W140, how good? how bad are they really?
 

Thinking about getting a later year S500, what are your experiences?

I have an S320 which is very cheap to maintain and operate. Its ultra comfy on the highway and is rather fuel efficent for its size. The people who post stuff about the 140 being expensive to own and operate are people who don't have respect for the cars and are not willing to learn about their features and technolgy (ie. they should be driving japanese to begin with). 140's are complicated cars and if you buy one you should plan on learning about it. Bringing it straight to the dealership when trouble comes your way is a great way to part with thousands of dollars.

I personally would not buy an S500. There are a few reasons. The S500 has a big V8 engine in it which in itself will be more intensive to maintain than the 6 cylender. When the top end overhaul time comes around its 2 times as expensive because there are two heads rather than one. The 6 has plenty of power and gets better fuel economy. The S500's also commonly come with rear A/C (coolant lines run under the car and can corrode and cause your whole system to fail) and ADS which are options that I would avoid. ADS which is the Adaptive suspension does not give any better ride quality than the standard suspension and adds to the complexity of the car. Each one of the "shocks" in the ADS system costs about $1000 each. The shocks for the standard suspension are $130 each. Of course we won't even mention the computer that controls ADS that most scanners can't read codes from.

If your going to go with a 140 go late model. The 1992-1995 models have biodegradable wiring harnesses that are a pain to deal with. Additionally 1996 and newer 140's have OBDII that allows you to buy a cheap scanner for most engine related issues. Additionally the 1995 and older cars have a lot of much more complicated accessories that break and are very expensive to repair. They also got a lot of the bugs out of the 140 in the later cars. Evaporator failures (a common ailment of 140's) are quite uncommon on 1996 and later cars. The later models also give you a nicer 14 speaker bose audio system with 4 deckmounted subs and Tweeters in the rear view mirror housing. You also get more up to date interior colors and better exterior styling that makes the car look less massive.

There is NOTHING on the planet that rides better than a well maintained 140 chassis car. My friend's 2006 Lexus LS430 has a rough ride in comparision to my 140 that needs some minor front end service. Even the 220's seem cheap in comparison to a 140 due to the lack of double pane glass and lighter weight construction. The 140 seems like a bank vault in comparison to any car on the market.

The 140 was such a wonderful design that a Chinese firm has bought some of the plans from Mercedes Benz and is producing a similar car with some different cosmetics. I forget the name of the company but it says something when a design that was eliminated several years previously is still being produced.

In my opinion the 140 chassis was the last car that Mercedes Benz ever produced. Mercedes Benz Died at the turn of the 21's century and the company that exists now is just using the old companies reputation to sell inferior cars.

"Tweeters in the rear view mirror housing. " Really? Cool.

Cool because I just bought a '97 S320 , Dealer maintained with all records, local southern car , Black Opal Pearl Metallic , 106K miles, paid right at $12,000.

Headgasket done at 67K, lifetime trans fluid changed at 67K. I had written a long post about my thought process, but when I went to post it timed-out and I lost it. I don't have time to re-write the thing.

The car is a dream. I agree with the previous post. I can't really see many areas that are wildly more expensive than my 300E's.

The seats, oh the seats! Pneumatic lumbar, seat bottom adjusts in an out under your thighs. The double pane glass, quiet. Rain sensing wipers, two instead of 1. Interior room, huge trunk, self dimming mirrors, a glove box, a moonroof, nice projector head lights, great climate control, great sound system, cd changer in the trunk. On and on it goes.

I love this car.

Steve

Get in the drivers seat of your car and grasp the steering wheel. Pull yourself forwards and look up beyond the back of the rear view mirror. In the windshield hugging box that your windshield wiper "eye" is located in is a a set of tweeters.

Not sure if your car has them but my 99 does. :)

I forgot about the climate control. The 140's have a high mounted condenser that is located right behind the dashboard. This makes the A/C system extremely efficient. My car is black and is probably the best car I have owned A/C wise. The A/C is ice cold almost instantly when starting the car and the rest feature allows me to keep the interior cool when I am running short errands. Even if I have to leave the car in the sun for a long period of time the rear roller blind and tilting sunroof with vented sunshade keep the interior reasonably cool even if you could fry and egg on the black paint. Of course Im sure the double paned glass and pneumatically sealing quadruple sealed doors help to keep it cool as well.

Well said.

Mad1, thanks for the link, it is a good info for me.
Like mentioned in the other post, test drove the car, really like the feel of it. It is total different from my other mbz. E420 is my daily drive and I only drove 560 once a week. It is difficult for me to descide which one to keep. It is too ealry for me to worry. By the way, what is the biggest reapir for you guys?

Greg
What is the status of your book?

Interesting. Does it have a delay setting that can be adjusted?

Not sure that I agree with you there. The 6cyl engine found in the 140 has been produced for many years before the 140 even existed and is quite reliable. Additionally its such a good engine its found in many other Mercedes cars from E classes to SL's and many many others. Comparing it to a Yugo engine is a bit silly actually.

Additionally as powerful as the V8's are they are not very efficent engines. My 6cyl engine develops 230 HP while the V8 found in the 220 chassis only develops 302hp. For as much gas as the V8 consumes and the additional cost in servicing you would think that you would get a bit more than 72hp for your trouble. With 2 more cylenders and almost 2L more displacement than the 6 you would think they could have squeezed more than 72 horsepower out of it. I wonder what the HP advantage would really be considering the extra weight of the V8 block? Comparing this whopping 72 horsepower to an aircraft engine is just as silly as the Yugo comparison. BTW Yugo's have 3 cylenders! FYI!

While it might make you feel superior to have the S500 badge on the back of your 140 your paying a premium for (maint and fuel) it and not getting much back in return. The bottom end S280 sedan is not even sold here in the US as many Americans don't do much real thinking when it comes to engines they just want their V8 regardless if they get any real advantage from it.

As for the V12 engine I think your comparing apples and oranges. The V12 140 is really a supercar in disguise. While you might make a similar claim at how horrible Ferrari engines are they like the V12 were produced with a different mission in mind than transporting Yuppies back and forth from the office. They require a lot of specialized care that most owners just can't afford. Quite honestly Im really surprised that MBUSA still imports them as we don't have any suitable roads to drive them here. Most of those cars idle in bumper to bumper traffic driven by owners that would crash and die if given a suitable stretch of road to open them up. Sad really.

Right you are. I was thinking of the Evaporator. As inefficent as it may be mounting it behind the dash is brilliant as the cool air has less of a distance to travel. Rather than cooling the plumbing behind the dash it cools the passengers the purpose for which it was designed in the first place. Even on the hottest of days my A/C manages to cool the car quickly and keep the interior a nice cool 72 degrees.

It was my understanding that most of the Evaporator issues had been solved in 1997-1998 model year cars. Is this not true?

Buckwheat wrote, "The 119.970 and .980 is probably the most robust, toughest and powerful motors ever to be put in production by MB. I keep two on the bench as a hobby, I have never seen an internal failure of a 119."

I'm with Robert. Why do we really need more than what the M104 6 delivers.
We aren't drag racing. Actually, the S320 does 0-60 in 8.9 seconds. Plenty fast for me. Cruising down the interstate at 80 mph is 2800 rpm versus a much lower figure for the V-8. About the same highway mpg as I understand.

The comment about never having seen a V-8 internal failure is kind a non-statement. So what. How many internal failures of IL 6 has anyone heard of? Virtually zero.

IL 6 has it's issues, like headgasket, but M104 is virtually bulletproof. Short timing chain path is a longevity advantage. I have a M103 engine with 245K, and an M104 with 252K. Both singing along.

It's pretty hard to argue that the maintenance cost on V8's is less. Maybe if you happen to keep a couple of engines on stands as you hobby. There are what, 5 people in the country that fit that scenario.

I have read about the oil tube failure issues on the V8's. No big deal if you do your own work. Big deal if you are paying to have it done. Same thing for timing chain or valve job.

There is no answer to the 6 versus 8 question, just different strokes for different folks.

Steve

The hp difference between might be just 70. But it is still 30% more and the torque is 50% more which is pretty substantial.

Another question: I noticed a couple of 99 S on ebay and their production dates are shown as first half of 1998 like 02, 03, 04. Are they considered as truly 99 model? I thought the new model year starts in July each year? Can someone clarify this for me?

What's the difference? I doubt anything changed between those dates.

I would never buy a car like an S500 on e-Bay. Talk about risky.

Just my opinion.

Steve

I wonder how substantial that extra power becomes with the extra weight your carrying around in the front?

Where exactly do you plan on driving this car? My S320 gets up to 80+mph effortlessly and has plenty of power. Unless your planning on drag racing or doing a Ronin style chase on the highway or are taking it to the track the S500 badge on the back of the car is just snob factor. Personally I did not buy my car to make up for ego shortcomings.

While im sure the S500 is faster is it really worth the extra expense? Your going to pay extra to get the car, fuel the car and service and repair the car. The initial purpose of this post was to indicate "how bad are they". I think S320's are great cars. S500's adds many layers of complexity that I would not be willing to deal with. From the $6000+ in parts in the useless hydropneumatic suspension down to paying double when you need a top end overhaul its just not worth it to me.

If the extra power is worth it to you I certainly hope you enjoy it. You certainly will be paying a premium for it. I hope its really worth it for you in the long run.

Good luck

Their new Ebay slogan should be.

"Ebay a place where a fool and their money quickly part"

With the amount of these cars available locally its just simply stupid to purchase one on Ebay. Essentially your committing to buy a vehicle without being able to test drive it based on some digital photos. A car is a lot more complicated than beany babies or a furby. Lets say your seller is having issues out of their 722.6 transmission that are intermittant and their mechanic has indicated a failure is in the future. The owner has the car detailed snaps some really good photos and slaps it on ebay to sell the car for top dollar. With the extra money he gets he buys another car and has money left over. The buyer on the other hand gets to have an expensive and painful transmission overhaul after paying top dollar for their car. Ooops!

The nice thing about the larger engines is the effortless way they push the car. The M104 is a grand motor, but it isn't an M119. It doesn't sing like an M119 when its on its cams, and it doesn't pull like one either. Not that the M104 doesn't have its own charm.;)

Mpg difference isn't that much, if it was a lot more then 5-8 I'd be surprised. If that much of a difference bothers you then honestly you really shouldn't be looking at these cars. These are not Honda's, they are very expensive $80k sedans, remember that. Even if you buy it cheap its still an $80k+ car.

Each W140 model offers something for different people and tastes. As much as I like the power the V8's offer I really don't feel like fueling one. But come next year when I will probably be looking, I won't turn down a nice S420 either.;)

In the end maintaince costs are about a wash, fuel costs as well. Buy whatever one you like, and is in the best shap. There are a ton of beat trashed W140's out there, dig up a good one.

Of course the S600 is a different animal, I don't group it with the other W140's because it shouldn't be. S600's are great cars, just don't buy one unless you can afford it. If you can afford one, enjoy.:cool:

What about the latest batch of MB's?
 

Robert, I have heard it said in a number of places that the quality of MB's has improved considerably in the last year or two. I wonder what you, or anyone else who would care to comment, think about this. This capitalization upon a brand name happens all the time. Smart CEO's don't try to ride that for too long.

Personally, I like the <1994 models better than then 1994-2000 models just in terms of appearance. The last few model years have been very appealing aesthetically.

They have. I'd go out an buy a W221, S550 right now if I had the money. :D

By what measure? That they haven't broken down in their first year or two of life? This sounds like J.D. Power first year owner satifaction stuff which is a poor meausure of real quality. If it's Mercedes saying this it is perhaps wishful thinking and certainly a lowering of standards - that they would be pleased that their cars are lasting for a year or two.

To me the car to get is a 420, an early one without a 722.6 which started in 1996. Plus if you get an earlier one you get metal oil tubes - an engine for which it's hard to think of a single congentital flaw, unlike the 104 which has several significant ones. You must stay away from ASR - the single most important thing you can do in looking for any MB.

I'm just posting this because I feel like taking a break.

When I read things that just make no sense, I must respond.

Hatteras Guy, wrote, "In the end maintaince costs are about a wash."

Huh? The S500 has pneumatic rear suspension with 1,000 dollar a pop
dampers in the rear and nitogen spheres that go bad. A V-8 is significantly more complex than a IL6. There are two heads, more valves, harder to get to components, more complex chain path (rail guide failure thing). The S420 and S500 cars are more expensive, and logically will cost more to maintain on average. Emphasis on the words "on average". We can all drown in the statistical river that averages 3 feet deep, but has 50 foot deep valley in the center of the river."

So exactly what is the logic behind this statement?

Steve

No one has internal problems with engines anymore. In fact if you want to compare the M104, which is known to blow head gaskets once in awhile, with the M119 which is known to blow oil tubes to, its about a wash. Maybe even give the edge to the M119, because either way you cut it a head gasket is a pricey thing to change.


Shocks are shocks, if you have to change them oh well. I'm not going to, not buy an S500, because one day I may have to change a rear shock out.

Dollar for dollar its all a wash when you crunch the numbers. So you spend a grand to change a rear shock on an S500, you could spend that same money doing a head gasket on an S320. A grand spent on a car is still a grand spent on a car, regardless of where its spent.

Just my 0.02 cents on all the above subjects:

- Based on extensive experience with BOTH models (S500 and S 320): The M119 is definitely smoother, torquier and more satisfying than the M104 on a W140. Most drivers will not notice the difference on daily driving, but when pressed or at highway speeds, the difference shines through.

- The S 500 is less fuel efficient than the S 320 on town, BUT at long distance highway cruising it is actually marginally more economic.

- It has been proven that the M119 will easily triple the mileage of any M104 before any work has to be done inside the engine (in cases of similarly maintained units).

- Of all the M.B.s that I have owned for the last 21 years, my S 500 L has been the most reliable and cheaper to mantain, no contest!

- The evaporator issue persisted thorughtout the ENTIRE W140 production life. The issue was simple: the evaps were made of a combination of cooper and alluminun (two materials which do not mix) and M.B. did never fixed the problem by switching to a full cooper evap.

- The speaker behind the center rearview mirror is actually just one tweeter, which is used to fill high notes for ambiance purposes (since the main speakers are mounted low at each door). The Bose Soundsystem in the W140s did not have 5-channel sorround sound, just plain stereo with the addition of the rear shelf woofers (at the most you could call it a 2.1 system [L + R + subwoofer signal]). The central tweeter carries L and R signals slighty time delayed.

- For most markets the W140 was made from early 1991 to the middle of 1998. Only in the U.S. the life of the W140 was extended for the 1999 model year as production of the W220 picked up.

- Later production (lets say facelifted units) models tend to be more reliable than early production, as many problems were fixed by redesigning the culprits.

An example with unique styling
 

is one I stumbled across at this link. It won't look like anyone else's 140!

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=204360822&dealer_id=58036750&car_year=1997&model=S320&num_records=&bkms=1153791958559 &lang=en&isp=y&start_year=1996&mod_bookmark_id=null&certified=&search_type=both&distance=300&make=MB &min_price=&address=49546&advanced=&end_year=1998&max_price=&cardist=111

As usual, well stated Mr. Rosich. Can't argue with a thing you said, except..

It has been proven that the M119 will easily triple the mileage of any M104 before any work has to be done inside the engine (in cases of similarly maintained units).

I think that is the rub. There are lots of ill maintained units out there. As a practical matter it's one thing to find target cars on the internet and then try to research them. Do you believe the seller? A lot of this is simply that people can't or chose not to maintain these cars. Just check out the number of luxury cars running around in the summer with the windows down.

So if you are correct and the V8's will last 3 times longer the 6 before any necessary internal repairs then one must find a nicely maintained example at a suitable price in a location that is close enough to inspect the thing. The location also needs to be close enough so that the travel costs aren't too bad. Then you have to buy it before someone snatches it out from under you. A guy came on the lot just as I putting down my deposit. He was also ready to buy and had driven 50 miles to buy the car.

The S320 I bought just happened to be in the right place at the right time.
If it had been a V8 I would have bought it.

Honestly though, part of driving these cars is tinkering with them. If I drive the M104 for the useful life of the engine, say another 200,000 miles, I'll probably be bored, and changing cars anyway.

Enjoyed the discussion and learned several more tidbits.

I did wonder about Robert's statement on the Evaporator failure rate going down with the later cars. I had read before, that the design didn't change.
So perhaps it's simply that the later models are just newer and will fail in due time.

Steve

The funny thing in reading this thread is how 5 or 6 years ago (and I'm sure the threads still exist) everyone was saying the 126 chassis was the LAST TRUE MERCEDES and the 140 is junk. I KNEW this day would come and I think you can even find me quoting this on the boards here somewhere. Then, as now, I like to quote Billy Joels' "Keeping the Faith": "The good old days weren't always good and tomorrows not as bad as it seems." Maybe MB should drop "Green Onions" and substitute it with this instead!
The 140, to put it bluntly, can tear your heart and wallet out. Who was that actress that said "when I'm good I'm really good and when I'm bad I'm even better"? The 140 is more like when it's good it's really good and when it'd bad it's REALLY bad. Your broke, unless you're really loaded. I agree with sticking with an S500 M119, that was a really good motor/tranny combo. Watch for leaks, not just the evaporator but the steering gear box too. The later in the run the better, which is true with ANY Mercedes though.
The speaker discussion, I don't know everything, but I don't remember tweeters on the inside mirror, I thought they were on top of the dash on the sides, don't remember a center one, BUT make sure you're not looking at the hands-free microphone (cell phone). Remember these were built when cell phone technology was just barely chugging along (ANALOG! all we had was analog!) and MB really was trying to stay ahead. But it was hard to keep up with the changes back then when you wanted to just do the one major model change a year.
Gilly

Oh just read the message on the evaporator, hey I think originally they put a coating on the evaporators to help fight the mold problems, and they found that the coating held in some moisture and that's what caused all the evaporators to rot out (corrosion at the joints).
Gilly

Hmmmm

And trade OBDII and a number of production quality improvements in for crumbling wiring harnesses outdated zebrano wood interior with outdated A/C controls? Your wiring harness replacement and special code reading tool (or $100 a pop trips to the dealership for use of their Star diagnostic system) would easily outcost a 722.6 overhaul?

To each their own I guess.

The Tweeter is "behind" the rear view mirror. You can only see it while cleaning your windshield. You can get a bluetooth adapter for the old vehicle wiring system and use the external antenna and speakersystem for any bluetooth phone. Much more trouble than a $25 bluetooth headset that you can seamlessly switch from car to outside with. :)

Are the shocks not replaced in pairs? For such a nice car to lean on one corner would be quite embarrasing. The Part alone is $1000 not to mention what it would cost to have someone replace it. Not to mention the computer module which is not very compatible with many of the code reading systems on the market. Realisticly I bet your at least $3000+ for just two of them from a reasonable independant. How many people have replaced these themselves? Anyone?

Just some facts here from the EPA website

MPG's
S500 15/21
S320 17/24

Annual Fuel Cost
$2814 S500
$2393 S320

Not sure how the V8 would get better fuel economy with 3 less MPG fuel efficency. My S320 gets a rock solid 23.9mpg in my mixed highway/city driving route to work.

Very interesting about the Center speaker. I assumed it was two because it would be odd to have a 13 speaker system. But then again it sounds odd to have a 5cyl turbodiesel. :)

Thats also very interesting about the 1999 model year. My 1982 300SD is an American only model and so is my S320. :)

I have a few major objections to the S500
-less fuel efficient (not much but it is less efficient)
-high cost hydropnumatic suspension
-higher cost to buy (most people don't know about other S class models other than the S500)
-double the bill on engine work with two heads (I plan on owning my car well beyond engine overhaul time)
-rear A/C (corroded lines taking down the whole system for a useless "gee whiz" feature)

Since I outgrew stop light racing in my early 20's the extra power is not something I would really utilize. While it might be "nice" to have the extra power paying $421 a year in additional fuel costs for engine power I cant use is not worth it to me. I would not throw $400 out the window nor would I give it to a stranger nor would I waste it if I could avoid it. I Also don't like green eggs and ham. Sam I am :)

Headgaskets are one thing but heres another consideration many people are not thinking of. When your car is 20+ years old and its value has bottomed out and its time for an engine overhaul are you going to spend the money? With the 6cyl you do have the option of going with a used engine. The 6cyl in the 140 is a very popular engine across many different cars and its likely they would be quite easy to come across in the used marketplace. The V8's are rather limited to S Class cars and SL's and with many other owners needing engines at the 20 year mark the pickings might be a little slim for you. I like my car a lot and don't like the idea of it being parted out in 20 years because of the inability to find a reasonably priced engine when my value has hit rock bottom. When I go to visit my parts guy who sells used parts he usually always has a V8 126 chassis car being stripped for parts (not just 380's either) because of the value vs repair equation. Many of the parts from those cars are still rolling around on my 126 diesel. Its really a shame that the original cars could not have survived the test of time and money. :(

A friend of mine with a 300SL had a friend hit a curb with his car. The quote for another engine was $10K as the oil pan was damaged which in turn shredded the engine. He was able to find a used engine with low mileage out of a wreck for much less. Considering he has an early year 129 the new engine easily rivals the value of his whole car.

To me that's not even close. OBDI works quite well and the code reader is under $10. 119 wiring harnesses aren't that bad, they have probably twice the life of a 104 motor and cost less as well. The 722.6 problem is not just the costly overhaul but the frequency of failure. It seems to be about half the life on average and twice the rebuild cost. I'm not sure what production quality improvements you're talking about but there was a lot of cheapening of the cars as well. Plus you have things like costly keys and ignitions and more cars with ASR. I subscribe to the "nothing after 1995" theory. The 722.6 is a big part of that but certainly not all of it. 1996 was a watershed year in the decline of this company.

I used to agree with your nothing after 1995 statement until I did some research on my current 1999 S320. Its not just the engine wiring harness you have to worry about. The entire car has the same enviromentally friendly insulation. The engine is just the tip of the iceberg for these cars. Eventually as they age the wiring inside the car will begin to break down as well.

The 140's design was done in 1992 and perfected in 1996. Some of the "cheapening" of the cars you speak of was the elimination of not very useful and expensive to repair accessories such as the chrome parking assist shafts on the trunk deck lid.

Honestly I think some of the earlier 140's are just plain ugly. Two tone paint schemes and zebrano wood interiors were showing their age on the 126 but are totally out of place in a 140. My 1999 has a nice Parchment colored interior and a light root wood on the dash that looks MUCH more up to date than the 1970's zebrano and Palomino interiors. And of course lets not talk about the Becker radio. Do the older 140's have the Bose system as well? Does it sound good with the crummy Becker in the dash?

I think the 140 is just starting to be less scary to owners now there is more information about the cars. Additionally as computers become more common place the understanding level is there. In 1992 these cars were cutting edge and personal computers were not very common. Without an understanding of the systems involved and how they communicate the car was a bit of a "black box" then.

Build quality wise and attention to detail the 140 is much better than the 126. One just has to open the drivers door to see the difference in build quality and attention to detail between them. The 126 has a thin door with a standard latch single paned glass and is double sealed. The 140 door has countless seals double paned glass is quite thick and has a pneumatic closure assist.

With the 220 I honestly think Mercedes is going backwards rather than forwards. The doors are thinner and cheap feeling (as with most of the interior on the 220) and you have lost a number of features from the 140. While the 220 is an upgrade if your looking for sat nav or any of the other features that it offers fit and finish are not on the same level as the 140 was. I saw the 220 for the first time at an auto show. When I sat in it I thought it was an E class because of the cheap rounded plastic buttons inside and the cheapened interior.

The 221 is a ray of hope though. It has a lot of cutting edge features on it and appears to have a higher quality fit and finish than the 220. Its also quite an attractive car and looks more like an S class should.

Here is a question.

In what year did MB switch back to normal wiring versus bio wiring?

Robert talked about buying used M104 engines. My Indy , granted a small dataset, commented that he has never seen a M104 head that needed a valve job. Headgasket yes, valve job no. Said it has to do with the design of the head.

My M103 is at 245K no valve job yet. The M104 in my '93 is at 252K. It had a headgasket at around 150K, but no valve job according to the paperwork.

So seems to me that about the only thing likely to fail is the headgasket which is about $800 to $1,000 at my local indy. He'll do a valve job on the M103 for $1,200.

Steve

Question for Robert.

Robert , you have mentioned rear air conditioning twice.

What exactly do you mean by rear air conditioning?
My car has A/C vents and controls for the rear passengers.
I was thinking this is just cool air coming through ducting to the rear from the front compartment.

Sounds like you are referring to something more complex.
Was this an option on S320's?

Steve

Just a quick hit and run here, yes there was an option for rear AC. You always had the vents in back of the console which piggyback off the front AC, but there was an option which included a rear evaporator, you would then have a temp (red/blue) dial in back as well as the vents. Glitzy yes, but if you're trying to impress clients............

Gilly

Why are we getting links to Kohler toilet seats in the Google search thing at the bottom of this thread???

Went out an looked. I just have the normal vents for the back.

One less problem to worry about.

Steve

Right, you have the 2 vents you can adjust, and between the vents, the "on" position looks like 2 small rectangles next to each other, and "off" is a zero. The AC controls are quite elaborate by comparison. In the later years i think they were actually orange backlit LCD. I may be thinking of 220 though. But much fancier than stock at any rate. On the rear AC it has it's own evaporator, but the freon cam from the same system as up front, only 1 compressor. The heat that might be needed in back I also think came from up front, which makes me think that if the front passengers and rear passengers had a real conflict in what "comfortable" means, the rear passengers might lose out, especially if the rear passengers want it ALOT warmer than the front ones.
With the stock rear vents, the air temp is dependent on the front setting only, but you can shut the vents off if you don't like it. If the climate control is "off" you get nuttin'.
On the rear AC I believe you will actually activate the system if you call for it (has it's own fan, etc).
Gilly

I'd figure out how to do it myself. I figure I'm probably about as smart as the German who built the thing.:D

My grandparents XJ8 has a 300hp V8 and returns an honest 23-24 on the highway. Now granted this is going down to FL and the roads are pretty flat.

Still most of this argument is acidemic, buy what you like is what it comes down to.

What will you do?
Should I buy the 99 S500 I found and sell the 90 560sec? Or just give up the idea of buying S500 and keep the 560sec. This is my second (weekend) car. I only drive it once a week.
99 S500, 73000 miles, blk/blk, 8.5-9-9 (Exterior-Interior-Mechanical) on a 10 scale, will be 3rd owner.
90 560sec, 55000 miles, smoke silver/beige, 8.5-9-9, 2nd owner.
Like both cars but can’t keep both. Got another 94 E420 as daily driver. What do you think?

For me it wouldn't even be close.

Buy the 560 SEC. It is a timeless classic, and will probably never lose value should you keep it up. Probably the best car Mercedes ever built.

The S500, while a nice car, is just a big 4 door sedan. No collectable value at all.

Let me clarify this
I do own this 560sec for almost 4 years already.

Looking at your current list of cars, it appears that all are sort of sporty.

I have two 300E Sportlines, a '92 and a '93. Now I have the '97 S320.

The S class is big. Luxury ride aimed at interstates. I would not say that
the S class has much fun factor. It doesn't feel as connected to the road.

When I go out and do a back to back drive between the Sportlines and S, it is really strange. The E just feels so tight, crisp , and connected. The steering is much firmer with less boost. Easier to drive the e fast in the corners. Brakes feel better. I just feel more a part of the car.

I've had the S long enough now, that I don't think my opinion will change over time.

I'm going to keep one of the Sportlines just for fun.
Can't wait to make one of my long out of state trips in the S.

Steve

Someone else described this in detail but my main objection with the rear A/C is there are lines that run under the car for it and a complicated duovalve that is exposed to the elements. If one of the lines corrodes or gets hit by road debris it can take down the entire A/C system in the car. There is a rear vent that blows A/C to the back seat passengers already. Most passengers are not going to be familiar with the system enough to use it anyway nor even know to be impressed with it. Its an option that will eventually cost you money to repair and gives little to no benefit to owning the car.

I have never seen the rear A/C on an S320. They have the less expensive Vents that cool the back seat passengers quite well. The passengers cant control the system but its likely the would not be familiar with the system enough to control it anyway without a detailed explanation from the driver regarding what all the dials do. It might be found on some of the LWB S320's however. But its quite common to find it on S500's.

Depends on your idea of fun. Driving on a long trip in a cramped E class does not sound fun to me. The 140 does have little road feel and thats a feature that I really like. Even with this lack of road feel the 140 handles amazingly and is rock solid in most situations.

If I were looking for a sporty fun drive with lots of road feel it probably would not be in a Mercedes for me. Fun driving to me involves a manual transmission and a high revving engine. The most fun car I have ever driven was a BMW 323ci with some Dinan suspension modifications. I liked the 323 because you could actually get into the engine and give it some throttle without getting into outrageous speeds.

Dump the E as a daily driver and buy the S class. I bought my S320 initially as an occasional car and intended to drive my Volvo wagon and my 300SD to work. You would be amazed at how relaxed you are after commuting in such a comfortable and luxurious car. Traffic used to stress me out and now I could not be bothered at all. I just turn up the radio and enjoy the ride.

Another option would be to get a 129 roadster. SL's make wonderful weekend cars.

Im not much of a fan of SEC's to begin with. It will be a very long time before SEC's start seeing a value increase from people finding them really desireable.

Yes, what I meant, and think actually said, was that the S has a purpose and my 300E's with the sport suspension have a purpose.

I agree with the comment about the S having so much more room and being more comfortable on long trips. Comfortable is fun too. That's kind of why I bought it.

On certain rough road stretches in the midwest and NE the Sportline suspension can wear a little thin. I'm sure the S will turn that pavement into
distant noise.

Steve