coated with it and it is a great anti-corrosive :)

rsbiomedical
 

The picture of your Sailing Craft is beautiful.
Happy Trails beep Beep from Houston!!!
Donald, El Cheapo

mos2 caught in oil filter?
 

I have also done a lot of research on additives, and decided to try mos2 in my 190e 2.6. My real hope was that it would reduce the valve rattle I hear when I first start up in the morning, and that it would help my car run a little cooler on these hot Florida days. I also put water wetter in my radiator after flushing, with a 75% water, 25% antifreeze mixture. I have seen no improvement in my car whatsoever. It is exactly the same. Guys, save your money. Put a good grade oil in your car, and change it often. You might want to try a mature product like Mobil 1, but don't expect to notice any difference. Your long term engine wear should improve however. Keep your radiator flushed and cleaned every year or 2. Some say the mos2 gets captured by the oil filter, others say that they have "solved" this problem. Maybe, but it hasn't increased my gas mileage, made my valves stop rattling at startup, or decreased my coolant temperature (even with watter wetter). You decide, but I'm not going to spend any more of my hard earned money on this stuff. Wayne Reynolds

WayneReynolds
 

Before you make statements as to your oil filter removing the Moly additive, you might check the sieve size of your filter and the molecular size of the Moly.
Your remarks are profound, but you might want to investigate Moly at http://www.moly.com an see if you find data worthy of your curiouisity.
No additive will remove problems with defective lifters. Those that may help are the solvent type not the VI (viscosity-index improvers) types as Moly.
A mature motor oil?
What?
As for Mobil I, that subject has be around for years, it has been discused and rediscused.
It may help your engine run cooler if you used tne recommended coolant ratio as noted in your Engine Service Manual, NOT 75/25 especially in Florida, but 1:1 coolant to water.
Living on the Gulf Coast, I rairly have to be concerned about freezing temperatures, but I still drain flush and neutralize using M/B stuff, then refill with the red stuff.
It's so Cheapo, I just couldn't pass a bargin every spring as the manual recomends.
Check the color of your coolant.
Use the red colored stuff.
DO NOT use the green crud.
Drain and refill as you feel needed.
Your RedLine water wetter is a good choice to improve the adhesion of your coolant.
I hope we don't have to go through another new members wanting to bring motor oils to the party.
Happy Trails Beep Beep from Houston!!!
Donald, El Cheapo

[Edited by Donald L. Swinford on 03-03-2001 at 12:08 AM]

DON!
 

I DO agree, Wayne needs to understand that additives will not do repairs, and that he needs to run a 50/50 mix of antifreeze to "de-mineralized" water!

But you (and Wayne) need to visit the "Open Discussion Forum" for a much needed humor break! Come, and bask with us in this Hot Tub of discussion!;)

Specifically visit the "Hot Button" thread. But make sure there is someone available to call 911 for you! Or at least a clean change of under wear is available!:D

We're havin' a grand ole time!

[Edited by longston on 03-03-2001 at 12:15 AM]

Longston
 

Hey Scott, where is this round house, am I missing the chance to show mah interlect bowt all subjexs.
Ah cowdnt spaill enganear now I are won.
Happy Trails Beep from Houston!!!
Donald, El Smart A--, E; Cheapo

Guys,

Its like floss your teeth, you don't know of the negative effects of not doing it daily, until your teeth start falling out! :D:D

If its good enough for the Military and has been embraced by the Whole Mechanical Revolution, who is it not good for? :)

And Donald, that last reply just about sent me rolling into the next room! LOL

Donald, Me Boy-O...
 

You need only look as far as the initilal links past the "Shop Forums" link, then scroll (you remember scroll, like dead sea scrolls) down to the "Open Discussion Forum".

I have confidence in you, and I know yew kin dew eet!

Redline says 25% coolant
 

Guys,

First off, I didn't expect moly to fix my car. My short term rattle during start up was explained to me as dry hydraulic lifters, that have to be pumped back up when my car first starts up (after being off several hours), a common problem on older cars. I was told that moly, the miracle lubricant that it is, might keep the lifter surfaces coated and the seals lubricated to a point that it might help reduce this effect. It didn't. That's all. I am just passing on my experience. I also keep very tight tabs on my gas mileage. It hasn't changed either. As for the coolant, red line says in their literature that reducing the normal 50/50 mixture to 25% antifreeze/75% water will help further reduce your coolant temperature (water conducts heat away better than antifreeze). I used that prestone water especially "formulated" for car radiators, with the 25/75 mix. I really can't tell any difference here, either.

I know we all want our cars to run better, faster, get better mileage, run cooler, etc. Just remember how many people were fooled into believing that slick 50 was a miracle lubricant, and how long it took people to catch on to this fraud. I'm just trying to save people some money. If I run across a miracle in a bottle, you guys will be the first to know. I'm still trying different things, I just haven't found anything that I am absolutely convinced has improved my cars performance. You'll have to excuse me now, I have to go pull out my Bosch + 4's and put regular copper ones back in because someone said my car will run better with copper. Good luck, choose carefully, Wayne Reynolds

Wayne Reynolds
 

Your reply was sent to me to answer. Others may have recieved it as well.
You, our knight in shinning armour, trying your best to save us poor mortals from BLOWING our hard earned bucks is to be commended.
Not many that I know were bilked into putting Teflon in our crankcases.
MoS2 is another matter and no discussion to someone so opinionated on the matter is required.
If we put all of the snake oil remodies in our gastanks and crankcases we would be manufacturing fuel not consumming it.
MoS2 did improve my fuel consumption, not much but every little bit helps.
Red Line offers many excellent products ie. Synthetic oils that surpass the allmity Mobil I, Water wetter a surphactent that DOESNOT reduce the proper dillution of de-mineralized H2O : Red Coolant as determined by all the automanufacturers and the coolant manufacturers.
The formula protects the non ferrous components in the cooling system of all modern engines.
Should, and let's hope you don't have a corrosion problem, go to Red Line with your tail of woe, after all you did follow thier guide lines.
I,m sorry to see you change from your B +4 plugs just because of something you overheard.
Most of us familiar with the nature of the beast use copper cored(the cheap ones) spark plugs and ignite them with MSD or Jacob's Systems. That little bit that helps.
Now after reading this small book, you may ask yourself how does this quack come off telling me like it is?
As you said, "just passing on words of wisdom, or something to that effect.
I don't know what other matters you brought to the forum, possibly some other member will join in, but until then,
Happy Trails Beep Beep from Houston!!!
Donald, El Cheapo

[Edited by Donald L. Swinford on 03-06-2001 at 09:09 PM]

Just had oil pan down on the 84 380se to replace right rear
piston due to previous owners misfortune of leaving one of
the metal washers for mounting the air cleaner assembly on
top of the engine inside the air filter. And guess what happened when he ran the engine after putting the air filter
housing back on. You got it, washer ended up in right rear
cylinder and ruined piston and cylinder head. Which brings me to the point of the rod bearing looking like new still
with 130000 miles on it and I was the first person to look inside crank case since it was new. There was a lot of tarnish build up inside of engine also which is a good sign of lack of oil changes. If this engine which is 17 years old and has not been properly maintained still has like new
bearings in it and since putting it back together has been running great with no bearing noise then what is the point of adding engine oil additives? These cars run forever with out them. Out of all the makes and models I work on these
cars are by far the best I have ever seen.

Well don't I know it! The only reason I started this thread was to find out why Mercedesshop.com sold that stuff if it was supposedly not any good for your car! I guess I got my answer'S'!!

mamula
 

It's unfortunate that you had to realise what most already knew.
At 130,000 miles on your engine, normally it would not require disassembling as you did.
The lower portion of the M/B engine's life could be infinent taken care of properly.
The bearings surfaces are as new, and the cylinderwalls still show the machining marks with little or no top cylinder ridge.
Typically at 150,000 miles and higher, the engine might require cylinderhead service.
What I'm trying to impress upon you is the long engine life to be expected provided it doesn't get a diet of metal objects through the induction system.
Happy Trails Beep Beep from Houston!!!
Donald, El Cheapo