I think that we have all gone to far in insulting the W140 cars. I have had A/C problems with my S500 but I still love it and wouldn't trade it for a Japanese or American car for anything.I think that we ALL have to remember that when these cars were built they sold at right at $100,000! :eek: That's Rolls-Royce territory. Even the new 2007 S class isn't priced as high if you adjust for inflation. As my mechanic told me when I had a problem with the ACC "You bought a $100,000 car. Even though you only paid $9000 for it, it's STILL a $100,000 car!" When you buy a W140 you need to approach it that way. All of the goodies on a luxury car eventually break. That's a fact of life. Mercedes-Benz was breaking new ground with the W140 and so like all ground breaking products there were things that worked well and things that did not. My Bose Beta sound system works GREAT. The one in my Dad's Cadillac deVille alas did not. I dare you to find a 1993 Lexus that has 157,000 miles on it that hasn't also had issues. I'd also like to know what it would cost to replace like items. For instance, what does it cost to replace an A/C evaporator on an LS400?

In addition, remember that Lexus is just now making a deal about their rain sensing windshield wiper system. The W140 had it back in 1995!;)

Yes and no,

I agree with some of your points and not some of the others. While yes many of the 140's were 100K cars my car was a 60-80K car. When a car ages a lot of the 'secret information' that the dealerships whorde becomes public. So the mystery of working on them is not so much of a mystery. When a number of DIY'ers can perform work on cars it limits how much a mechanic can overcharge for the work. Additionally as a car ages many of the cars "dont' make it" and are junked by their owners giving many owners the option of used parts. When this happens the parts vendors have no choice but to lower their prices as well. If your smart enough to see through the snow job that many of the parts vendors and mechanics are still trying to give 140 owners you can save a great deal of money.

I do agree with you on construction quality. 140's are put together with a quality only seen in cars built 20-30 years previously. If you compare the fit and finish of my 126 to my 140 the 126 seems "cheap" in comparison. Construction quality of the 140 chassis MB's is above and beyond the same vintage Rolls Royce cars even as Rolls Royce was seeing a dip in quality in the early to mid 1990's. If you look through history there are several cars that have done this as well. The Pullmans of the 1960's and 1970's and the 300d Adenauer (not the 123 and not a diesel) are great examples of cars that surpassed Rolls Royce quality.

I have to put on my 2 cents on this. if you are only paying 25K to 33K for a car, I don't expect it to match the quality and craftsmanship to match the 140. Some people feel the ride quality, handling, and other mercedes advantages are worth the cost premium. some people don't, so it a personal judgement there. the higher cost of maintence due to labor and parts price is also acceptable to me. higher quality or complicated parts cost more, and if car is more sophicated, need more time and care to troublshoot and repair... fair enough. However, if I am paying 3 to 4 times mroe for a car, the whole car reliability should be at least equal or better than the less expensive cars. I am seeing that mercedes has AC issues for quite a while until the late 90's. To me that is not acceptable for a $100K car. Mercedes has been in the below average reliability rating for quite a while now. I understand all things wear out and need repair, but if you are charging a preminum for your product you should at least have a average reliability rating.

Whell tell that to the owners of Ferrari's or Rolls Royces. They should be really pissed since they paid well over what we paid for our Mercedes cars and have even more problems. You can't compare Japanese cars with their lawnmower engines with higher end cars as there is no comparison. Even the Lexus line of cars trails behind MB technology at least 2-5 years.

With a certain class of car there is a cost of ownership. If your not willing to pay your dues pick another class of cars.

Your "average" Ferrari has a $12,000 30K service for one of the cheaper models. Not to mention problems with overheating Catalyic converters and leaking hoses that you have to be vigilent with to keep your whole car from burning up. I am considering my first Ferrari and many of the owners suggest a laser thermometer in the glove box in case the "slow down" light comes because of an overheating Catalytic converter. Why do people still buy them? Because there is nothing on the road like them. The same thing is true with many of the Mercedes models.

If my memory serves me a timing belt job on a Ferrari Testarossa costs about $5k these days and needs to be done like every 5 years regardless of mileage. You need to lift the car off the engine, it's decent amount of work.

A timing belt on say a Honda Accord needs to be done every 100k miles now, anyone know what it costs to change? I'll wag $500. Most Honda owners will complain.

Do most Ferrari owners complain? The cheap ones do, most don't care. Its simply the what it costs to play. Rolls Royce are no better, if not worst, a good joke is if you buy a $20k Rolls throw in another $20k and you can drive it!:D

My motto is this, if you want to play with the big boys and own a Mercedes, Ferrari, P car, Jag, Royce whatever, you have to pay with them too.

One should not complain when there $80k S500 blows the evap core and needs $2k to correct. If its such a big deal to you then you probably shouldn't own any high end car, buy a Honda. Lifes to short to worry about crap like that.

Totally agree with everything you just said. Just an FYI. Timing belt and waterpump on most Honda's is about $300 or so at a dealership. At least that was the price when I was doing Japanese cars in College.

I don't know about the V12's as im not quite that brave on a first Ferrari but on the V8's the timing belt is taken care of during the 30K service. Every 30K miles the engine is removed from the car and every belt and hose is changed as well as a number of other parts. Depending on the engine that can run you about $12K. An Engine rebuild is $30-40K.

The Mercedes 600 Pullman limousine (1963-1981)
 

"Virtually every part on the 600 was built solely for this car, and in small (meaning hugely expensive) numbers....

It takes a true specialist, with first hand knowledge and experience, to service and repair or restore these machines. For example, the hydraulic system requires a lightweight special-purpose oil, Mercedes Benz part number 100 890 00 11. While this looks like typical ATF fluid, if ATF fluid is innocently dumped in the hydraulic reservoir--the system that powers the seats, windows, ventilation flaps, sunroof, trunk lid, shocks, and, on the early models, the door assists---you 've just committed a $30,000 faux pas. Typical rebuild costs are: brake system overhaul, $25,000, front or rear axle assemblies, $12,000 each plus $6,000 for the rest of the air
suspension system, driveshaft $7,000. Fully restoring a 600, if you begin with a complete, $20,000 "builder", will set you back at least $150,000.

Prices for the more common SWB 600 have been stable and predictable.
Most used up cars bought by an unsuspecting buyer, run $15,000-$25,000.
These almost certainly need $30,000 in mechanical repairs just to be reliable drivers; after that, you might be able to sell your $50,000 car for $30,000, a near dot-com special.

Obviously, if you must have a 600, you are better off spending at least $70,000 for a good car with 40,000-50,000 miles that has been maintained, with a thick folder full of documentation. Top condition 600 swb 600s will bring well over $100k from savvy buyers who are aware of what it takes to make one right.

If the car runs out okay, and the owner drives it for a year and then sells it without doing anything, he will probably get his money back and have had a good time. But if he comes out one morning and notices the car has adopted a kneeling position at one corner due to the collapse of the the air suspension, he should be aware the good times have ended and the fiscal future is bleak".

~~~Scott Featherman, German Car Profile, "Sports Car Market" 5/2003

Yes Pullmans were not really designed for a mere mortal to own. Many of them had a chauffer and a mechanic that tended to the car's every need. A well taken care of Pullman makes a Rolls Royce seem like a primative leather and wood toy.

Parts are the biggest obstacle of course second only to the greed of those who are trained on how to work on them. :)

Considering how much they cost and who bought them, cost usualy wasn't an issue.

If its a Ferrari it needs to have a V12!:D Although the 355's are coming down in price nicely, one of those would do!:cool:

While the V12's are nice I am most interested in the Pinninfarina coachwork and fun driving. The V8's fit my needs the best.

I see, but what sells me on the V12 is the extremly sweet song they sing when on there cams. A 365 GTB is pure bliss at redline!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-YciWqfNjU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSAUnNQZOf0&mode=related&search=

Sample the sweetness!:cool:

Hmmm Im not sure what traffic is in your neck of the woods but redline in my 6cyl very heavy Mercedes is a handfull. On a track it would be nice but not something I would want to drive for pleasure. :)

Enough traffic that one needs to be carefull when opening up an M120.:D S320 ehh they really don't build speed that fast, quicker than the SDL to 60, highway passing is about average. Not that they are slow...

Plenty fast for me. :)

The Honda had a few squeaks that needed some 1040 oil sprayed on it, that was it? C'mon man!! I've heard of brand new MB's needing entire a/c systems at just 10,000 miles. You really think the few squeaks the Honda had, is WORSE than expensive gasket replacements, chronic a/c problems, etc. How can you argue with that? Best read my original post again, mate. But, based on what you are saying, I will however, make a mental note, that cars with more problems are actually better. Thank you for clearing that up for me.

Dude, wake up and smell the roses. It's a FACT. MB's have MORE problems, many more, and much more expensive, than Honda's, Camry's, Acura's, etc.
You simply cannot argue that. Here's an example for you...... "10 is more than 2". That's a fact. It cannot be argued with. You're simply living in
la-la land, trying to defend your purchase and your car, because you get an ego boost out of it, and have to justify it. Best for you to re-read my original post and say, "You know what, the guy has a point", than to be so stubborn and fight against facts.

My whole point, which you missed several times over, is that for a "top quality car", they shouldn't HAVE such problems. Sure, they will have problems, but there's no EXCUSE for having so many. 15 year old car or not, the Jap cars would have a/c that still works (maybe you're in a cooler climate, but here in Georgia, it gets damn hot), or need maybe a $100 recharge at most. The MB's are WELL known for CHRONIC a/c problems. Bad fans, bad switches, bad compressors, bad systems. Comfortable in Germany or not, they SOLD them to us here in the U.S., and KNEW ahead of time that it gets hot down south. Yet they let people sweat it out because they were too stupid or too lazy to make them better. We're not talking some silly little inconvenient sunroof squeak here, pal. We're talking about driving in 100 degree and high humity heat and a $1200 - $2,000 repair. But by your standards, that means it's a better quality car, is that right? The Honda's and Toyota's (you paid what, $20,000 for an Accord and you're comparing it to a $50,000 MB) , Lexus, and Acura's (the latter two which more directly compete with MB), have transmissions that are flawless up to about 200,000 miles, just like MB. And when the car is taken care of, the overall car lasts as long as a MB.

Maybe you prefer the ride of one over the other, that's a personal preference. The Jap cars I mentioned are extremely well built. For you to say otherwise is just ridiculous. They compare quite favorably with MB, and for many rich people, they prefer those cars, one big reason is, they don't need repairs. Affordability of repairs or not, rich people (who I do a lot of work for) don't want the hassles of taking a car into a repair shop, and many drive Jap cars FOR that reason.

Am I totally dissatisfied with my 300d? No. I just bought it in June and fixed some problems that I knew it had before buying (a/c chief among them). I'll keep it for now, but I've had to repair other things that I have NEVER had to do with any car, and mind you, I just sold a near flawless 1988 Toyota Camry. That's OLDER, if you'll notice, than my 1991 300d. And suddenly, I find myself coming to this site to get repair info on different things. Radio problems, fuse problems, a/c issues, etc. I don't want to spend my time repairing a car. I also admit that when there are no problems, I "feel" like my car is a nice running car. When there's a pending repair, like most people, my opinion of the car changes.

I'm assuming you come to this forum not for repair advice on your car, but to spread good cheer to others about Mercedes, is that right?

Jeff 1991 300d

I think you have some terms mixed up. Quality and the need of repairs are mutually exclusive. Lets make another comparison so you might understand.

A honda is like a Hostess Twinkie Cake. Cheap Boring and with so many preservatives that if you leave it on the counter it will last forever. A Mercedes is like a creation from a pastry Chef. Lots of high quality ingredients and if you leave it on the counter uncovered it will rot. While the Twinkie will last a longer time being abused which would you rather eat?

Japanese cars are great cars for people who don't understand cars and just want to put gas in them. In most cases this is car abuse. People who barely change their oil and have no idea about how a car works buy Japanese cars. When these people buy a more complicated machine like a Mercedes that is designed by Germans who go through a complex licencing program which teaches them about how a car works before they even drive one problems arrise.

Mercedes cars require more service and repair. Thats the way they were desgined. Perhaps that does not blend in very well in our throw away society where your DVD player stops working and its on the curb and your at Walmart buying another one. American consumers want "new" stuff and those shiny plastic Jap cars seem to be the magic bullet.

Let me tell you about my 82 300SD. I had a 2002 Honda Accord Coupe. Which I bought brand new. I bought the 300SD as a project car because I had an instant attraction to it on the side of the road. When I bought it it was filled partially with water because of leaky seals around the windows. I spent quite some time working on the car and bringing it back from the state that I found it in. Eventually as I was bringing the Accord in to the Honda dealer every week for issues with its brakes, power steering, Transmission and squeeks and rattles I suddenly realized that this beast of a car that I spent a few hundered dollars on to clean up was more reliable. My 300SD is 24 years old and has always started for me every time I have ever gotten into it including with defective glow plugs in the middle of the winter. I have been stranded by SEVERAL Japanese cars and never by a Mercedes. I think thats because Mercedes designs their cars to no matter what get home at all costs.

Even my "Service nightmare" 140 has several limp home modes to get me home in the event of an issue. So far my 140 has needed one set of batteries in its remote (because I close the windows and sunroof from outside the car a LOT) and two bulbs in the instrument cluster. If the Evaporatror and Transmission go out tomorrow its going straight to my mechanic for replacements.

I have been reading the Ferrari lists lately and one of the things that Ferrari owners seem to mention is that owning a Ferrari makes little sense but its something they would always do. Perhaps owning a Mercedes is the same way. Ferrari owners have to deal with overheating Catalyitic converters that could at any time start their cars on fire, bad electrical wiring, weak trim and accessory items but they love their cars. MB owners have to deal with 722.6 transmissions bad A/C components but we keep coming back. Like the Ferrari there is nothing like an S class Mercedes Benz out on the open highway. Don't knock us just because your 124 is giving you problems. Try another Mercedes or just bite the bullet and buy a precious Japanese car that will be a diet coke can in 10 more years.

Not to knock you 124 fans out there but the 124 is my least favorite car. For as much trouble as they seem to be they are still a small uninteresting 4 door sedan. Perhaps you might want to try driving a couple of other MB's before condeming an entire model line? I have certainly driven my share of Jap cars.

Japanese cars are great cars for people who don't understand cars and just want to put gas in them. In most cases this is car abuse. People who barely change their oil and have no idea about how a car works buy Japanese cars. When these people buy a more complicated machine like a Mercedes that is designed by Germans who go through a complex licencing program which teaches them about how a car works before they even drive one problems arrise


rchase...what an interesting reply...been a long time since I have posted in this forum...but I feel like I need to chime in
I guess from your quote above it seems to me a good idea that the germans need to hire some of the japanese...when you can't get the simple sytems to work right.....AC evap...window lifts..wiring ..etc something is wrong..I can understand issues in the complex systems...but C/mon why could they not build the 140 with an A/C that would work

Let me tell you the story about the 1992 300SD( 140) that I used to own...many here may remember my car but I will post again to refresh

Bought the car in the late 90's with a 2 year warranty. Had been a 1 owner car owned by a doctor and bought at at Merecedes of Morristown NJ in December 1991
Full MB dealer records indicating a shorted out instrument cluster in 1994 and also MB updated some front end parts and replaced all the tires under warranty.
There was also an evap core replacement in 1996. All of this was warranty work except for the evap where MB paid half of the $2500.00 repair.

I buy the car and asked the dealer .." should I be concered about these issues in the past"..he told me these were average for a 140 and the car had had all the updates

Anyway...during the 2 years of warranty I had on the car.

Closing assist pump
AC evap core(2ND TIME!!)
complete engine long block assembly replaced
AC switchover valve
climate control dash push button control unit
LR window regulator
various front end replacement parts
Alternator
and few other items I forgot to mention I am sure

Total cost to the warranty company for these was about $20,000
All repairs done at my local MB dealer


after warranty period was over:

becker radio exchanged with a rebuilt unit
becker 10 disc CD changer rebuilt
Bose amplifier replaced

I have to say I VERY picky and the car when I got rid of it was cherry...however I was tired of messing with it...and whn I did the value of the car versues the repair ratio it did n't make sense

Have you noticed how cheap you can get a 140( or 220) for these days...( or 126 for that matter)...it hardly makes sense to repair them

anyway so I bought a certified 2000 BMW 740I in 2004 and the costs to warrnty company have been less that $1000

So as for the statement that german cars always break...not true

good luck

Warren
2000 BMW 740I with full sports package
1992 MB 300SD(sold)

Columbus Ohio

Absolutely! You guys with your two bad experiences with your Mercedes are certainly enough proof that the entire Mercedes model line is junk. Ill be selling off my collection tomorrow for $2.00. NOT!

Good luck with the 7 series BMW's. Ever notice the older they get a 7 series BMW sells for about 50% less than the equivelent year model S class? Want to know why? Oh wait you have one. Just wait for a while. You can get an early 1990's 7 series for $1200 while the equivelent MB is still worth $5000-8000 because you can't really keep the early model 7's running. I considered a 7 for a while because they are very nice cars. Do a google on 7 series BMW's and you will find lots of pages on how they are junk. I wish it were not so because I would love to have an 840ci Coupe. :(

Seriously though. Bringing your car to a dealership of any kind while not under warranty is a way of being seriously ripped off regardless of who's emblem is on the hood. Not understanding how your car works is also self defeating behavior when you can't correctly keep the car serviced. Infiniti and Lexus makes some really nice cars with wood and leather interiors that all you have to do is put gas in and drive them. If you don't understand the cars to begin with you probably don't know what your missing in the fake luxury cars.

If Mercedes cars are such junk why is it that many owners put up with their shortcomings so much and put so many miles on them? Why is it that used Mercedes cars have higher resale value than any of the equivelent model cars out there? Why would someone pay so much for so much trouble? How many other car makers convertibles from the 1970's sell for $10K on a consistant basis?

Im not going to comment anymore on this thread. If you guys are not satisfied please by all means buy another brand of car and never come back to the MB model line again. *****ing about the cars problems and spreading negative energy in a forum that is unlikely to sympathize with you is a waste of energy. Why not spend your energy doing something positive in your life?

If Mercedes cars are such junk why is it that many owners put up with their shortcomings so much and put so many miles on them? Why is it that used Mercedes cars have higher resale value than any of the equivelent model cars out there?


you are kidding right?...that used to be the case...look at the MB of the last 10 years. The resale is is nothing to be proud of...you can buy a 2000-2001 S500 in great shape with about 75K miles for 20-22K all day long long( or way less if the miles are over 100K). check out a late 90's e class ... as for the convertible comment and seeling for 10K..look how much the cars were new...and by the way you can buy a 20 year newer convertible( which I would be much more interested in) for $22-25K all day long. These cars that had stickers over 100K when they were new

Good luck with the 7 series BMW's. Ever notice the older they get a 7 series BMW sells for about 50% less than the equivelent year model S class? Want to know why? Oh wait you have one. Just wait for a while. You can get an early 1990's 7 series for $1200 while the equivelent MB is still worth $5000-8000 because you can't really keep the early model 7's running.

Again I have to say you are kidding...funny how you mention this ..I was just looking at a 2002 745 and a 2002 S500 last night....745's tend be about 8-10,000 more expensive on the used car market even thought the s500 was about 10,000 more brand new....as for the older cars check out the prices of the BMW versues MB when they were new( 7 series versus S class) and you will see that the BMW was in many cases about $15,000 less expensive brand new

By the way I dont think I mentioned in my last post that the 1992 300SD was the third benz I owned. I also owned a 1985 300SD which was a solid car and a 1992 300D which was a great car.
Another thing that turned me of on the last benz I owned was the MB zone rep's lack of concern as th why I was having so many problems
He told me in so many words.."why are you upset you are not paying the bills its all been warranty work"
As a person who likes the freshness of newer cars as well as the newer safety features and audio capability I knew that buying a newer 220 model would be a major compromise.All the time I spent at the dealer with my 140 at the time I got to see what the lions share of cars were that they were fixing...that really changed my mind when I went to purchase another car
So far I don't think I mad a bad decision...do I think the 740 I own now is a reliable as an LS430...NO...however I am willing to compromise for a little bit to get more of a driving feel that I like.


Warren
2000 BMW 740I
1992 300SD( sold)
1992 300D( sold)
1985 300SD( sold)

Columbus Ohio

Meaning? What would be a good buy? I am guessing you mean that this a costly car to maintain and I am paranoid about putting money into a older car? ;)

Yes, I agree with you about the part - if you cannot afford to maintain a high-end luxury car, then perhaps its best to steer clear, or the car will be worth nothing in no time.

I must say I have to disagree thought about the part about 200K mile Japanese cars being scrap metal. Its no secret that the newer Japanese cars have declined in quality, but many (or most) of the ones of the 1980s up until about the mid 1990s were high quality cars. My father has a 1988 Nissan truck, with 260K miles and other than tires and brakes, has needed nothing but a starter a couple of years ago @ 245K. My uncle bought it new, so I knew the complete history and he never pampered the truck. In fact, it had the original timing belt until 209K when my dad bought it from him. I have had Accords and Camrys, all with 220K miles. One Camry had 230K and was still like new. One of my aunts has a 93' Camry she bought new, now with 246K. My 90' Lexus LS400 had 254K when I sold it and the girl I sold it to still has it and it has 272K on it now (last time I spoke to her)- all original parts, except timing belt, brakes, etc. I was amazed.

Now there are some 80s Japanese cars that were crap. Some never even made it to 150K without woes, but for the most part- most 80s Toyotas and Hondas would go 250K easily if properly cared for. 80s American cars could not touch them. Still, the 80s Mercedes- especially the S-Class were one of the best built cars out there. Mine has 267K miles, 21 years old and still rattle/squeak free.

What about the 94s?
 

Also, I did not realize there had been so many replies- not to mention someone being banned. My my.

Well, after reading this and other research- it seems $12K is way to much for this car. The "guy" that has it (so he kept being called) is actually an independent Mercedes used dealer/repair shop.

Now they have a 1994 S420, 1-owner, black on black, 164K, claims to be exceptionally well maintained for $4950. How does this sound? I know this one is the one with potentially $$$$ A/C problems. Hopefully this one has been resolved. It is a definite that these cars will have this evaporator problem, or is it possible that one may never have an issue? Maybe I can make a deal with them- stating if it ever goes bad, will they set me a $ now to repair later if needed. What about timing chains? How often on these do they need to be changed and how vital it is on this model? I am assuming that this has an "interference" engine as well?

Here are photos.... Thanks again for any additional advice. If this one does not work out, I will probably be buying a new Toyota truck, but I really like these S-Class Mercedes. My aunt loves her 94' S500 - no issues save for the A/C compressor.

No offense just an oberservation. Trade your 380 in soon before the zipping timing chain snaps!:eek: :D

I wouldn't buy that W140 unless you wouldn't have a problem dropping a few grand a year into it. If so than by all means, the W140 is a fantastic car.:cool: 1997+ are the years to look for, the later in the production run the better.

I understand, no offense taken. After hearing the horror stories about the early W140 (92-94 S-Class), I am really hesitant, despite this 94' S420 being a "1-owner, well maintained" model.

Still a beautiful car, nonetheless and the price is very attractive.... only $4900, but that may signify something is wrong.

I guess I will just keep my 85' 380SE as a back up car and make another selection for my other car. I am going back to Toyota- either a Toyota Tundra or a 96-00 Lexus LS400. I had a LS400 in the past and it was an outstanding automobile. It was a 1990, had 250K and was flawless. I regret selling it. If I get an LS again, it will be at least a 95', with 100K or less miles though. Maybe even a 01' LS430 if I can find a good deal on one.

Thanks again for the replies and keeping me from buying a $$$$ money pit.

The problem with the Lexus is they are so boring. They are the perfect car, they have no fualts. But in being so perfect they have no soul.

This is what I want next, and when I am shoping next fall an XJR will be on my short list. All British, tons of wood, leather, handles like a dream, a 400hp sexy cat.

Lifes to short to drive a Lexus.:D

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=207021098&dealer_id=92921&car_year=2002&num_records=25&search_type=both&make=JAG&dist ance=0&model=JAGXJR&transmission=&address=06460&make2=&certified=&advanced=&max_mileage=&bkms=116079 8100604&max_price=25000&sort_type=yearDESC&min_price=1&body_code=0&end_year=2007&color=&start_year=1 981&drive=&engine=&style_flag=1&doors=&fuel=&cardist=1428

I agree with that..they tend to be boring
I drove a few LS400's and a couple of GS400's this last time around
However they are getting better in regard to that as time goes...and in terms of long term reliability they seem to be tops.
I have seen LS 400's with in excess of 200K miles and the interiors and trimwork seem to hold up well.
I have to say though if you have ever had to pay for many repairs on a 140 out of your own pocket..then maybe you might say boring is not a bad thing


Warren
2000 BMW 740I sport
1992 300SD( sold)
1992 300D ( sold)
1985 300SD( sold)
Columbus Ohio

Those are nice and rather cheap to obtain. I was looking at 1995-1998 XJ6's and XJ8's and had one picked out until I did the test drive. It was a 1998 model and was smooth as glass and handled and drove like a dream. The only problem was the way the center pillar of the car intruded into the passengers compartment and constantly rubbed and bumped my elbow. I did not buy the car and ironically the salesman mentioned that tall people have problems even with the Vanden Plas body because of the intruding center pillar. Im about 6'0" tall and was surpised to have a problem with a car because of being "tall".

The cars are even kind of reliable after Ford got involved. Before you dive in though check parts prices. And you thought Volvo and W140 parts were expensive? <evil grin>

I second the idea. If you dont know what you are buying- the notion is correct. My indie bought a one owner 1978 280SE manual tranny euro model with 37K/ no rust for $1200. Not a thing wrong with it... should he have passed on it because it was "cheap"?

Jag lovers is an excellent forum, every bit as good as this one. Jags are not different than MB, they have there weak points. But amoung Jag fans the 2000+ XJ8's have an awsome reputation for reliability! These are not Fords, the only Ford part on these cars is the oil pan drain plug.

The trans are not that much different than the 722.6, dealer charged my grandparents $6k last year to change theres. But of course done yourself that price could probably be cut in half. Jag parts also cost more than MB parts.

To Rchase
 

Rchase,

Regarding your twinkies analogy, I don't really want to debate which manufacturer is better, a Mercedes or Honda. The Japs didn't start making cars to compete with MB until 1988 with the Acura's. The Jap luxury cars, though good from the start, probably didn't BEGIN to hit their stride until 1992or so, and I think around 1997 they got even better.

I would think today (I can't afford a new car, so I won't know for sure) that Lexus provides a much better vehicle than MB. I can't think of anything MB could really offer to outdo the Jap luxury cars (Lexus, Infinity, Acura), but again, I really don't know, I've never driven them nor do I intend to.

That all said, twinkie or high quality pastry chef, take a look at some repairs that I've never had to do with ANY car, except a MB. We'll have to agree to disagree then, that I think these things shouldn't have happened in the first place by a manufacturer that puts themselves out there as being a #1 car.

1988 300 CE, when it was 10 years old and just 90k on it. (I sold it in 1998).

Oil gaskets, upper and lower $600
Transmission gasket leak $500
A/c problem $500
Broken seatbelt part $30
Inner and Outer CV joints $200
Crummy radio and speakers, came standard on this high quality car

Now for my 1991 300 d, my current car with just 95k on it.

a/c problem $1200
seatbelt retraction problem $50
power steering leak $300
Center link on steering rods $280
The car is on its 3rd dampner (holds the serpentine belt with correct tension)
Dashboard light out (small, but I've never had to replace one on any other car)
Seat spring problem, hurts my rear end after just 15 minutes. Will have to be looked at.
Crummy radio and speakers, came standard. Painful, will have to replace.
Fuses got old, caused problems, had to replace. Not expensive, but I've
never had to do that with any other car in my whole entire life.


Work done on my 1988 Toyota Camry with 166,000 miles on it (recently sold it): Oil gasket leak, easy fix, $20, New CV joints needed at 155k $300,
a/c worked great, needed nothing. Car purred like a kitten.

Work on my 1990 Acura Legend. Had it up to 100k miles. Needed nothing.

I've owned several other Camry's, with 80k on them, needed nothing.

Several Honda Accords, up to 90k. Needed nothing.

1999 Toyota Avalon sold at 40k, needed nothing.

All of those Jap cars are easy candidates to get what the MB is capable of, 300k miles (the diesels can go more, but I understand they need rebuilt around 300k).

I admit the Mercedes has a nicer feel than a Camry or Accord, but they're not in the same class, either. If you compare a 1991 MB to a 1991 Jap car, the MB would probably win, by a bit, as far as how it handles, quiet, etc. But I'll bet by 1997 or so, the gap narrowed. MB still made cars with bad a/c's, and they made the entire cars WORSE from what I've heard. They went DOWN in quality while the Japs went up. I'm figuring at this point, the luxury Jap cars are far better. I even heard MB changed their steering box to a power steering unit similar to Jap cars.

MB's of today (current models like from 1997 and forward) are nothing but a nameplate at this point from what I've heard. You're paying at least 15,000 for a 3 star circle. As to the older cars, in my view, which is different from yours and that's okay, they require more repairs than they should. Problems such as a/c should have been addressed when problems were found. But they weren't. Seat springs, ditto. Oil gaskets, ditto. But it's just my opinion, and that's all I have to say about it. Goodbye.

jeff

To suggest that MBs are nothing but a nameplate from 1997 is just pure poppycock. It was 1996.

The gap between a 2006 Acura MDX and BMW X5 is pretty wide, the Acura is a step down. The Germans still have it, the old ML was a pos, the new one is rather nice. Still not an ML fan.

I sudjest one actualy drive and live with a late model MB for a while before passing judgment. The W140 is a BETTER car than my W126 in so many ways. Buy both and you will understand. The new W221 makes my old W126 look and feel cheap. The interior is in on a whole other level.:cool:

My dads friends son just turned 16 and got a 1989 Camry. Yeah it does get you there I gues, makes a bike look tempting though.:D

No, I never did buy it. After hearing that $12K was way too steep, I totally marked it off of my lists. THEN, the same MERCEDES dealership had/has a 1994 S420, with 149K for $4995. Stated to be original owner, excellent condition, well maintained, ALL RECORDS, like new, black on black. I have saw photos and it is a beautiful car.

Then everyone started telling me about the A/C horror stories and the interior and underhood wiring woes and I thought that this car may end up putting me in bankruptcy with repair costs. What I do not understand- why if the A/C (removal of the entire dash) and the wiring woes are so common on these cars- why has NHTSA not demanded a recall? Especially on the wiring, which could be a safety hazard.

Who knows, since this was a 1-owner, well maintained car, I suppose its possible that all of these things have already been addressed, OR it may be why the owner is selling it. :confused: :)

UPDATE- I just went to their website and the mentioned black Mercedes above has been SOLD. I made a mistake on the miles though. It had 164K. Hopefully whoever bought it will not have to deal with these woes.

I guess it all depends on what is a priority to you
Do you want to drive something 200K( or more) and not have to spend any money on it for the most part?
or does a few( maybe several) thousand dollars in repairs bother you at all?

As for the comment about someone listing 15 years of repairs on their car...trust me if you had owned a 140 for 5-6 years you would know that you would pray for a repair list like that in 15 years.

And by the way the comment about the good stereo....always been an issue with me on why the older cars had such crappy stereos....they FINALLY got a clue in 1992 with the 140 and in 1996 with the 210

But I have to say that for the used car selling prices right now on the 140( and even the newer 220) its one heck of a buy even if you have to do an ac evap core....but ones older that 1997 have probably already had that done at least once anyway.
I have never known anyone who had a 140 older than 6 years old that has had not had to have the AC evap done...my personal car had it done twice....once under the orginal owner when the car was 3 years old and once when I owned it whan the car was 7 years old.

But getting back to the used cars values...still a heck of a car and I think the prevailing prices are becuse people know that you need a reserve for repairs when you buy one. Based on early 220 prices currently...(20-25K) with 70-80K miles it seems that the same applies.
I was looking at a 2001 S500 this morning with 85K miles for $22,500..original sticker was $92,000...one owner ..great condition..thats 75% off


Warren
2000 BMW 740I
1992 300SD( sold)
1992 300D( sold)
1985 300SD( sold)
Columbus Ohio