190e Hard Start / Starter Dies

[menace_eh!]

I have a 1987 190E. First, I will say that the engine was replaced with one from a 1986 vehicle. I initially had trouble starting it after the new engine was dropped in, so I took it to the garage that sold me the used engine for help. They got it running; however, they noted that the vehicle was still not starting properly. The repair included adjustement of the timing? Although the shop was able to get the car running, they said, "...something wrong with the starter." The car will start, usually after 2-3 tries during which the starter will bog down to no action whatsoever. Additional tries may or may not be successful. It seemed to be a starter problem, so I replaced the starter and all associated wiring. The battery was new in 2003. It has been tested at the parts store from which it was purchased. The park safety switch has been jumpered. The ignition switch has been replaced along with the mechanical portion of the same. The bottom line symptom is this: With the ignition switch off, the starter works fine jumpering the solenoid wire under the hood directly to the battery. Jumpering pins 30 and 50 on the ignition switch with the ignition switch off works fine. Turning the ignition switch on while performing the former tests causes the symptom to return. Also, removing the ignition wire from the coil to the distributor and trying to start the car with the ignition switch on will turn the engine over fine.

I would appreciate any help possible. Is there a compatability problem from model year 1986 to 1987?

[Moneypit SEL]

Sounds like too much ignition timing advance to me. Specification is 0 degrees advance while cranking.

[menace_eh!]

I have removed the vacuum hose to the distributor timing advance while turning the engine over. The symptom persists. Does removing vacuum from the advance provide 0 degree advance while cranking, or does the distributor require vacuum for 0 degree advance? Is this the right test technic?

[Moneypit SEL]

Don't know...I've never worked on one. Vacuum has little to no effect at cranking rpms, and it should certainly start with the vacuum hose attached.

Here's what I was able to find out for timing specifications:

TDC +/- 2 deg at Cranking rpm

Below 20 deg at Idle rpm

18 - 22 deg at 4000 rpm
Note: Without vacuum, intake air temperature sensor plug pulled off.

29 - 33 deg at 4000 rpm
Note: With vacuum, intake air tempertaure sensor plug pulled off.

Dwell 10 - 54 % or 9 - 49 degrees at Cranking rpm
30 - 60 % or 27 - 54 degrees at 4000 rpm

[mctwin2kman]

What parts of the 1986 engine were replaced? The 1986 engine is 8:1 compression and uses KE-II Jetronic fuel management. The 1987+ engines used 9:1 compression and KE-III Jetronic. The 1987+ engine was 130Hp and the 1986 is 120Hp. But if you just had the block swapped and head but kept all the sensors and AFM and distributor from the 1987 you should be fine. At some point the distributor changed from vacuum advance to electronic controlled via the Ignition Control Module.

[menace_eh!]

The complete engine from the 1987 was replaced with a 1986 complete engine with the following exception: The throttle valve body and switch from the '87 was installed on the '86 engine to fix the switch connector compatability problem. Either the '86 or '87 had a 2 conductor connector vs. a 3 conductor connector. One noticable difference between engines is the '86 has a vacuum advance part(?) on the distributor while the '87 engine did not. Based on this information, what parts need to be swapped over from the '87 to the '86 engine? And, will the Ignition Control Module need to be replaced?

I apologize for my ignorance. This is my first engine swap. My wife wants her car back, and I need to get this monkey off my back! I appreciate all your comments and advice. Thanks.

[menace_eh!]

I was about to swap distributors when I noticed the '86 engine has a green wire from the distributor to the Ignition Module, whereas, the '87 dizzy has no connector. Installing the '87 dizzy would leave an empty connector on the IM. What next? What am I missing?

[menace_eh!]

The solution was swapping the IM for a 1986 model year 190e. The TD signal for the 1987 engine comes from a sensor near the flywheel on the bell housing. The TD signal for the 1986 engine comes from the distributor. On the advice from a local service shop, I replaced IM's and left the inputs from various sensors disconnected. Although engine performance may suffer without additional sensor input, the engine runs well, and it does not bind while starting. Thanks for all the help from those who left feedback to my queries.